Demonic bondage vs Mental Illness

[Redefine_Me]

I have been adjucated as "severely mentally ill." I cannot work, do not go out in public (much) and spend much of my time here at Worthy laboring for our Lord. Many times, as Paul did in 2 Corinthians 12, I have prayed for relief, and many times I have been denied. As Paul, "...I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful." (2 Corinthians 12:10).

I do not blame demons for my illness, just as I do not blame God for it. Rather, I thank Him for the opportunity to serve those who are like me, suffering quietly, at times, behind a mask and often overlooked by others.

I am on medications, and, unless the Lord sees fit, probably will be for life. My illness is a "life sentence" that can be treated but cannot be cured by medicine as we know it now. True, God can relieve me of this burden in a nanosecond, but why? Would I like to be released from this prison? Of course! But I remember this is all about HIM, not ME. Job was afflicted for no apparent reason, he "... was perfect and upright, and one who feared God and turned aside from evil." (Job 1:1) Job's distress was far greater than I can contemplate; this little burden I carry seems far too inconsequential to complain about when compared to what Job endured (and triumphed over).

We are to do all for His greater glory, and if God desires me to carry this little cross, I am all for it! I hate taking the medicine (even though it smells of vanilla, lol) but know I need to do so to maintain my equilibrium. If this is ALL He has for me to bear, I praise Him and count myself blessed, indeed!

Chief, thank you so much for sharing this

[Guest Robert R]

I really do not understand your question. I make that statement about churches as a whole because I have attended many. Been a member at a couple. I am even licensed by one and hold ordination with its denomination. I know several "awesome" churches. I am by no means saying that all churches are luke warm. I am merely stating the obvious that the church as a whole has become luke warm. That is of no surprise considering Christ prophesied this would happen. The church as a whole is lukewarm. Remnants are not. However, there are not within reasonable driving distance any churches I would consider on fire.. I would much rather gather together with 15 or so people in our homes and have bible study than go to the traditional church building.

Sorry, my question was lost in the mess.

My question is how do you say,

"There is no mental illness where the church ministers deliverance" and then say you do go to church... so to say. ??

How do we minister to those who have bought into the deception when we have separated ourselves from making a difference??

When I am not doing a service and I have to 'go' to church (local believing body/building/gathering), even when I recoil at some of the deadness and bondage. I still am required by the Lord to speak life into those the Lord sends me one at time..

I pray for the Pastor to move into the higher calling.. apply Grace to the things that don't quiet add up.

I am expecting the Lord to move on the body of Christ and bring about the brokeness it takes to see the latter rain harvest.

Church needs healing first before we will be able to bring in those who are broken and beat down..

We need a revelation of what "sin" truly is. God's perspective on it..

There is an awakening... it is getting back to the basics. I choose to minister inside and out..

Sure, I get a lot of rejection for my stand.. I have learned to leave those up to the Lord.

Sure beats being offended and picking up them devil darts...

Just my opinion...

Blessings, Karen

OK, I understand now. I know several churches who are extremely active in the deliverance ministry. I know many of their members and even occasionally attend the churches, long drive.

[Guest The Chief]

I have been adjucated as "severely mentally ill." I cannot work, do not go out in public (much) and spend much of my time here at Worthy laboring for our Lord. Many times, as Paul did in 2 Corinthians 12, I have prayed for relief, and many times I have been denied. As Paul, "...I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful." (2 Corinthians 12:10).

I do not blame demons for my illness, just as I do not blame God for it. Rather, I thank Him for the opportunity to serve those who are like me, suffering quietly, at times, behind a mask and often overlooked by others.

I am on medications, and, unless the Lord sees fit, probably will be for life. My illness is a "life sentence" that can be treated but cannot be cured by medicine as we know it now. True, God can relieve me of this burden in a nanosecond, but why? Would I like to be released from this prison? Of course! But I remember this is all about HIM, not ME. Job was afflicted for no apparent reason, he "... was perfect and upright, and one who feared God and turned aside from evil." (Job 1:1) Job's distress was far greater than I can contemplate; this little burden I carry seems far too inconsequential to complain about when compared to what Job endured (and triumphed over).

