The Biblical View regarding Divorce

[Guest LadyC]

oh wait, now we're back to the issue of divorce itself. wayne, please don't lock this up, i would like to address this.

[tsth]

Yeah, I was thinkin you'd probaby have somethin to say on that one.

I'll be leaving in just a few, and won't be able to view anything till in the morning. See you then.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited July 26, 2007 by tsth

[Guest LadyC]

ok, here's where the root of our soapbox debate starts... with what do we teach our children about divorce itself? we both agree on how critical it is that we teach them what a biblical marriage is, and aside from making this a bible study on those aspects, i think we can set that part to the sideline for the moment.

you provide very good scriptures in that last post. i totally agree with them, and that they should be taught to our children. the problem that i'm seeing in the many lively and heated threads on the subject though is that people either try to either twist those passages to fit what they want to hear (justifying divorce/remarriage), or they STOP with those passages and disregard GRACE.

i am not interested in twisting the passages you provided... i think they're perfect the way they are. however, they are incomplete.

1 corinthians chapter 7 is all about marriage and divorce. there are a couple of verses that i'm going to pull out of the middle here. feel free to read the surrounding verses, you'll find they do not change the context.

27Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

28But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

herein lies the message of grace and forgiveness in regards to divorce. it doesn't change the biblical expectation of keeping the marriage intact... in fact, it expresses quite nicely the standard already set forth in the chapter, and in the verses you posted.

are you married? do NOT seek a divorce.

are you divorced? do NOT seek a wife.

BUT and IF you do get married again, you haven't sinned, just as a virgin marrying for the first time has not sinned. now, the passage here is directed at believers, not at unbelievers. it's not talking to people who have not repented of their transgressions, it's not talking to people who don't understand that we are to continue to be repentant when we mess up and sin.

so, given who it is addressing, it seems pretty clear that for the person who has sinned, who has subsequently REPENTED, their past is forgiven them. we know from scripture that when we ask forgiveness from God, He casts our sin as far as the east is from the west, and remembers our sin no more. we are made whole, our slate is wiped clean, it is as if we'd never committed the sin in the first place, as far as God is concerned.

still though, the passage points out that while GOD spares the individual from the eternal consequences, there are still natural consequences to deal with. we'll still have trouble in the flesh.

it doesn't go into detail about what kind of trouble, and i'm sure that varies from one person to the next. but i have no doubt that it includes marital discord with the new spouse, perhaps more so than in a first marriage... if there are any children involved, it's almost sure to cause discord in the blended family... and almost certainly jealousy between the former spouse and the new spouse, because let's face it, someone else is now raising their children. if the individual has a position of authority in the church, he may very well LOSE that position... those are consequences God will not protect us from. the only thing we're spared is the judgment to hell for living in a perpetual state of adultery... we're no longer in bondage to our previous sin, nor to our previous spouse, AFTER we have repented.

now don't get me wrong. i'm not saying this should be the focal point of what we teach our children. far from it, in fact! but i do think it's very important that we do include this passage when we're teaching our children what God has to say. hopefully our children will take marriage seriously, never get divorced, and live happily ever after. but they MUST be taught that repentance brings forgiveness, and that if a person has repented, they can remarry.

why is that so critical? because even if they never face this in their own lives, a lack of knowledge on this aspect tends to cause people to become very legalistic. i've seen people here get ripped to shreds by others because they're "living in constant adultery". and i've ALSO seen people here who believed that they themselves were committing adultery every single time they were intimate with their spouse.

that saddens me. i've heard two different people on the boards over the years express that sentiment. they are still living in bondage. they're under this tremendous weight of guilt that prevents them from being a godly husband or wife to the person they're now married to.

God doesn't want them to live like that!

Edited July 26, 2007 by LadyC

[tsth]

Dear LadyC,

With regard to the passages from 1 Cor. 7 that you are commenting on, those are not in regard to divorce. Very clearly Paul is instructing those who are married, or who have divorced due to adultery. The reason we know that is because directly under the passages you are talking about, he goes right into the instructions for a divorced (woman). He would not say it is ok to remarry in vs. 8, (as you suggest), and then in the very next verse give the command NOT TO REMARRY. It wouldn't make sense. The verses you cite are regarding whether or not to marry....and then if a man was "loosed from a wife" DO NOT REMARRY. Biblically, a man could divorce and adulteress wife, and then remarry a believing virgin OR widow, but not a divorced woman. If he did, (see previous post), he would then be commiting adultery by marrying an adulteress.

1 Cor. 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

(Scripturally, the content is that a divorced woman was not going to be remarried....but could be reconciled with her husband)

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

The example of an adulteress reconciled back to her husband ONLY is a godly example. It is how God Himself dealt with his own betrothed:

Jeremiah 3:1 "If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled? But you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers-- would you now return to me?" declares the Lord. 2 "Look up to the barren heights and see. Is there any place where you have not been ravished? By the roadside you sat waiting for lovers, sat like a nomad in the desert. You have defiled the land with your prostitution and wickedness. 3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and no spring rains have fallen. Yet you have the brazen look of a prostitute; you refuse to blush with shame.

