Is tongues necessary?

[Sherman]

Hi Greg,

I know that you didn't ask me about Jude 1.20, and I hope you and ex don't mind me giving my 2 cents worth; but I find the similarities between this passage and 1 Cor. 14.4 to be amazing. Let's look at some of the most evident similarities.

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" (1 Cor. 14.4a). "But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit" (Jude 1.20).

Of course "edifies" and "build yourselves up" are both the same word. Well, they are both "oikodomeo"; Jude 1.20 just adds the preposition "epi" (on) to "oikodomeo", making the word "epi-oikodomeo". Anyhow, it's the same Greek word meaning edification or building up.

In both passages, the person praying is being personally built up.

In both passages, the authors links such personal edification with "love." Jude 1.21 "Keep yourselfs in God's love." And 1 Cor. 14.1 "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts."

An interesting difference is Jude speaks of praying "in the Holy Spirit"; whereas, Paul equates speaking in tongues with praying with "my spirit." 1 Cor. 14.14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." Of course, the context of 1 Cor. 14 is about spiritual gifts, which are supernatural empowerments of the Holy Spirit.

Looking at these similarities and differences then leads me to believe that Paul and Jude are referencing the same thing, just using slightly different termenology: "speaking in tongues," "my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful," and "pray in the Holy Spirit."

They both are linked to edification of one's self. Of course, Jude specifies that praying in the Holy Spirit is linked with building one's self up in faith. And considering how important faith is, I think it's important for us to do whatever we can to build ourselves up in faith. Building one's self up, personal edification is far from selfish, it's an act of love for God and love for your fellow man. The spiritual gifts are meant to be operated out of love, not as an expression of pride or self-righteousness. Sadly due to our selfish nature, it's important to monitor one's self in order to be careful not to fall into such pride.

Also, recall in my last post how I expressed that from experience I've found that praying in the Spirit helps build up my faith to then prophecy or share a word of knowledge or wisdom, or gift of healing or miracles. Praying with my spirit, praying in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues is a small foolish gift, least amoung the gifts, but it is very important. Maybe that's why Paul said, "I thank God that I pray in tongues more than you all." And "I wish you all spoke in tongues, and even more so that you prophesied."

A few post back I asked a question of all readers of this thread: does anyone prophecy who does not also speak in tongues? I don't mean to ask if it is possible (I believe that it is); but does anyone in this thread or anyone know anyone else who prophecies but who does not also speak in tongues (pray in the Holy Spirit)?

[Sherman]

Another thing that happens when I pray in the Spirit (speak in tongues), is that I am very often convicted of my sinful wrong attitudes. Most of my outward life is pretty clean, with no serious repetitious sinful patterns of life. I'm married with 4 children, so I don't have much time for myself, muchless to waiste on wicked stuff. But, this sure does not keep me from falling into sinful attitudes. However, whenever I'm praying in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit often severely convicts me of such hidden sin as unforgiveness, pride, self-righteousness, thinking evil of others, not acting in love, only doing things half-heartedly, etc. So, in a very real way, praying in the Spirit helps me to remain or keep myself in God's love.

On the other hand, many times when I'm praying in the Spirit, I also receive a tremendous sense of the love of God for me; I feel God's love and many times I just hear Him say, "I love you son." It's powerfully encouraging and edifying. So, through praying in the Spirit I am built up in faith, convicted of my sin, and built up in the love of God. These are some pretty good benefits. Maybe that's why Paul wrote, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." And "I wish you all spoke in tongues." PTL!!

[Guest Greg Davies]

Hi Greg,

I know that you didn't ask me about Jude 1.20, and I hope you and ex don't mind me giving my 2 cents worth; but I find the similarities between this passage and 1 Cor. 14.4 to be amazing. Let's look at some of the most evident similarities.

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" (1 Cor. 14.4a). "But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit" (Jude 1.20).

Of course "edifies" and "build yourselves up" are both the same word. Well, they are both "oikodomeo"; Jude 1.20 just adds the preposition "epi" (on) to "oikodomeo", making the word "epi-oikodomeo". Anyhow, it's the same Greek word meaning edification or building up.

In both passages, the person praying is being personally built up.

In both passages, the authors links such personal edification with "love." Jude 1.21 "Keep yourselfs in God's love." And 1 Cor. 14.1 "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts."

An interesting difference is Jude speaks of praying "in the Holy Spirit"; whereas, Paul equates speaking in tongues with praying with "my spirit." 1 Cor. 14.14 "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful." Of course, the context of 1 Cor. 14 is about spiritual gifts, which are supernatural empowerments of the Holy Spirit.

Looking at these similarities and differences then leads me to believe that Paul and Jude are referencing the same thing, just using slightly different termenology: "speaking in tongues," "my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful," and "pray in the Holy Spirit."