We are to do all for His greater glory, and if God desires me to carry this little cross, I am all for it! I hate taking the medicine (even though it smells of vanilla, lol) but know I need to do so to maintain my equilibrium. If this is ALL He has for me to bear, I praise Him and count myself blessed, indeed!

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, simply making a couple of points. It can in no way be shown in scripture that Paul's thorn in the flesh was physical sickness. The Greek text plainly says that his thorn was an angel of Satan sent to buffett his ministry. The physical ailments suffered by Paul were all due to beatings, roddings, etc that he suffered at the hands of men. The Demon was attacking his ministry, there is ample evidence to support that. The demon was even driving men to attack Paul, but the demon was not directly causing Paul to be sick. There is not scriptural evidence that can be presented to say the thorn was physical sickness. To contend that Paul's thorn in the Flesh was sickness is merely adding 2 and two and arriving at 5. The text is plain on the issue of the thorn. The text plainly states that the thorn was a messenger/angel (words in Greek are interchangable) of Satan.

Job's trials were pre-cavalry. They were even pre-old covenant. Job did not have the covenant authority given him that we as new covenant believers have been given.

Scofield: "It has been conjectured that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was chronic ophthalmia, inducing bodily weakness, and a repulsive appearance (Galatians 4:15); (1 Corinthians 2:3); (1 Corinthians 2:4); (2 Corinthians 10:10). This cannot be positively known, and the reserve of Scripture is as sure a mark of inspiration as its revelations. Paul's particular "thorn" is not described that his consolations may avail for all to who any thorn is given."

Robertson's Word Pictures: "A thorn in the flesh (skolops tēi sarki). This old word is used for splinter, stake, thorn. In the papyri and inscriptions examples occur both for splinter and thorn as the meaning. In the lxx it is usually thorn. The case of tēi sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). It is a blessing to the rest of us that we do not know the particular affliction that so beset Paul. Each of us has some such splinter or thorn in the flesh, perhaps several at once. Messenger of Satan (aggelos Satana). Angel of Satan, the affliction personified."

Albert Barnes: "The messenger of Satan - Among the Hebrews it was customary to attribute severe and painful diseases to Satan; compare Job 2:6-7; compare note on Luke 13:16. In the time of the Saviour malignant spirits are known to have taken possession of the body in numerous cases, and to have produced painful bodily diseases, and Paul here says that Satan was permitted to bring this calamity on him."

Adam Clarke: "The word σκολοψ signifies a stake, and ανασκολοπιζεσθαι, to be tied to a stake by way of punishment; and it is used, says Schoettgen, to signify the most oppressive afflictions. Whatever it was, it was τῃ σαρκι, in the flesh, i.e. of an outward kind. It was neither sin nor sinfulness, for this could not be given him to prevent his being exalted above measure; for sin never had and never can have this tendency. What this thorn in the flesh might be has given birth to a multitude of conjectures: Tertullian thought it dolor auriculae, the ear ache; Chrysostom, κεφαλαλγια, the head ache; Cyprian, carnis et corporis multa ac gravia tormenta, many and grievous bodily torments."

Matthew Henry: "The apostle was pained with a thorn in the flesh, and buffeted with a messenger of Satan, 2 Corinthians 12:7. We are much in the dark what this was, whether some great trouble or some great temptation. Some think it was an acute bodily pain or sickness; others think it was the indignities done him by the false apostles, and the opposition he met with from them, particularly on the account of his speech, which was contemptible. However this was, God often brings this good out of evil, that the reproaches of our enemies help to hide pride from us; and this is certain, that what the apostle calls a thorn in his flesh was for a time very grievous to him: but the thorns Christ wore for us, and with which he was crowned, sanctify and make easy all the thorns in the flesh we may at any time be afflicted with; for he suffered, being tempted, that he might be able to succour those that are tempted. Temptations to sin are most grievous thorns; they are messengers of Satan, to buffet us. Indeed it is a great grievance to a good man to be so much as tempted to sin."

