Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest LadyC]

of course not all men are saved. that doesn't make God's plan a failure at all. it means he gave us the ability to excercise free will. it is not God's desire that any should perish, but He gives us, ALL of us, every opportunity to 'choose this day who you will serve'. that does not make Him less than soveriegn. to the contrary, it is a shining example of His soveriegnty, since He is the one who GAVE us free will. He doesn't lie.

it is not holding God accountable to human standards at all. God is the very definition of love. to say that He would only pick and choose a few, while denying others the opportunity and thus giving them no opportunity to escape the condemnation of eternal torment and separation from Him is contrary to His own word.

again, whoever believes in Him, not whoever God allows to believe in Him. you're right, we could go around in circles on what God didn't say. i choose not to put words in His mouth. i prefer to think God means exactly what He says. no hidden agenda.

[Work in Progress]

I agree!

of course not all men are saved. that doesn't make God's plan a failure at all.

Armenian way of thinking says that God wishes that none would perish. Jesus came for ALL to be saved.

Simple deduction says that, since all are not saved, the plan failed. I see no way around that.

[Work in Progress]

again, whoever believes in Him, not whoever God allows to believe in Him.

There is no descrepancy there. Whoever believes in Him will be saved. Absolutely true.

The difference in doctrine is - how do they come to believe in Him?

[Work in Progress]

no hidden agenda.

That implies that there is a "hidden agenda" in the Calvinist doctrine. No such 'hidden agenda' exists. Man is in a fallen state. God has a plan for His people to be saved from that fallen state. His plan is perfect, and no one "falls through the cracks". No one thwarts God's perfect plan, or invalidates it, or frustrates Him by rejecting it. God can not be frustrated or defeated. The plan is perfect and accomplishes its aim.

[Guest LadyC]

but is His plan really only for a select few, as the calvanistic approach seems to indicate? if it is, then why doesn't God's word say so? and since it doesn't, isn't that a hidden agenda in and of itself, that only those God has chosen to know Him have an advantage?

we won't change each other's minds on this, so i'll step away from the debate. i just praise God that He chose you, and that in His mercy He allowed me the freedom to believe in Him. :il:

[Guest mcm42]

All this ensued while I was bowling? I bowled well but now I'll throw my two sense, or cents, or uhh anyway

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

A calvinist would say that one cannot believe unless he is first given that ability by the Holy Spirit. We hang on our doctrine of Totaly Depravity and God's Total Sovereignty. You try to take those from a Calvinist/reformed and he will jump on it in a second.

Now, as far as the understanding of the verses that say "Christ died for all, world, all men," (naturally I do not want to quote them all) it is explained in this sense.

No longer is salvation, or choosing, only for the Jewish nation, it is now for the entire world, or all nations. NOt every individual but every people group... to simplify it Jews and Gentiles alike! So... Christ died for All men, not just jewish men, but All men, (that is again men as in people groups) and the same would go. Generally Context will help them in this debate.

Grrr... I'll get back to you on a good verse that shows this very point, and I would say that World, all, or all men... refers to this comparison (not just jews but all men, not just the Jewish nation, but All nations, or all the world!)

Also, we know it is God's Desire that all be saved, all are not saved, this fact brings trouble to both sides. The question that must be asked is if he really desired it why doesn't he make it happend? the answer is that he does things for his own purposes, for his own glory, we are not to question.

I digress, that is my position... hope it helps,

Man I can't believe I missed the whole debate

Oh, Ladyc you scare me (I read your posts in the kerry, bush, nader debate, yikes, you got some knowledge.) Thanks for being able to debate honestly and respectfully without getting all upset, I respect that... A lot :t:

[Guest LadyC]

i scare you? LOL, i think you meant that in a good way

seriously though, God will not force His will upon any man, no matter how much He desires it. if calvanism is correct, then i have to wonder... even if it is not my place to question... what makes me more worthy than the next guy of being selected?

the way i see it, nothing. i don't think God thinks i'm any more worthy than the next either.

[Work in Progress]

Amen. The fact that you are saved, that you are one of God's chosen, does not mean that you were more worthy than anyone else, in fact, the Bible says contrary. Amen again. ALL are born doomed. Whether or not it 'makes sense' or seems 'fair' is moot. God is God. Man fell, thereby causing every single human to be born with a sin nature contrary to God's Holy nature. Scripture says so. The fact that it doesn't seem 'fair' stopped concering me ages ago. It's a fact I have to deal with.

The fact that God made a way for some of His creation to be redeemed is awesome Grace. Why not all? Why does God pass over some? I have no idea and don't dwell on it. I know that ALL also have the choice, and that no one is "sent" to hell because of The Almighty. The two seem like a contradiction, but since I know there are no contradictions in Scripture and that it speaks only truth about this, I have total faith and trust in God on this matter. He plainly says that He chose some and He plainly says that all have the opportunity and are without excuse.

but is His plan really only for a select few, as the calvanistic approach seems to indicate? if it is, then why doesn't God's word say so? and since it doesn't, isn't that a hidden agenda in and of itself, that only those God has chosen to know Him have an advantage?

Can't answer that - because I believe God's word does indeed say so and it is very clear to me.

[Guest mcm42]

seriously though, God will not force His will upon any man, no matter how much He desires it.

I think I look at things a lot differently. The way I see it God is constantly forcing his will on us. If God be at all in control he must in some way force his will. I think of when he hardened Pharoh's heart (cf. rom 9) or so many times in the Bible, when the Jews were given victory, it was God's will being forced on both Israel and the surrounding camps.

constantly through Scripture we see God's hand working His will through man, without asking man first.

This is where my struggle is with the opposed calvinist is that it assumes God is not in control of the decisions of Man... i can't handle that. From a personal or a Biblical standpoint I just can't swallow that. To think that there is one area of creation that is not subject to the sovereign control of God, to me, is to take away the label of God completely!

pleas don't yell at me

J/K

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings MCM,

This is where my struggle is with the opposed calvinist is that it assumes God is not in control of the decisions of Man... i can't handle that. From a personal or a Biblical standpoint I just can't swallow that. To think that there is one area of creation that is not subject to the sovereign control of God, to me, is to take away the label of God completely!

It is NOT that God controls us, but has FULL KNOWLEDGE of our every action from the beginning to the very end. Thus He is able to use ALL creation to bring about His perfect will.

Most certainly God continues through His Son, to intervene in the lives of men, even as He did with Adam in the Garden. He could have put the kabosh on the Serpent BEFORE Adam was tempted, but did not. Once we are given His commands, we then become responsible for obeying them. He doesn't MAKE us obey them, and that is where "choice" comes in or "freewill".

I too am very glad that God has everything under control and that I need not fear, doubt or worry, for whatever comes my way, He knew about ages ago and made appropriate preparations for it - way back then.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie