Daniel 8

[Leonard]

I will be praying God removes you and your husband from this fear-based cultic group.

[warrior4him007]

hiyabecca welcome sis

[enthousiasmos]

I went to church today and we had a really great sermon, then the minister started to discuss Daniel 8 and I got so confused. He started talking about how Daniel was talking about Constantine and how the Roman Christians went up into heaven and told Jesus they was taking over and that is why the Sabbath is moving to Sunday. I am new to this faith (SDA) my husband went to this church when we got married. Can anyone please give me a more clearer picture on what Daniel was talking about. I am really confused and I have tried to read and reread this but I am still confused. Thank you.

Confusion does not come from God. Remember that! God speaks to us through His word, and to each of us it is something personal. And, although it is on an individual basis... He doesn't send mix singnals! You have wittnessed false preaching! Please find another church and invite your husband to come along!

[MorningGlory]

Ahhh, what kinda church is it??? I've never even heard of anything like that before????

It is the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I grew up Methodist and my husband chose this church and the more we go I get more confused. I fell away from God and I am trying to bring my relationship back close to him. I want to learn but I feel I am disappointed God because I get confused and I read it again and get confused. Is this normal?

Becca, it's no wonder you're confused! It's not you that's wrong here. That teaching is totally false! Believe me, God will not be disappointed in you if you reject this outright. Please find a new church; one that preaches from the Bible.

thank you for your advice. is it ok for me to go to a church that my husband doesn't? i just want to learn so much.

IF the church your husband goes to is a false witness, then YES it is ok to go to a different church! As long as the church you attend teaches the truth from the word of God.

Totally agree! Hopefully, you can persuade your husband to leave this church also.

[EricH]

Moved from the Worthy Welcome Forum to the Doctrinal Questions Forum

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Becca,

I would pray and ask your hubby to carefully consider the teachings of the SDA church. They are considered a cult.

I have wonderful friends that are SDAs, but we do not agree on certain interpretations of Scripture. It is essential that you and your hubby go to a Bible-believing church.

Here is some info on the SDA church and why they are not considered to be credible Scripturally:

http://www.carm.org/sda/teachings.htm

hat does Seventh Day Adventism Teach?

Affirmations

1. The Bible is inspired and the word of God.

2. Trinitarian: The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all one God in three persons.

3. Jesus is God and has always existed with the Father.

4. The Holy Spirit is a person.

5. Jesus' sacrifice was vicarious.

6. Salvation is by grace, not works.

7. Jesus rose from the dead physically in his glorified body.

8. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.

9. Baptism is by immersion

10. The literal, visible return of Jesus.

11. Jesus will return to set up a millennial kingdom. They are Premillennial.

12. Literal six day creation, not long periods.

Denials

1. Denies the doctrine of predestination

2. Denies baptism by sprinkling

3. Denies infant baptism.

4. Denies the immortality of the soul.

5. Denies the eternality of hell fire.

6. Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco.

Aberrant

1. Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan - The Great Controversy, p. 422, 485.

2. Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

3. Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).

4. On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.

5. Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.

6. The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.

7. The wicked are annihilated.

8. Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.

9. There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.

[arvy]

I went to church today and we had a really great sermon, then the minister started to discuss Daniel 8 and I got so confused. He started talking about how Daniel was talking about Constantine and how the Roman Christians went up into heaven and told Jesus they was taking over and that is why the Sabbath is moving to Sunday. I am new to this faith (SDA) my husband went to this church when we got married. Can anyone please give me a more clearer picture on what Daniel was talking about. I am really confused and I have tried to read and reread this but I am still confused. Thank you.

becca, arvy 'ere.

You sound like a person who has just heard too much all at once. You show a fair ability to hear, file and recall information quite well. But you had too much information put to your mind all at once and most like without ant previous knowedge from the reading of the Bible prophets or history of the Western hemisphere from which our Church histories began from the era of the birth, death and resurrection of Messiah (Jesus Christ). Dan. 9:25-27, Isa. 53:1-12, compare phillip's use of Isa. to explain and show that Jesus was The Messiah of the prophets words. Acts. 9:26-38.

As Phillip helped the Ethiopian piece together the evi together sound facts from both prophecy and History. So the Evidential Facts relative to the purpose of Jesus' life and death activities to the day of His resurrection, as they had been foretold by the prophets, impressed upon the mind of the Ethiopian his personal need for God's annionted Messiah for his eternal hope and that Jesus was truly that Messiah of the prophets.