"Job did not have the covenant authority given him that we as new covenant believers have been given."

Authority to...what? Show me in the Scriptures where we as believers are told to order off demons, etc...

John 14:12? " Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." Sorry, can't agree there. Barnes, again: "The word 'greater' cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead. But, though not greater in themselves considered, yet they were greater in their effects. They made a deeper impression on mankind. They were attended with more extensive results. They were the means of the conversion of more sinners. The works of Jesus were confined to Judea. They were seen by few. The works of the apostles were witnessed by many nations, and the effect of their miracles and preaching was that thousands from among the Jews and Gentiles were converted to the Christian faith. The word

[Guest Robert R]

I have been adjucated as "severely mentally ill." I cannot work, do not go out in public (much) and spend much of my time here at Worthy laboring for our Lord. Many times, as Paul did in 2 Corinthians 12, I have prayed for relief, and many times I have been denied. As Paul, "...I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful." (2 Corinthians 12:10).

I do not blame demons for my illness, just as I do not blame God for it. Rather, I thank Him for the opportunity to serve those who are like me, suffering quietly, at times, behind a mask and often overlooked by others.

I am on medications, and, unless the Lord sees fit, probably will be for life. My illness is a "life sentence" that can be treated but cannot be cured by medicine as we know it now. True, God can relieve me of this burden in a nanosecond, but why? Would I like to be released from this prison? Of course! But I remember this is all about HIM, not ME. Job was afflicted for no apparent reason, he "... was perfect and upright, and one who feared God and turned aside from evil." (Job 1:1) Job's distress was far greater than I can contemplate; this little burden I carry seems far too inconsequential to complain about when compared to what Job endured (and triumphed over).

We are to do all for His greater glory, and if God desires me to carry this little cross, I am all for it! I hate taking the medicine (even though it smells of vanilla, lol) but know I need to do so to maintain my equilibrium. If this is ALL He has for me to bear, I praise Him and count myself blessed, indeed!

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, simply making a couple of points. It can in no way be shown in scripture that Paul's thorn in the flesh was physical sickness. The Greek text plainly says that his thorn was an angel of Satan sent to buffett his ministry. The physical ailments suffered by Paul were all due to beatings, roddings, etc that he suffered at the hands of men. The Demon was attacking his ministry, there is ample evidence to support that. The demon was even driving men to attack Paul, but the demon was not directly causing Paul to be sick. There is not scriptural evidence that can be presented to say the thorn was physical sickness. To contend that Paul's thorn in the Flesh was sickness is merely adding 2 and two and arriving at 5. The text is plain on the issue of the thorn. The text plainly states that the thorn was a messenger/angel (words in Greek are interchangable) of Satan.

Job's trials were pre-cavalry. They were even pre-old covenant. Job did not have the covenant authority given him that we as new covenant believers have been given.

Scofield: "It has been conjectured that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was chronic ophthalmia, inducing bodily weakness, and a repulsive appearance (Galatians 4:15); (1 Corinthians 2:3); (1 Corinthians 2:4); (2 Corinthians 10:10). This cannot be positively known, and the reserve of Scripture is as sure a mark of inspiration as its revelations. Paul's particular "thorn" is not described that his consolations may avail for all to who any thorn is given."

Robertson's Word Pictures: "A thorn in the flesh (skolops tēi sarki). This old word is used for splinter, stake, thorn. In the papyri and inscriptions examples occur both for splinter and thorn as the meaning. In the lxx it is usually thorn. The case of tēi sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). It is a blessing to the rest of us that we do not know the particular affliction that so beset Paul. Each of us has some such splinter or thorn in the flesh, perhaps several at once. Messenger of Satan (aggelos Satana). Angel of Satan, the affliction personified."