7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the Lord. 11 The Lord said to me, "Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah.

12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north: "'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the Lord, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,' declares the Lord, 'I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt-- you have rebelled against the Lord your God, you have scattered your favors to foreign gods under every spreading tree, and have not obeyed me,'" declares the Lord. 14 "Return, faithless people," declares the Lord, "for I am your husband. I will choose you--one from a town and two from a clan--and bring you to Zion.

(The picture and example is ALWAYS one of a husband receiving a repentant adulteress wife....and just as God is faithful in His Covenant to not abandon a faithful wife, so must a Christian husband be.)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest LadyC]

no, i disagree. the passage is specifically stated directly to a husband... do not seek a divorce. and if you are divorced, do not seek a new wife... BUT AND IF you marry, you have not sinned.

those aren't my own words, they're directly from the Bible.

and it does make sense in light of the previous scriptures, because the message is GRACE. we are told what is expected of us. we aren't given the "easy out" of a covenant marriage just because we can be forgiven. however, divorce is not the unforgivable sin.

so i'm gathering from your post that we should teach our children that anyone who has divorced for reasons other than an adulterous spouse will go to hell if they ever remarry? after all, neither fornicaters nor adulterers will enter heaven.

and if that is what you are saying, then how do you reconcile that view with God's promise of forgiveness and restoration? do we teach our children that grace does not extend to divorcees?

i suppose if that is your belief, this debate can be closed, because we will be at an impasse, and all points on either side will have been addressed and backed up with scripture.

Edited July 27, 2007 by LadyC

[tsth]

Then who does verse 1 Cor. 7:10 apply to? The 1st 3 words are deliberate in specifying and leave no question.

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited July 28, 2007 by tsth

[tsth]

Something that is interesting to me are the additional words that Jesus spoke with regard to the marriage covenant.

OT verse:

2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

NT Jesus' Words

4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

This is significant for today, but we do not heed this command.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited July 28, 2007 by tsth

[Guest LadyC]

who it is addressing is those who are married.

and so is the passage i hang my position on.

and you still haven't answered my question.

so i'm gathering from your post that we should teach our children that anyone who has divorced for reasons other than an adulterous spouse will go to hell if they ever remarry? after all, neither fornicaters nor adulterers will enter heaven.

and if that is what you are saying, then how do you reconcile that view with God's promise of forgiveness and restoration? do we teach our children that grace does not extend to divorcees?

if we teach our children that there is no grace for someone who has divorced and later repented then remarried, we are teaching our children that there is no reconciliation with God for such person, are we not? we are teaching them that anyone who has divorced and remarriage is living in a perpetual state of adultery.

1cor 6:9, 10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

so, if there is no restoration to Christ for the divorced/remarried, then you're teaching them that there is no such thing as a christian who has been remarried after an unbibilcal divorce.

in which case, i'm just spinning my wheels wasting time, because no matter how close of a relationship i think i have with God, i'm going to spend eternity in hell. i'm totally delusional to think that God will allow me to enter heaven. you're debating with a non-christian right now.

do you see how absurd that sounds when i say that?

furthermore, any person, after having accepted Christ, who has ever had sex outside of marriage and then later married is in the same boat... because:

1 cor 6:15-17 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

now surely that is referring to more than just a hooker there, because it is stating that the two become one flesh. so even though a prostitute is used in the analogy, it could be anyone. there is no forgiveness for those who stumble in sexual immorality, then. if one has erred, has sex before marriage but after Christ, then if they marry down the road to someone other than the 'prostitute' or first person with whom they 'became one flesh', they are also guilty of perpetual adultery.

how then does THIS fit in?

psalm 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,

so great is his love for those who fear him;

12 as far as the east is from the west,

so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

who does the story of the prodigal son apply? (luke 15:11-32) was it just a fluffy feel-good parable with no significance of value to a christian who has strayed from God's will?

if you'd like, i can continue to quote passage after passage of scripture pertaining to forgiveness and reconciliation with God. i could fill up pages here with what God says. but i really don't think that is necessary. still, i'll leave the option up to you so you can choose to respond to each and every passage and indicate where a divorced person is exempt from that forgiveness.

i think we'd do well to teach our children that there is only ONE unforgivable sin, only one thing that will prevent us from being restored WHOLE in the sight of our heavenly father.... and that is specified in matthew 12: 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

(and that God is faithful to His promise, to forgive us for any other sin, wiping our slate clean so that we stand pure before Him, as in the following verse of that same passage.)

13 As a father has compassion on his children,

so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;

now, back to the passage i hang my hope on... the only hope i have of being recognized as one of God's children because i have been divorced and remarried...

i think we should bear in mind that once we have divorced, we no longer have a husband. we become part of the category of "unmarried" people. our spouse has not died, but has been 'put away' through the act of divorce. we are to remain unmarried, it is certainly what scripture lays out as what is best. however, it is STILL better to marry than to burn.

