The Biblical View regarding Divorce

[WayneB]

Brothers and Sisters,

This is a discussion between tsth and LadyC regarding the Biblical view on Divorce.

Guidelines for the discussion!

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

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4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

Let's pray for God's TRUTH to be revealed through this discussion.

May the Lord Bless us,

wayne

[Guest LadyC]

Alrighty, i'm online first, so i guess i'll post the opener.... in the divorce/remarriage thread, you'd posed a question to me, and i'd responded with one of my own, but because of the many distractions, we were unable to really get into a discussion over it. so i'm going to start by quoting our original exchange, and let you respond first.... i've got a "date" with my grandson's pediatrician in a little bit, so it may be after lunch before i can get back online. (feel free to say a prayer for the little tyke, he's been quite sick for the last few days!)

QUOTE(LadyC @ Jul 18 2007, 12:37 PM) *

this appears to be another "divorce is the unpardonable sin" thread. rolleyes.gif

when we turn our lives over to Christ, our past is wiped clean. our sins are forgiven. they are remembered no more. i thank God for BLESSING me with my current husband. (although there have been times when it almost felt like a curse instead of a blessing!) bottom line is, GOD brought mark into my life. HE had a purpose for us. the sins of my previous life, including my first marriage/subsequent divorce, has been forgiven, and forgotten. i am so grateful for this grace in which i now stand.

QUOTE (tsth)

I know that there are many in this day and time who are divorced, but that doesn't mean that we neglect correct teachings for the next generation coming up behind us.

Couldn't you agree that we still need to teach the next generation differently?

In His Love,

Suzanne

QUOTE (LadyC)

suzanne, please help me understand what exactly you're asking. do you mean shouldn't we teach the next generation that divorce is unforgivable, and that under no circumstances can a divorced person who obtained a divorce outside of biblical exceptions ever remarry? should we teach our kids that even if they turn their lives over to God after a divorce, they are still bound forever and ever to their first spouse, and that if they choose to remarry after submitting their lives to God that they will be living in a constant state of adultry? (and pair that with the fact that God says that those who live adulterous lives will never enter heaven...)

absolutely NOT.

or do you mean that we should teach our children and grandchildren how crucial it is that they not enter into marriage lightly, that marriage is a commitment that requires a lot of work, that the emotional "in love" stuff is fleeting and that true love is overcoming trials, that divorce is not an "easy out" and shouldn't be considered an option, unless it falls within the biblical guidelines?

absolutely YES.

Edited July 26, 2007 by LadyC

[tsth]

Good morning LadyC,

I want to start off by stating that this topic has been on the forefront of my mind and heart for sometime now. I have discussed this issue many times with my husband, and I will begin by stating right off the bat, that I do not even pretend to know if after one has divorced the partner of the first marriage, if in God's eyes they are supposed to return to THAT person (after a remarriage and 2nd family is established). In my mind, it seems like this would be a 2nd wrong committed and therefore doesn't seem to be a right remedy.....however, I DO FIRMLY BELIEVE, that in spite of the many occasions of divorce in this day and time, we are walking in a way that is very destructive with regard to divorce. I think if we're ever going to change our divorce practices as a culture, it has to begin with the understanding of what God says about both marriage AND divorce, as you must have biblical references to both, to have a complete godly understanding of the issue.

God has given us references of BOTH marriage and divorce, in regard to Himself, in the Scriptures. These are the foundations I would like to look at.

With regard to your questions:

do you mean shouldn't we teach the next generation that divorce is unforgivable, and that under no circumstances can a divorced person who obtained a divorce outside of biblical exceptions ever remarry? should we teach our kids that even if they turn their lives over to God after a divorce, they are still bound forever and ever to their first spouse, and that if they choose to remarry after submitting their lives to God that they will be living in a constant state of adultry? (and pair that with the fact that God says that those who live adulterous lives will never enter heaven...)

absolutely NOT.

or do you mean that we should teach our children and grandchildren how crucial it is that they not enter into marriage lightly, that marriage is a commitment that requires a lot of work, that the emotional "in love" stuff is fleeting and that true love is overcoming trials, that divorce is not an "easy out" and shouldn't be considered an option, unless it falls within the biblical guidelines?

absolutely YES.