Albert Barnes: "The messenger of Satan - Among the Hebrews it was customary to attribute severe and painful diseases to Satan; compare Job 2:6-7; compare note on Luke 13:16. In the time of the Saviour malignant spirits are known to have taken possession of the body in numerous cases, and to have produced painful bodily diseases, and Paul here says that Satan was permitted to bring this calamity on him."

Adam Clarke: "The word σκολοψ signifies a stake, and ανασκολοπιζεσθαι, to be tied to a stake by way of punishment; and it is used, says Schoettgen, to signify the most oppressive afflictions. Whatever it was, it was τῃ σαρκι, in the flesh, i.e. of an outward kind. It was neither sin nor sinfulness, for this could not be given him to prevent his being exalted above measure; for sin never had and never can have this tendency. What this thorn in the flesh might be has given birth to a multitude of conjectures: Tertullian thought it dolor auriculae, the ear ache; Chrysostom, κεφαλαλγια, the head ache; Cyprian, carnis et corporis multa ac gravia tormenta, many and grievous bodily torments."

Matthew Henry: "The apostle was pained with a thorn in the flesh, and buffeted with a messenger of Satan, 2 Corinthians 12:7. We are much in the dark what this was, whether some great trouble or some great temptation. Some think it was an acute bodily pain or sickness; others think it was the indignities done him by the false apostles, and the opposition he met with from them, particularly on the account of his speech, which was contemptible. However this was, God often brings this good out of evil, that the reproaches of our enemies help to hide pride from us; and this is certain, that what the apostle calls a thorn in his flesh was for a time very grievous to him: but the thorns Christ wore for us, and with which he was crowned, sanctify and make easy all the thorns in the flesh we may at any time be afflicted with; for he suffered, being tempted, that he might be able to succour those that are tempted. Temptations to sin are most grievous thorns; they are messengers of Satan, to buffet us. Indeed it is a great grievance to a good man to be so much as tempted to sin."

"Job did not have the covenant authority given him that we as new covenant believers have been given."

Authority to...what? Show me in the Scriptures where we as believers are told to order off demons, etc...

John 14:12? " Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." Sorry, can't agree there. Barnes, again: "The word 'greater' cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead. But, though not greater in themselves considered, yet they were greater in their effects. They made a deeper impression on mankind. They were attended with more extensive results. They were the means of the conversion of more sinners. The works of Jesus were confined to Judea. They were seen by few. The works of the apostles were witnessed by many nations, and the effect of their miracles and preaching was that thousands from among the Jews and Gentiles were converted to the Christian faith. The word

Edited August 16, 2007 by Robert R

[Karen C.]

Everyone seems to think deliverance ministry is all about just casting out demons..

A real deliverance ministry will include addressing sin issues, generational curses, emotional issues, unforgivness and then move into the demon casting out and followed by PHYSICAL healing.

This is what has been missing in the church.

We think it was all done at the one time altar where we accepted Jesus as Savior. That was only the beginning..

Our DELIVERANCE is through our sanctification process and addressing our bones in the closet.

We say the to people who have accepted Jesus, "if the devil brings up your past you just tell him where to go". Not realizing it is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring TRUTH to all our wounded places and failed areas if we let HIM. Instead we tell people to blank it out... That is what I used drugs to do, escape my past. Jesus helps us confront our past and apply the healing to all the broken areas...

THAT IS WHAT JESUS WOULD DO!

This type of ministry was what Jesus was referring to in Luke 4:18.

[Karen C.]

Scofield: "It has been conjectured that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was chronic ophthalmia, inducing bodily weakness, and a repulsive appearance (Galatians 4:15); (1 Corinthians 2:3); (1 Corinthians 2:4); (2 Corinthians 10:10). This cannot be positively known, and the reserve of Scripture is as sure a mark of inspiration as its revelations. Paul's particular "thorn" is not described that his consolations may avail for all to who any thorn is given."