1 cor 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

it does not say "unmarried virgins". it says unmarried. and since virgins is a word commonly used throughout scripture, and EVEN in this chapter on marriage and divorce, seems like God might have spared us the disagreements and the legalism by specifying that it is only better for a virgin or widow to marry than to burn.

and then, again, this... and as much as you might like to disregard this, or to change what it means, in the end this scripture proves without a shadow of a doubt that one who has committed the sin of an unbiblical divorce can be forgiven, and will not be living in a state of perpetual sin should he remarry down the road.

"Are you bound (married) to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed (divorced). Are you loosed (divorced) from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But even if you do marry (after you have been divorced), you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned."

it speaks directly to a man who has been married, and been divorced.

now, would it apply equally to a woman who has been married divorced? i'm running short on time, i have to still get dressed and go pick up my grandson, and i'm already going to be late.... so i'll just briefly say that God is no respecter of people, that scripture indicates that both a husband and a wife are equally made in His image, and that both male and female have the same access to God.... and that it's not uncommon for scripture to direct commands, provisions, promises, and such to the man... it is very uncommon for God to direct His words to a man and then repeat them to a woman, although there are some instances. i would assume this one-sidedness is because at the time He inspired men to put His words on paper, very few women were allowed to learn to read. in fact, very few men were taught to read, unless they were scribes.

so anyway, please... back to my question:

so i'm gathering from your post that we should teach our children that anyone who has divorced for reasons other than an adulterous spouse will go to hell if they ever remarry? after all, neither fornicaters nor adulterers will enter heaven.

and if that is what you are saying, then how do you reconcile that view with God's promise of forgiveness and restoration? do we teach our children that grace does not extend to divorcees?

if i were to meet your children, would you teach them that i would not be able to enter heaven? (sorry, my purpose for asking the personal question is not to put you on the spot and force political correctness, but to force you to deal personally with how we teach our children about forgiveness and who it applies to. please don't be PC in your answer. if your position is accurate, then you will have to teach them that people like me are not going to be in heaven. i submit that your position is an incomplete analysis of scripture, and i stand on His promise that i will walk those streets of gold right alongside of you.)

Edited July 28, 2007 by LadyC

[tsth]

so i'm gathering from your post that we should teach our children that anyone who has divorced for reasons other than an adulterous spouse will go to hell if they ever remarry? after all, neither fornicaters nor adulterers will enter heaven.

and if that is what you are saying, then how do you reconcile that view with God's promise of forgiveness and restoration? do we teach our children that grace does not extend to divorcees?

No, what you're gathering, is that I would teach my children what the Word of God clearly says about marriage and divorce. I have not said anything other than that. So, that they will have a correct foundation to begin with, rather than giving them a foundation with a built-in divorce clause, which is what most of today's kids ALREADY have. You can ask any kid if divorce is acceptable in today's world, and they will answer yes.

In regard to "grace" which do you believe is more loving to a child?..................giving a strong foundation on which to approach the covenant of marriage or keep the divorce clause in tact which is what we have continued to do?

You keep addressing the divorce issue from an unbelievers viewpoint, and I want to address it from a believer's viewpoint. If my children are believers, and they marry believers, would there be room for divorce? In what case?

The issue was not "grace", which is a totally different topic. The issue is "biblical" marriage and divorce, which I have testified to with regard to Scripture...and that is what I will teach my children.

Now, if you want to change the subject, and ask me what would I tell if they should ask about a divorced person's status, that's fine, but it is not what the topic is about. The subject is what does the Bible say about marriage and divorce. I have clearly shared the Scriptures with regard to the issue.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Edited July 28, 2007 by tsth

[tsth]

Here is what I would tell them with regard to a divorced person:

The Word of God clearly states that God hates divorce. And, that a husband is to take a wife for life, to care for her and love her, and she is to respond with the same for him, along with respect. Biblically there was not to be divorce, but because of adultery, Moses gave them certificates of divorce to be able to put their wives away. THAT was the ONLY reason given as allowable, BUT they began divorcing for any and every reason....this was not supposed to happen.

Today, people are divorcing because they are not being taught correctly with regard to God's Word, (I blame the pastors, but the people are responsible as well to read God's Word and believe It) So, because of this practice, I do not know what God will have to say about it? I ONLY KNOW what has been revealed within God's Word to me, so I am passing this along to you, as my child. God hates divorce. He wants us to believe in Him and marry spouses who believe in Him. IF you do this, then you should not have to encounter a situation of divorce....for you will both GROW in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word, TOGETHER, as ONE.

LadyC, the problem of rampant divorce is due to our inclination to keep planting the same seeds, therefore we keep getting the same crop. Our crop will not change until the seeds we plant changes.

In His Love,

Suzanne