I think we are somewhat in agreement, but the problem is SPECIFICS. Just by your first statement alone, there is evidence to suggest what I believe is the already "preconcieved" ideas about divorce, that is already predominant in the hearts of our children, whether we will acknowledge it or not. Our kids are already conditioned waaaay before they hit the marrying age, that it is acceptable to divorce if for some reason the marriage doesn't work out. Sub-consciously the seriousness of the covenant of marriage is already marred somewhat, because of the "built-in, unspoken divorce concept". If as a culture we're practicing throw-away marriage, it will continue on until we do something different. So, in essence we've got to start ALL OVER, to re-condition our kids/this culture in the view of divorce. (I don't see how anyone could deny that no matter what we say to our kids, they see what IS DONE.) That IS the plumbline in regard to divorce....THAT is why we keep on divorcing in this culture, because we have a pre-set view that it is acceptable. We can talk about it being wrong all day long, but unless we give a foundation, a strong foundation for why it is wrong, then the society will continue to do what it has always done, and the fruit is already bearing out. They are now getting a mindset of "well, it's better to just test-drive (live together), rather than divorce, so they think they're avoiding the divorce issue, but instead are creating a whole other sin issue(fornication). So, to me, it seemed obvious that we've got to start re-teaching our kids, biblically. We've got to start showing our kids the truth about what God says about it, even when we've practiced divorce. We as a culture, as a whole, as Christians, have got to start admitting to our children that we did not know the godly principals, the biblical specifics, with regard to marriage and divorce, but NOW, we do! And we're going to teach differently, because nobody taught us.

(So, what would I tell them? I'd begin with God's Word in regard to the issue.....so, I'll do that in the next post.)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Let's begin with marriage and the man/woman relationship that God instituted:

Gen. 2:18 The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Gen. 2:21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Order of Authority/Covering?

1 Cor. 11:8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

If you've ever noticed, in Scriptures man is NEVER given over to a woman in marriage.

However, the conditions or the state of a woman are prominent in Scriptures, with regard to a man....they are as such:

According to Scriptures an unmarried woman is listed only in one of these conditions:

1. Virgin

2. Widow

3. Adulteress

I will show you what I mean....the first 2 are self-explanatory. It is the last one that we are having trouble with. But, to do what is right, we MUST go back to the Word, to understand the conditions and order of marriage. We have also got to start teaching our daughters and sons what the Word of God says about marriages, especially understanding the implications of a marriage being a covenant. THIS is vital to our kids having a correct understanding and yes, even moving closer to the idea that divorce is NOT acceptable. If we agree that divorce is not a "good" thing, then we must teach it as well. We've got to get rid of the built-in divorce default idea in our culture....it is not right.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest LadyC]

well so far i can't disagree with anything you've said. this may very well turn out to be the most bland "soapbox debate" ever. but hopefully, if nothing else, it will be a very informative and educational one for others that may read it.

first thing i'd like to do is address this comment:

and I will begin by stating right off the bat, that I do not even pretend to know if after one has divorced the partner of the first marriage, if in God's eyes they are supposed to return to THAT person (after a remarriage and 2nd family is established). In my mind, it seems like this would be a 2nd wrong committed and therefore doesn't seem to be a right remedy.....

yes, that would be a second wrong committed and is not a right remedy.... and i can say that with confidence because, even though you don't appear to realize it, your opinion is very biblical.

Deuteronomy 24

1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

so there's the scriptural support for the opinion you voiced.

now, i can see it's going to be difficult to stick to the rule to stay on topic, because since what we're debating is HOW, and WHAT to teach our children regarding divorce, it's not really possible to do so without, as you suggested, debating how and what to teach our children about marriage. and boy, that is really extensive.

since you've gotten off to such a good start, i'd like to expand on the "authority" part and introduce the issue of servitude within a marriage... on a non-christian board i belong to, i am almost daily amazed at how many women believe that the husband should have absolutely no authority over them whatsoever. the women seem to believe that if she wants to have close friends of the opposite sex, hang out with them privately, confide in them, or anything else they want to do EVEN if the husband objects, (and he should!)... the opposite sex friendships are really just one example. the bottom line is, many women seem to be of the opinion that if a husband has anything to say about a woman's choices, that he is being obsessive, possessive, and even abusive to his wife.

i think it's critical that we teach our children what God has to say about servitude, about submission. God never meant it to mean being a doormat, and both husband and wife are commanded to serve one another. i guess right now i'm outlining where i'd like to go in this conversation.... i've gotta get my thoughts out before i start putting scriptural references to them, and perhaps along the way you can make suggestions on what may be too far from the original topic, because i could easily stray WAY off the path.