Note the Ethiopian's response once he comprehended and was convinced of the truth of Isaiah, the prophet's words, and the manner in which Phillip had collated them to him:

"And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water: and the eunuch said (in response), See, Here is water : What does hinder me to be baptized?

And Phillip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may.

And the Ethiopian replied, I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD."

And both Phillip and the ethhiopian went down into the water together and the ethiopian believer submitted his life to Jesus as Lord and Messiah of his life.

Dan. chapter 9 should probably be your first introduction to the prophets with regard to Christ's Personal affirmation and confirmation of the prophets. Daniel is the only Bible prophet to ever match the personal, first appearance of Messiah (Jesus) to a particular place in history with a literal time segment attached with it. However we must be dilligent in our study of Bible history relative to secular histories to discern the correct points of chronology in history for both the beginning and the close of the "70 weeks" of years. Dan. 9:24-27.

Hint: It is a doctrinal error that propagates the concept of placing the last "week" (7 years of the 490 years) out the close of time. The whole of these years were intended to extend only to the first advent of Christ). Of that the context is reasonably obvious, but almost the whole of Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) tend to present God as somewhat mathmatically ignorant, breaking up chronological and arithmetical sequence.

As per Daniel chapter 8, and its chronology relative to the 2300 days presented there in verse 14. In its proper context, the "days" must be tranposed into a sequencial depletion of the number of years to become accurately fitted to its intended outline of world events (cahpters 2 and 7) to close time at the event of Messiah's ("the Prince of Prince's" second advent). SDAs close it to early at the date 1844 AD. Protestants and Catholics close it as far back as in the era of Greece. again. Too early to properly follow the chronological outlines given relative to one the other from chapters 2, and 7 and 11.

becca, note that Nebuchadnezzar, in chapter 2 is representative of only the kingdom of Babylon with the metals mentioned represented of three other kingdoms to follow after in a defined sequence. the latter kingdom, of the four previous respective kingdoms, in their described sequencial order was "the everlasting kingdom" of God. That would bring time to a final close on earth. note this chapter names ony the first of the kingdoms of the sequencec of kingdoms to rise and to fall as a matter of history, In this case of the Biblical account prophecy is the telling of HISTORY before the actual events shuld transire as reality.

This is also true of chapter 7. This chapter is also the foretelling of ceratin sequences of History which were to effect all of God's people from that era towrd the close of all time, and with interjections of specific "times" (years) include for the measuring of certain of those events toward the latter end of all time. Note the 7th chapter in no way names any of the kingdoms, yet it adds to chapter twos accounting beyond the fourth kingdom of chapter 2, Ten horns out of which a little horn arises to pluck up three of the 10 horns. It is the little horn to whom is attached the time period to war with the people of God: the "time, times and dividing of time." (Dan. 7:25, 12:7).

In the accounting of Daniel 8, we find that Babylon has passed it years of Dominion relative to God's people. As a kingdom Babylon is about to become, as a kingdom, an hhistorical fact, and God has given to Daniel another view of History to come. Babylon is now seen as a colapsed empire. WE CAN KNOW THIS by the facts presented concerning the prophetic insite given to Daniel with the interpretation. We know because the Angel actually now names the kingdoms represented (symbolized) by "the ram" and "the rough goat." The ram is named representative of "the Medes and the Persians" verse 20. "The rough goat" is also specifically named as representing "Grecia" (Greece) verse. This is nothing more than an order of history well written in the history books affirming this very sequence as was forestated by the Spirit of all true Prophecy, and further affirmed by the Presence of Messiah, "the prince of the Host" (verse 11) in the Roman era of history.

Rome then must have been the fourth kingdom of chapter 7 to arise after the fall of the third kingdom. to arise.

And again so secular history will also solidly affirm the prohecy, the preceding kingdoms were divided and fell. so Rome would become divided and fall before the rise of the warring little horn should take his place in the sequences described

So the primary focus of events to transpire as we look forward to the "last day" beyond the first appearing of Jesus as the Messiah of the prophets, is upon that warring "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8, referred to by Paul when writing to the Thessalonians as "that Man of Mystery" (2 Thess. 1-10 which must precede the primary event of all event, the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah of the prophets: especially of the prophets Daniel and John of th Revelations of Jesus Christ.

It was "the little horn" which should "pluck up three of the ten divisions of the Roman Empire. History tells us that Rom faded away as an Empire about 476 AD. It was from that point forward the focus of Western world affairs of mind, with regard to Christianity as a whole, became fixed with formality upon the Papal dominion as it developed into a world influence, in its first years of power ("a time times and the dividing of times") over god's people. This period of tiime, as a matter of ordered sequence should have begun between 476 AD and 538 AD.

