question on baptism

[damo1]

damo1

i hope i can get some in put i have noticed hear on worthy their are several pastors and i would also like to hear from some leaders as well i know this topic has been on these boards several times yet i am not wanting to start up a heated debate

i have had a talk with my leaders and my pastor in this church and what i said is this if some one that has been baptized and falls away and goes back to their old way of life and then they come back to Christ repent and plant them selves in a good church wear they can grow and deal with what ever it was that made them leave the first time does a person need to be baptized the second time ?

the reason i am asking this is i am about to be ordained my self even though i have been to plenty baptisms that our church does i know as a pastor i am going to have to do this my self

my pastor and my leaders in my church said no a person does not have to be baptized the second time since they have been baptized once that should be enough

i have seen with in denominations that are new wear the pastor has not gone threw bible collage or holds a ba or diploma wear several that i know with in the towns i use to live do this when some one that has fallen away and they decided to come back and give it a second go the pastors in these churches that get planted in our country towns and coastal towns wil baptize a person the second time is this wrong of some one who has no diploma or ba to do this

i am going to be putting my self threw bible collage to get my ba in pastrol care

this is what i am looking at with in your churches do your pastors or leaders or your elders do a course before some one asks about baptism ?

i did a 3 week course before i got baptized and i was told to bring my bible my note pad and a pen which i did and we wear also encouraged to openly ask questions as i did the course with several other people that wanted to get baptized

now this is wear i want to hear your thoughts do those that do baptize people with in their churches go by these principals in acts 19

Acts 19 i am quoting this from the new spirit filled life bible your translation wil be diffrent to my bible i like reading

Acts 19 Paul at Ephesus

1 and it happend while Apollos was at cornith that paul having passed through the uppper regions came to ephesus and finding some disciples

2 he said to them did you receive the holy spirit when you belived so they said to him we have not so much as heard whether their is a holy spirit

3 and he said to them into what then wear you batized so they said into johns baptizem

4 then paul said john indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should belive on him who would come after him that is on christ jesus

5 when they heard this they wear baptized in the name of the lord jesus

6 and when paul had layed his hands on them the holy spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prohphecied

this is what happened to me when i was only 18 and just two weeks into my freedom after serving a longer sentence i just did not jump in or go by what others had said i did a lot of reading and was led to this verse in acts and i have had this marked down in my bible since 1988

i also had my pastor do this with me what Paul did with the disciples that he came across

i know we all come from different denominations and many go by the way the pastor does this or the leaders or the elders of your church

do you go by Paul's example in acts and do what Paul did with the disciples or is their another way to do this

as around midnight in October 1988 on the 16th of October is when i woke up and began to pray and speak in tongues as my pastor told me not to hold back if god wants to pas this gift on to you and also i was able to repeat what i said in tongues in normal English to those with in my church only when god had a prophetic message for me to pas on as my old church belived in everything that is said in acts and used these gifts and this is how i was bought up

i would like to hear your honest views on this as i Will be jotting what is said in this topic i did not set this topic up on worthy to gain points its been puzzling me for some time and i would like some guidance from others on worthy and also hear your thoughts on the questions i had asked at the start

and when i get enough input and advice i Will ask one of the mods of worthy to delete this topic so its not wasting space

thanks from your brother in the lord Damien

[HisMindinme]

damo1

i hope i can get some in put i have noticed hear on worthy their are several pastors and i would also like to hear from some leaders as well i know this topic has been on these boards several times yet i am not wanting to start up a heated debate

i have had a talk with my leaders and my pastor in this church and what i said is this if some one that has been baptized and falls away and goes back to their old way of life and then they come back to Christ repent and plant them selves in a good church wear they can grow and deal with what ever it was that made them leave the first time does a person need to be baptized the second time ?

the reason i am asking this is i am about to be ordained my self even though i have been to plenty baptisms that our church does i know as a pastor i am going to have to do this my self

my pastor and my leaders in my church said no a person does not have to be baptized the second time since they have been baptized once that should be enough

i have seen with in denominations that are new wear the pastor has not gone threw bible collage or holds a ba or diploma wear several that i know with in the towns i use to live do this when some one that has fallen away and they decided to come back and give it a second go the pastors in these churches that get planted in our country towns and coastal towns wil baptize a person the second time is this wrong of some one who has no diploma or ba to do this

i am going to be putting my self threw bible collage to get my ba in pastrol care

this is what i am looking at with in your churches do your pastors or leaders or your elders do a course before some one asks about baptism ?

i did a 3 week course before i got baptized and i was told to bring my bible my note pad and a pen which i did and we wear also encouraged to openly ask questions as i did the course with several other people that wanted to get baptized

now this is wear i want to hear your thoughts do those that do baptize people with in their churches go by these principals in acts 19

Acts 19 i am quoting this from the new spirit filled life bible your translation wil be diffrent to my bible i like reading

Acts 19 Paul at Ephesus

1 and it happend while Apollos was at cornith that paul having passed through the uppper regions came to ephesus and finding some disciples

2 he said to them did you receive the holy spirit when you belived so they said to him we have not so much as heard whether their is a holy spirit

3 and he said to them into what then wear you batized so they said into johns baptizem

4 then paul said john indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should belive on him who would come after him that is on christ jesus

5 when they heard this they wear baptized in the name of the lord jesus

6 and when paul had layed his hands on them the holy spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prohphecied

this is what happened to me when i was only 18 and just two weeks into my freedom after serving a longer sentence i just did not jump in or go by what others had said i did a lot of reading and was led to this verse in acts and i have had this marked down in my bible since 1988

i also had my pastor do this with me what Paul did with the disciples that he came across

i know we all come from different denominations and many go by the way the pastor does this or the leaders or the elders of your church

do you go by Paul's example in acts and do what Paul did with the disciples or is their another way to do this

as around midnight in October 1988 on the 16th of October is when i woke up and began to pray and speak in tongues as my pastor told me not to hold back if god wants to pas this gift on to you and also i was able to repeat what i said in tongues in normal English to those with in my church only when god had a prophetic message for me to pas on as my old church belived in everything that is said in acts and used these gifts and this is how i was bought up

i would like to hear your honest views on this as i Will be jotting what is said in this topic i did not set this topic up on worthy to gain points its been puzzling me for some time and i would like some guidance from others on worthy and also hear your thoughts on the questions i had asked at the start

and when i get enough input and advice i Will ask one of the mods of worthy to delete this topic so its not wasting space

thanks from your brother in the lord Damien

First, the word is:

βαπτίζω baptizō bap-tid'-zo From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

It just literally means dunked. So, not sprinkled or sprayed or swabbed or hit with water baloons and such things. Just simply dunked completely in.

Now, the next question I have is this: What is required? Water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit or both?

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water to repentance. But He who comes after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;

John the (Southern) Baptist is pointing at a distinction between what he does and what Jesus will do. I think this is an important distinction. What we have to do is determine which baptism is being pointed at when we see the word in scripture.

Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to Jordan, to John, to be baptized by him.

What I find interesting is how the mind of God, the mind of Christ submitted Himself to this process.

Mat 3:14 But John restrained Him, saying, I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?

Mat 3:15 And answering Jesus said to him, Allow it now, for it is becoming to us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he allowed Him.

The question I have here is: Allow it now? Was His action then for a purpose only for Him in that moment and not something we were to follow Him in? I don't think that is what He is saying.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

So, what is the word baptizing pointing at? Water baptism? Baptism in the Spirit? Both?

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:14 And the apostles in Jerusalem hearing that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John to them;

Act 8:15 who when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:16 For as yet He had not fallen on any of them, they were baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Here we see BOTH baptisms being pointed at. The Samaritans' were baptized most likely in water baptism, but not yet in the Spirit. So, we see how the apostles "sealed the deal" with baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Interesting this "laying on of hands". Compare this to water.

What it means to me is the word is a pointer and not just to water. In one instance it is pointing at water and another at the Spirit (mind) of God in a man (this is the Born Again process happening -- I know this will completely open a can of worms in saying this). Nevertheless, what is clear is there are two baptisms:

1. Water by emersing

2. Spirit of God by laying on of hands

Both are in scripture. Both have a precedence. Both are important. Yet, the scripture seems clear that baptism of the Spirit of God in a man (me, you, anyone coming to Christ) is THE prime thing. God in me by His Spirit, changing my mind from natural, carnal, corrupt and so on -- TO -- The obedience mind of Christ -- THIS is the important matter above all.

If I read what is written in John, I see water baptism is a baptism to repentence and baptism of the Spirit is a baptism to renewal of the mind. On one side is letting go and an awareness of sin, an awareness of a need of Jesus and a willingness to agree with God about my state. On the other side is God doing what He promised (covenanted) to do: Put His mind in me (the Mind of Christ). So, I find that both baptisms serve a distinct purpose in the life of a believer.

Moreover, I think they are the marks of endings and beginnings: The Door and then the Path (thank you Brother Paul Washer for pointing this out). The Door is the starting of the journey and the Path is the walking out and continuation of what was started at the Door.

1. Repentence (water baptism signifying) is on one side of the Doorway (ending of old man, old life, old way, natural mind, carnality, flesh, lust and so on).

2. Spirit baptism (laying on of hands) is the other side of the Doorway (beginning of new life, new mind, new mind, new ways, righteousness, Born Again, Born from above, etc).

The Pathway is a continual repentence + Spirit combination as the natural mind is reveal and the mind of Christ is applied, imprinted, imparted, inscribed, transformed and renewed upon our inward man. The Doorway signifies the mark of beginning, but it was NEVER meant to be the end of the story. This is a NARROW path and we can fall off of it (fall away, slide back, etc, etc, etc). The Doorway signifies the tone or process of the Pathway. It is the blueprint of the Pathway of the believer following Christ. Jesus didn't need the repentence part, but WE DO! Jesus walked the righteous and obedient "Mind of Christ in me" part because THAT is Who He is! We walk both because THAT is who WE ARE. Our pathway is the path of "denying the flesh daily and following after Him." Make sense?