so here's a basic outline.... we HAVE to teach our children

1. the purpose of marriage

2. the correct attitude within a marriage (servitude/submission/authority)

3. the importance of sexual purity prior to marriage

4. the importance of sexual purity WITHIN a marriage (not defiling the marriage bed)

5. how a marriage between a man and a woman reflects the relationship of Christ and the church

and we can get into those areas, providing the mods don't think that is getting off topic.

but then there's also the aspect of divorce.... unfortunately, society (and even parental examples) have taught this generation that there is a broad range of legitimate reasons for divorce... but it isn't broad. the ONLY ground for divorce provided for in scripture is adultery. as much as we'd like to include abuse, or abandonment, or anything else, sexual immorality is the only allowance Jesus made for divorce. now, the OT has plenty of examples of divorce for other reasons, but none of those reasons are given the stamp of approval by God.

it's difficult to undo the brainwashing our children have been subjected to, but it can be done. whether we begin teaching them the Biblical perspective on marriage and divorce from infancy, or whether we begin teaching them after they've already been traumatized by a divorce between their parents, or whether we begin teaching them by example in a subsequent marriage, it CAN be done. obviously teaching them from infancy, and without the children ever living through a divorce is going to have much better results.

so what i'd like to cover in regards to what to teach our children, who are already conditioned to take divorce for granted, are the following points:

1. the biblical ground for divorce (adultery only)

2. this is a last resort and should never be considered an escape clause

3. unbiblical divorce sets up both spouses to commit adultery, even if they're no longer married

4. REPENTANCE can restore one's relationship to God

5. remarriage after repentance is not a sin, nor does the remarried individual commit adultery

6. although the SIN of divorce/adultery has been erased, the earthly consequences are not.

in essence, we have to teach our children how to walk with God, talk with God, and stay true in their relationship to God. as long as they DO this, then their attitude towards marriage and divorce would be in keeping with our Father's commands, and we'd see a much lower divorce rate.

ok, now that i've given a lot of dribble, help direct me as to what areas i should start with when providing scriptural support....

Edited July 26, 2007 by LadyC

[tsth]

Well, ok, let's see how much we agree on the "purpose of marriage" issue?

I think this one is probably THE most difficult to accept Scripturally:

It is the condition/state of the woman. With regard to the marriage/divorce/adultery issue, it is always contingent on the woman.

The 3 conditions of a woman I mentioned above are so important to understand.

1. Virgin

2. Widow

3. Adulteress

And every Christian young man needs to take these into consideration.

This should be a starting place.

The Christian young man or woman should be only considering a Christian mate when addressing a portion of the purpose of marriage:

Ezra 9 1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness." 3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.

10 "But now, O our God, what can we say after this? For we have disregarded the commands 11 you gave through your servants the prophets when you said: 'The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of its peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. 12 Therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them at any time, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it to your children as an everlasting inheritance.' 13 "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this. 14 Shall we again break your commands and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor? 15 O Lord, God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."

(Note: The end of Ezra is pretty hard to take......they end up casting out the wives and children who were of pagan decent.)

To me, the ultimate picture of why we marry in terms of God's reasoning is found in Mal. 2, it is also followed up with why divorce is not acceptable.....So, if we begin right, as instructed, then we should not have to contend with the divorce issue:

Malachi 2:11 Judah has broken faith. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the Lord loves, by marrying the daughter of a foreign god.

13 Another thing you do: You flood the Lord's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. 14 You ask, "Why?" It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. 15 Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. 16 "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the Lord Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

Would you share your Scriptural views on the purpose of marriage too? I would like to see them.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest LadyC]

interesting passages there, but i'm a bit confused on how they lay out God's purpose for marriage.

my views on the purpose of marriage are layered.

1. so the husband will have a helpmate. (gen 2: 18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.")

2. to become one in the flesh.... two people, one flesh... it's a physical representation of the triune nature of God. in gen. 2, adam says that eve is bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, and she shall be called woman.

3. to reproduce. many people think this was simply a command, but in truth, reproduction was far more than an obligation or requirement, it was a BLESSING. gen. 1 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

4. for mutual sensual pleasure. this is more than just a moral outlet for sexual satisfaction that is inherent to our nature, (1 cor 7:2) but for emotional and physical enjoyment. 1 cor 7 goes on to point out that neither the husband nor the wife has the right to defraud the other of this pleasure. the entire book of solomon describes the joy we should find in this pleasure.

5. for the care and provision of the woman. that one may seem slightly out of keeping with traditional theology, and at the moment i'm too lazy to try to find a specific passage to back it up, but let me elaborate on this point purely from my own perspective...

you pointed out the three conditions (classifications may be a better term?) of a woman... virgin, widow, or adulteress. it may be pointing out the obvious, but i think we should add a fourth classification to your list... wife.

a virgin is provided for by her family.... typically her father, but if the father is deceased, that responsibility would fall upon the brothers, if she has any.

a wife is provided for by her husband.

a widow is provided for by her children.

a woman who does not fit into these three categories fends for herself by exchanging sexual favors for provisions... i.e. an adulteress. or prostitute. now granted, there were some exceptions, (ruth, for example, who had no children to provide for her, but chose to glean the fields to provide for herself and her MIL, without having having to exchange sexual favors), but in general, that's pretty much the way it was.

[tsth]

interesting passages there, but i'm a bit confused on how they lay out God's purpose for marriage.

My mistake, I think the passages were to point out what I think should be first in regard to marriage for the Christian, it is to marry another believer. I'm afraid that today's kids may not be marrying believers because they themselves are not truly believers. (but that's for another post, isn't it.)

you pointed out the three conditions (classifications may be a better term?) of a woman... virgin, widow, or adulteress. it may be pointing out the obvious, but i think we should add a fourth classification to your list... wife.

a virgin is provided for by her family.... typically her father, but if the father is deceased, that responsibility would fall upon the brothers, if she has any.

a wife is provided for by her husband.

a widow is provided for by her children.

a woman who does not fit into these three categories fends for herself by exchanging sexual favors for provisions... i.e. an adulteress. or prostitute. now granted, there were some exceptions, (ruth, for example, who had no children to provide for her, but chose to glean the fields to provide for herself and her MIL, without having having to exchange sexual favors), but in general, that's pretty much the way it was.

I think I listed them as the ONLY classifications for an unmarried woman. Which does not include the term divorcee. There is no acceptable biblical term for a divorced woman. I hate to say it, but I believe that is why in generations past, a divorced woman was pretty much "labeled". Because technically, a woman who was divorced was divorced due to the biblical reason, which was "adultery/adulteress", and a wife did not divorce a husband, only a husband (Scripturally) puts away a wife. He is not supposed to put her away for ANY REASON......only adultery. Thus, if a woman was divorced, it was not a good stigma. I think this is what is the hardest to accept. I also think that we need to get rid of the "what if" mindset in regard to marriage/divorce. It seems as though this is always the catch-phrase clause put in place to ensure that the divorce idea is not very far away if necessary..."What if" we began the thought process on marriage without a "what if" clause? We might be less likely to rush into a marriage, as women....not to mention the type of counsel we would get from those closest to us, if they were spotting "red flags", that we might not be seeing. If our closest loved ones also took the marriage issue to the serious degree that the covenant really is, then they might be more likely to speak up when spotting trouble. But today, everyone knows that divorce is ALWAYS an option if you get hold of a "bad" one. I mean, fathers aren't even speaking up, or trying to intervene in these issues, and I don't know why they do not.

I deem from the Scriptures that a wife trusts in God to deal with a husband who will not do what is right. Which would bring to mind this passage:

1Peter 3:5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

I am glad that you listed out the specifics of order and provisions. This is something that today's culture doesn't care to recognize much. (I remember the days when I used to bristle at the idea)....I now know what a blessing the instruction from God's Word in regard to this matter, is. My life, our marriage, our home has wonderful peace when we began to understand the correct order of authority within the marriage. It affects the whole family and atmosphere of the home.

I cannot find any passage of Scripture that speaks of a woman divorcing a man? I am sometimes amazed at how far away from the Biblical instructions we are as a society.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Here are some of the passages with regard to the woman and divorce:

Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Matt. 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10:11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

I stand corrected here, a woman does divorce a husband in the above. But, if she remarries, she commits adultery.

A woman is released from the covenant of marriage IF her husband dies:

Romans 7:2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

There are more, but I need to stop for now.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest LadyC]

we seem to be in agreement on everything. i'm not sure this could even be called a debate LOL.

i'm gonna go act like a proper wife and be a good helpmate and do a little housework. maybe i'll think of a point to debate by the time i get finished

oops, just noticed i missed your last post. i'd better read it before doing my housework.

Edited July 26, 2007 by LadyC