Robertson's Word Pictures: "A thorn in the flesh (skolops tēi sarki). This old word is used for splinter, stake, thorn. In the papyri and inscriptions examples occur both for splinter and thorn as the meaning. In the lxx it is usually thorn. The case of tēi sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). It is a blessing to the rest of us that we do not know the particular affliction that so beset Paul. Each of us has some such splinter or thorn in the flesh, perhaps several at once. Messenger of Satan (aggelos Satana). Angel of Satan, the affliction personified."

Albert Barnes: "The messenger of Satan - Among the Hebrews it was customary to attribute severe and painful diseases to Satan; compare Job 2:6-7; compare note on Luke 13:16. In the time of the Saviour malignant spirits are known to have taken possession of the body in numerous cases, and to have produced painful bodily diseases, and Paul here says that Satan was permitted to bring this calamity on him."

Adam Clarke: "The word σκολοψ signifies a stake, and ανασκολοπιζεσθαι, to be tied to a stake by way of punishment; and it is used, says Schoettgen, to signify the most oppressive afflictions. Whatever it was, it was τῃ σαρκι, in the flesh, i.e. of an outward kind. It was neither sin nor sinfulness, for this could not be given him to prevent his being exalted above measure; for sin never had and never can have this tendency. What this thorn in the flesh might be has given birth to a multitude of conjectures: Tertullian thought it dolor auriculae, the ear ache; Chrysostom, κεφαλαλγια, the head ache; Cyprian, carnis et corporis multa ac gravia tormenta, many and grievous bodily torments."

Matthew Henry: "The apostle was pained with a thorn in the flesh, and buffeted with a messenger of Satan, 2 Corinthians 12:7. We are much in the dark what this was, whether some great trouble or some great temptation. Some think it was an acute bodily pain or sickness; others think it was the indignities done him by the false apostles, and the opposition he met with from them, particularly on the account of his speech, which was contemptible. However this was, God often brings this good out of evil, that the reproaches of our enemies help to hide pride from us; and this is certain, that what the apostle calls a thorn in his flesh was for a time very grievous to him: but the thorns Christ wore for us, and with which he was crowned, sanctify and make easy all the thorns in the flesh we may at any time be afflicted with; for he suffered, being tempted, that he might be able to succour those that are tempted. Temptations to sin are most grievous thorns; they are messengers of Satan, to buffet us. Indeed it is a great grievance to a good man to be so much as tempted to sin."

"Job did not have the covenant authority given him that we as new covenant believers have been given."

Authority to...what? Show me in the Scriptures where we as believers are told to order off demons, etc...

John 14:12? " Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." Sorry, can't agree there. Barnes, again: "The word 'greater' cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead. But, though not greater in themselves considered, yet they were greater in their effects. They made a deeper impression on mankind. They were attended with more extensive results. They were the means of the conversion of more sinners. The works of Jesus were confined to Judea. They were seen by few. The works of the apostles were witnessed by many nations, and the effect of their miracles and preaching was that thousands from among the Jews and Gentiles were converted to the Christian faith. The word

[Vickilynn]

I'd tread carefully. If exorcising demons from a Christian standpoint really worked, we wouldn't have mental illness today.

We do not have mental illness in Churches who believe in casting out devils. and openly use the rite.

Shalom,

Not true. Blanket generalization. Warning Will Robinson!!

Churches who properly practice deliverance do not have members who suffer from mental illness.

Shalom,

Not true. Not all mental illness is caused by demons.

[Vickilynn]

I have been adjucated as "severely mentally ill." I cannot work, do not go out in public (much) and spend much of my time here at Worthy laboring for our Lord. Many times, as Paul did in 2 Corinthians 12, I have prayed for relief, and many times I have been denied. As Paul, "...I am pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am powerful." (2 Corinthians 12:10).

I do not blame demons for my illness, just as I do not blame God for it. Rather, I thank Him for the opportunity to serve those who are like me, suffering quietly, at times, behind a mask and often overlooked by others.