They both are linked to edification of one's self. Of course, Jude specifies that praying in the Holy Spirit is linked with building one's self up in faith. And considering how important faith is, I think it's important for us to do whatever we can to build ourselves up in faith. Building one's self up, personal edification is far from selfish, it's an act of love for God and love for your fellow man. The spiritual gifts are meant to be operated out of love, not as an expression of pride or self-righteousness. Sadly due to our selfish nature, it's important to monitor one's self in order to be careful not to fall into such pride.

Also, recall in my last post how I expressed that from experience I've found that praying in the Spirit helps build up my faith to then prophecy or share a word of knowledge or wisdom, or gift of healing or miracles. Praying with my spirit, praying in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues is a small foolish gift, least amoung the gifts, but it is very important. Maybe that's why Paul said, "I thank God that I pray in tongues more than you all." And "I wish you all spoke in tongues, and even more so that you prophesied."

A few post back I asked a question of all readers of this thread: does anyone prophecy who does not also speak in tongues? I don't mean to ask if it is possible (I believe that it is); but does anyone in this thread or anyone know anyone else who prophecies but who does not also speak in tongues (pray in the Holy Spirit)?

Glory to God! What an outstanding post. I've never heard it put better.

I don't know anyone who prophecies and doesn't speak in tongues. However, the Old Testement prophets prophecied when the Holy Spirit "came upon" them "the Lord said to me". I don't believe they were filled in the way we are filled with the Holy Spirit in the context of Acts 2:4 or 19:6. We've had these discussions before.

I've heard the "pony engine" analogy before from Bishop Bill Hamon of Christian International. He has a series of three books on prophecy that are the most clear and understandable books I've ever read on the subject.

God bless, Greg.

[Sherman]

Yes, it's probably from him that I got the illustration about the pony engine. I've never read his books but I have heard him speak a few times and I've taken a class on prophecy with material from Christian International, his ministry. He's also prophesied over me a couple of times. He is amazingly gifted in prophecy and in stirring that gift up in others. Prophecy is powerfully encouraging, edifying, and uplifting.

[Leonardo Von]

On 10/19/2007 at 6:25 PM, Sherman said:

Is tongues necessary for what?

THE MOTIVE OF THE GIFT OF TONGUES

Only in three occasions the use of the gift of tongues is mentioned explicitly: Acts 2.3,4; Acts 10.46; Acts 19.6.

The finality can be seen below:

o    “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With [ men of ] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [ serveth ] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.” (1Cor 14.20-22).

o    “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.  To whom he said, This [ is ] the rest [ wherewith ] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [ is ] the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [ and ] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28.11-13).

 

Note that the gift of tongues is related with the law. It was directed toward they who don’t believe with purport of judgment. In fact, when we take a look with more care, we see this:

o    “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2.2-11).

o    “And he said, Jehovah came from Sinai, And rose up from Seir unto them; He shone forth from mount Paran, And he came from  the myriads of the sanctuary; From his right hand [went forth]  a law of fire for them.” (Deut 33.2 – Darby).

 

Note that the tongues were of fire, which is related with the law, which, in turn, is related with judgment (you can see more about this seeking, in a biblical key, all the references to the word “fire” and seeing as it is used. For example, Matthew 3.10-12).

To you to see this, analyze this passage:

o    “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” (Acts 10.44-48).

 

Observe that Peter, well knowing that the Jews that was with him wouldn’t accept, at once, to receive the gentiles as brothers (Acts 10.28). Thus, he didn’t hesitate in remember them of Acts 2, where they all received the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the experience that both had was equal. This was a testimony that Jews and gentiles would constitute one only body.

Later, in Jerusalem, Pedro again needed this to convince the Jews:

o    “Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [ he did ] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts 11.17,18).

 

In other words, to convince the unbeliever Jews that don’t accept that Jesus regards not persons – Deut 10.17; Deut 16.19; 2Chr 19.7; Job 13.10; 34.19; Mal 2.9), the Eternal gave the gift of tongues.

First the gift of tongues served so that Israel could be guided by Eternal, even abiding in others countries.

By way of explanation: it was promised to Israel that the Eternal was going to speak to them for middle of strange lips. Like, in the Pentecost, there is no gentile converted, the Eternal used the owns Jews to speak with other Jews the prophecy of the Eternal.

However, passed various years, there was many Jews that yet didn’t admit that the gentiles were saved (or, if do, they had any doubt). Hence Jesus to use Paul as shown below:

o    “And when Paul had laid [ his ] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts 19.6).

 

I believe that these three manifestations were exactly equals. In this case, the pray in tongues was a prophecy that magnified God, revealing His wonderful works.

There is also an experience that, although the gift of tongues isn’t mentioned explicitly, this is possible to be inferred via reaction of Simon:

o    “And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8.18).

 

How did Simon see that the Holy Spirit was given? Considering that the Jews didn’t get along with the Samaritans (John 4.9), therefore they will need a proof that Jesus also received them in His body. Hence the gift of tongues again.

To the unbeliever Jews, the tongues was a signal (the tongues was spoken in the maternal language of them what they knew. It was the judgment of the Eternal for them - 1Cor 14.21-22).

To the learners and believers of the Church, the tongues were a signal (because they understand what was being spoken). The tongues were prayer and praise directed to the Eternal by Holy Spirit (Rom 8.26). The intimacy between He and His Bride (Psalms 25.14).

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Leonardo Von

[Leonardo Von]

On 10/19/2007 at 6:00 PM, Guest Greg Davies said:

Care to respond?

THE PURPORT OF THE GIFT OF TONGUES TODAY

Today Jesus speaks with the Jews through the Church. Formerly, as there wasn’t any gentile that knew the Word of God, the only way to Jews heard it from strange lips was for middle of gift of tongues (be using the Jews or revealing the greatness of God to the gentiles just in that moment).

Today, as in all the world the earth is fills with the knowledge of the Lord (see Isaiah 9.11; Habakkuk 2.14), wherever the Jews were, they can hear the Sacred Scripture by a gentile in their maternal language (like in Acts 2.2-11).

That is to say that today the original purport of the gift of tongues there isn’t.

[Willa]

No, tongues are not necessary for salvation or for use.  But it is a great blessing to pray by means of the Holy Spirit and to praise God in this manner.  

[Leonardo Von]

1 hour ago, Willa said:

No, tongues are not necessary for salvation or for use.  But it is a great blessing to pray by means of the Holy Spirit and to praise God in this manner.  

Hi Willa.

Grace and mercy and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

And what would be to pray and praise by means of the Holy Spirit?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, folks.

It's really quite simple: God gives the gift of tongues (languages) when He wants one to be able to communicate with those around him. If there is a great need to share the truth with others and the person doesn't know the language of the people with whom he or she is to communicate, then the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit [or Ghost] of God) steps in and provides the knowledge without one having to learn the language.

That's what they were doing in Acts 2: They were surrounded by children of Israel who had traveled to the Land from all over the Roman Empire for Pesach (the Passover). These travelers spoke the other languages of the lands in which they lived. God provided multiple speakers with multiple languages so that everyone heard in their own language!

Acts 2:4-11
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven (the sky).
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia (Turkey),
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
KJV

A "tongue" is a "language," and a "language" is a "vocal, audible means of communication between two or more people."

---

Modern Christians will make much ado about the phrase, "tongues of angels"; however, the word "angel" is the key here. First of all, the word "angel" is a TRANSLITERATED word from the Greek word "aggelos," the "gg" (gamma-gamma) making the "ng" sound. If the Greek word "aggelos" was actually TRANSLATED, the word would become "messenger" in English.

(In the process of transliteration, one would simply take the Greek alpha and make it the English "a," the Greek gamma-gamma and make it the English "ng," the Greek epsilon and make it the English "e," and the Greek lambda and make it the English "l." The "-os" ending strictly is to identify it as a masculine noun and has no place in English; therefore, the ending was dropped. The result would be "angel.")

An "angel," therefore, is strictly a "messenger," and that Greek word can refer to both a human messenger and a supernatural messenger. (The same is true for the Hebrew word "mal`akh" also translated as "angel" in the Tanakh or OT.) We DO have "messengers of God" that were NOT supernatural recorded in the Bible; they were commonly called "naviy'iym" (or "prophets").

To show that "aggelos" is sometimes used for human messengers, look at the following:

Matthew 11:7-11
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: ton aggelon mou = "the messenger of-me") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
KJV

Therefore, Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) WAS this "messenger," this "angel!" ("Aggelon," by the way, is the accusative form of the word "aggelos," the direct object of the sentence.)

Many have a mystical view of 1 Peter 1:12:

1 Peter 1:12
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV

However, context shows us who these "aggeloi" or "messengers" are:

1 Peter 1:7-12
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise (bragging) and honour and glory (brightness/fame) at the appearing of Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah):
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation (rescue/deliverance) of your souls (air-breathers/lives).
10 Of which salvation (rescue/deliverance) the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ (the Messiah) which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ (the Messiah), and the glory (brightness/fame) that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister (serve like a waiter) the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel (one word meaning "have-announced-the-good-news") unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven (the sky); which things the angels (messengers) desire to look into.
KJV

Therefore, this passage, too, is a reference to HUMAN messengers, the PROPHETS!

Thus, when the Scriptures say,

1 Corinthians 13:1-2
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels (messengers), and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries (secrets), and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
KJV

Paul is talking about HUMAN messengers with the gift of PROPHECY!

One doesn't have to go nuts with the interpretation of a passage of Scripture and take it to the extreme. Just follow the simple truths of the context.