Thus, I believe in baptism (water and Spirit) wholly and fully as an integral part of our walking out of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Take comfort, Brother. Jesus knows the pathway He called us to. He's not dismayed by our stumblings as we are part-minded in the natural and being changed to the mind of Christ in us. This is Hebrews:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

ἑκουσίως hekousiōs hek-oo-see'-oce Adverb from the same as G1595; voluntarily: - wilfully, willingly.

This is an adverb (verb helper or describer). Willfully or voluntarily sinning; fully, completely, throwing off our commitment to Christ and seeking His mind in us to be formed by God and a commitment to walk the walk daily (I have walked SO close to this line).

Nevertheless -- our life with Christ in this life is a Doorway and a narrow Pathway, and few there are who truly find it and remain on it. We can get lost in the "Once Save Always Saved" arguments and debates, but why? The simple matter is: Don't mess with eternity! Quit you like men! Stop playing around with Salvation just because your flesh loves to feed and sin! Stop it! Set your mind and affections on Christ! Baptism of water and of the Spirit are key in the life of a believer!

There are probably LOTS of people here with lots to say about it. That's what I see so far. I don't know it all. I will learn as I go. The mind of the Lord will be formed in me if so I submit myself to Him. Yet, here is what I see so far (above).

Edited November 9, 2007 by HisMindinme

[damo1]

hey damo I dont know if they they ''need'' to be baptised again but in revelation 2:1-8 ecspecialy in verses 4&5 it say because they had left their first love they should repent and do their first works over again.I can see how people would therefore claim that they should be baptised again as it could be part of our first works.But I dont think it is necassarly manditory.But if some one has rededicated their life to Christ and wants to be baptised again I do think they should be allowed to even encouraged to.I hope that helps.

damo1

no this is not what i am geting at i only just signed on and i notice you also have the same one as me but asking difrent question which puzzles me to what point you are trying to prove in your post it does not help at al as the way i said this in my post why should some one get baptized the second time when once is enough

and we do it the way paul did this with the disciples he met so as we do not confuse no one as their has been to much confusion already owingsaseagles

thanks for your responce but this is not what i am seeking

from damo

[Agape_CTL]

does a person need to be baptized the second time ?

No. When Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, Peter did not want Jesus to do it and Jesus response made Peter ask for Jesus to wash his whole body. Jesus then told Peter that he did not need to be wash all over. Jesus said one who has bathed does not need to bath again, only the dust of the road to be washed from his feet. Thus believers need to make sure the sin of the world is washed off us as we go out into the world, but we only require the baptism once.

in your churches do your pastors or leaders or your elders do a course before some one asks about baptism ?

Yes, the church I go to does. At the very least, it makes sure the people know that baptism is not what save a person. That is the work of the Holy Spirit on a persons heart.

do those that do baptize people with in their churches go by these principals in acts 19?

Yes, though they go by the whole NT says about baptism. It is not good pratice to go off of just one verus. Need at least two wittnesses for a statement to be valid. Not all display signs and wonders the moment the receive the Holy Spirit. The disicples did not. Read John 20:22 (Then he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit but it was not until Pentecost we see them display the power of the Holy Spirit. At Pentecost we see people receive and we see the power of the Holy Spirit at the same time. It does not happen that way every time though.

For me there was a year between my baptism and speaking in tounges. I saw people heal by the Holy Spirit through me before I spoke in tounges. Nothing on the outside showed up the day I was baptized. I have been told that I have the gift of teaching by many, the leaders of my church have prayed for me and gotten that I have the gift of prophesy. I have received words of wisdom and words of knowledge, but I am still learning about the gifts. I was not raised in a church that believed in gifts in operation. Clearly the gifts are in operation.

Hope this helps.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Agape_CTL

[christintime99]

This is a great question and I dont have a straight answer. Its been interesting reading peoples replies.

In my mind it brought up the baptism of Jesus.

When he approached john, john said something like, 'behold the lamb of god, who takes away the sins of the world, indeed i have baptised you with water, but HE shall baptise you with the holy ghost'.

Does this quote reveal anyting? it sure makes me think.

[patricia1]

Damo,

This is my opinion only guys so do not Jump on me...okay..?

Acts 19:1-7 indeed discusses both baptisms.

But I believe water baptism signifies a repentive , regeneration, a new beginning, cleansing( acts 22:16)( titus 3:5)

I also believe people get caught up with a good feeling and run to be baptised too soon. The zeal is there and yet the true knowledge.of the commandment and commintment is not. They fall and later return with a deeper awareness of Jesus and what being in unity of the family of God means.

I would not say it is uneccesary yet I would say the first baptism was unneccessary.

If that person feels the need to be baptised again , start a course when there is enough people and teach. Who ever is Left baptise them.

I got baptized in The Holy Spirit 1st. Yet that gift needs a certain amt of surrender...it is the Holy Spirt!!!

To publically deny the fleshly life is a act of will and obedience stateing that fact. I would not let a person be baptised again unless they have evidence of power of the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps a little.

and congratulations my dear one...you will have more deeper controversies than this one but Jesus will guide you to truth at all turns.......Glory to God!!!!!