I am on medications, and, unless the Lord sees fit, probably will be for life. My illness is a "life sentence" that can be treated but cannot be cured by medicine as we know it now. True, God can relieve me of this burden in a nanosecond, but why? Would I like to be released from this prison? Of course! But I remember this is all about HIM, not ME. Job was afflicted for no apparent reason, he "... was perfect and upright, and one who feared God and turned aside from evil." (Job 1:1) Job's distress was far greater than I can contemplate; this little burden I carry seems far too inconsequential to complain about when compared to what Job endured (and triumphed over).

We are to do all for His greater glory, and if God desires me to carry this little cross, I am all for it! I hate taking the medicine (even though it smells of vanilla, lol) but know I need to do so to maintain my equilibrium. If this is ALL He has for me to bear, I praise Him and count myself blessed, indeed!

Shalom Chief,

Amen and amen and amen! FINALLY, some sense. People who look for demons under every rock will attribute everything to demons! Demons are not the only cause of illnesses, mental OR physical.

Thank you for sharing the truth.

[Karen C.]

Can a Christian have a demon??? yes... REMEMBER we are not bringing salvation in to question here...

What we don't take into consideration is man is a three part being...

1.) spirit- which the Holy Spirit comes and reside in when we accept Jesus as Lord.

The Holy Spirit then leads us in our sanctification process. Which is a process of elimination, get rid of the occupiers.

2.) mind will and emotions-this is what they manipulate and cause to manifest their kingdom. Fears, worries, depression, anger, addictive behaviors, envy, jealousy...etc (get the picture?)

3.) physical body-when the person quits/refuses to move forward in their sanctification they will be opening doors for the spirits of infirmity. And also can be generational..

I am addressing the 70% of all sickness and disease that is our responsibility... the others I am not addressing here...

Stick with this area if you don't mind.. These are the areas WE have control over..

Right now we are in a purging process..

In doing deliverance I have ministered to Spirit filled Christians and cast out a dozen or more at any given time. Any manifestation (action, thought) that does not represent the Kingdom of Jesus is manifesting the other.. Simple, it is still choice. We are to take captive every thought to the knowledge of Christ.. That is not a suggestion.

The door points for demons are #1 SIN. unrepented sin will keep them. #2 Unforgiveness.. tormenting demons come in. #3 generational #4 traumas (all the way from childhood) #5 offenses ..there is more. Just having made a one time confession of faith does not complete the job. It is a process.. for life.

Hope this helps..

Blessings, Karen

[F8thNJesus]

If you can figure out how light and darkness can coexist in a believer, let me know. I find it interesting the number of Christians that seem to need "deliverance." Isn't the salvation we find in Jesus Christ enough? Is more required? Do mere men need to "finish" the work He started? I believe that Jesus is enough, that He has the power I need to take care of me, spiritually. emotionally, and physically. I do not need the intervention of well-meaning persons to accomplish what He has said He will. As written in Hebrews 7:25, "Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them."

Cheif i want to ask you why then do you have to take medicine for your thorn in your flesh? You are in fact depending on the intervention of well-meaning persons to accomplish what God has said he will?

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

This was not written to 12 apostles. This was written to any new covenant believer

I second that Robert.

Would you like to go through a deliverance session??

Amen Karen!

Cheif, oftentimes when we will not allow the Holy Spirit to convict our hearts about the word, we will assume we know from our own religious train of thought. I implore you to fast and pray, concerning your convictions about demonic bodage. See what God has to say. He might reveal to you that a demon has been lying to you about your own malady. Seeing your eloquence and heart for the Lord, Jesus might just use you mightily to help set the captives free!

Concerning cotroversey over the certain "Thorn" in Pauls flesh, My pastor along with other Scholars, believes because Paul before he was saved, was responsible for the deaths of many christians. He in turn went and preached in many of the churches where there were widowers, and widows of these persecuted brethren. when you have to face the consequences of your sin like that, I think that yes it would keep you from a proud heart!