It is then, a matter of both secular and church historical sequence we can then locate who is the intended representive in the works of "the little horn," in opposition to the truth of the Words of God (Dan. 7:25; 8:23-25; 12:7) and apply the scriptures of the prophets to a particular head as that overpowering leader. Not as to a singular person only: but with referrence to a body of people under both a political and a religious leader presuming to speak as from the throne of God in His authority.

Up to the 1798 AD The Papacy literaly had a dominion of its own by landed properties in a large part of Italy. These properties were title , "Papal States." The city of Rome was, in esence the Bishops Cathedral, or capital of its dominion. That began to meet interferrence from the time of Nepoleon Bonaparte when THe Bishop of Rome was driven from his "capital." History accounts that the lands which had been were ruled over by the Papacy politically, were taken back by the the Country, Italy. For several years The Bishops of Rome reside only in the confines of 108 acres of what we know as The Vatican and refused to be any removal from that 108 acres. It's dominion had been "wounded" But a healing of that domnion was also forecast in this prophecy of the little horn.

And so it was that in the year 1929 the Lateran Treaty, a political solution, signed by Both the Vatican and Mousilini of Italy was signed. The political agreement was that these 108 acres on which the Vatican sat should now be repected not simply as a church based astablishment; but as a SOVEREIGN NATION and the country Italy, was committed to payment to the Vatican Nation for all the lands of the "Papal States" that had now become a part of the country of Italy.

So now the Papal dominion is a Dominion of a religious and politicacl state of mind that extends from that 108 acre sovereignty all around the globe and to which more that 120 nations, inclusive of our United States, send their respective political ambassadors. And these all will admit that as per world leader, none excell the power of the Papacy in either field, political or religious.

When is this forcast to come to an close? only at the Second Coming of the Prince of Princes, The Messiah, The Lord, Jesus CHrist.

May your general confusion become a firm fix in the general knowledge and understanding of the Spirit of the Prophets as they were given sound insite for us who now are living in the "latter day" era of "the Present Truth" of Jesus Christ for this, and certain of our future generations.

I suggest, becca, you copy this little dissertation and compare it back several times to the scripture, like as Paul commended the "Bereans" that you may perceive whether what I have presented will "rightly" collate to first the scriptures and the to the secular history books. Also if you have a Youngs Analytical Concordance and a Bible Dictionary handy. these two books will help advance your study and learing processes to a great degree.

your friend in Christ, arvy

[Guest djconklin]

Before becoming SDA we used to be Methodists. But, when taking Bible studies we would run and ask the pastor if these things were so. He'd say yes. We'd ask then why don't you preach it at church. He said that if he did he'd lose his job. We could care less--we want to hear what the Bible says. So we quit that church and became Adventists. Good people, lots of love and support.

I would pray and ask your hubby to carefully consider the teachings of the SDA church. They are considered a cult.

By all means pray (without ceasing according to Scripture). As for being labeled a cult there are people who label the Catholic church a cult. The word has about as much meaning and value as the the 'N' word when discussing race relations. Dr. Walter Martin spent several years and actually talked with church leaders and found that we were not a cult.

Edited October 20, 2007 by djconklin

[ted]

I went to church today and we had a really great sermon, then the minister started to discuss Daniel 8 and I got so confused. He started talking about how Daniel was talking about Constantine and how the Roman Christians went up into heaven and told Jesus they was taking over and that is why the Sabbath is moving to Sunday. I am new to this faith (SDA) my husband went to this church when we got married. Can anyone please give me a more clearer picture on what Daniel was talking about. I am really confused and I have tried to read and reread this but I am still confused. Thank you.

Think of it this way: If you put sour milk into coffee and saw it curdle, would you still drink it in, or would you think that something wasn't quite right?

When something doesn't sound quite right, and you bounce that teaching off of Scripture and it really doesn't match up, then you have what is called a "Red Flag".

Perhaps the Holy Spirit is warning you of something?

Talk with you husband about your feelings. Maybe he's sensing the same thing?

If something is false, it's false. Simple as that.

It doesn't matter what church you are sitting in or the denomination.

t.

[Redefine_Me]

By all means pray (without ceasing according to Scripture). As for being labeled a cult there are people who label the Catholic church a cult.

And Church of Christ - big ol' Worthy thread out there on that one.