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Calvin vs. Arminius


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What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?  

353 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      72
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70


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Guest mcm42
It is NOT that God controls us, but has FULL KNOWLEDGE of our every action from the beginning to the very end. Thus He is able to use ALL creation to bring about His perfect will.

This is a crippled view. I have tackled it in other boards and I will do so again here. The idea that God looks down through the corridor of Time to see who will choose him, and then he chooses those who chose him is a farce.

quoting R.C. Sproul "Loved By God" p. 95 "In this scenario the decisive factor in electionis performed by the sinners who correctly resond to God's offer to grace. The decision of God rests upon His foreknowledge of decisions of men. It is man's free will that determines his election or non-election.

This veiw of election suffers from several fatal flaws. Among them is that first the view flatly contradicts the very point Paul is making in Romans 9. What does he mean by writing "for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, thtat the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works but of Him who calls" ....

"Jesus says, "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (John 6:60-68) If we analyze this we see that 'no on' indicates a universal negative propposition. It means that none in a certain class have theh predicate attriputed to them.. What is being described in terms of a universal negative? Jesus says no one CAN. Jesus is speaking here of power or ability to do somethiing. Since He speaks of this particular ability in univiersal negative terms, He is describing a universal inability.

That should be more than enough, also I must quote two more passages..

1. "Do not murmur among yourselves, no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I wil raise him up at the last day" (john 6:43-44)

2. Romans 9:14-18 "What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to MOses, "i will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the scripture says of Pharoah, "for this very purpose I have raised you up that I may show my power in you and that my name amy be delcared in all the earth. Therefore he has mercy on whom he wills and whom he wills he hardens

Answer Romans nine with your views of God seeking to see who will follow him and who will not, and it will show you that election occurs long before you ever made a decision! In fact it will show you that God creates for His glory alone. And it will show you that God can make from the same lump of clay a vessel made for wrath and a vessel made for mercy, and who is the clay to say to the potter,"why have you made me this way?"

If nothiing else will declare, and I believe much will, but if nothing else will declare the choosing of God's people, by God it is Romans 9. No talk of works, or decisions here, only talk of those whom God has chosen, and those whom he has not.

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2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

mcm

I would suggest that you do not put your salvation in the hands of interpretations of men. God has never told us to read anything but His Scriptures, and to meditate in Them (The Scriptures) day and night, and to pray always in The Spirit. If you will follow God's advice you will come out of your darkness.

Your satement about Gods foreknowledge is nothing but foolishness, not because I say so but because Peter, and Paul says it is so.

2 Pet 1:1-4

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

(KJV)

1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(KJV)

Rom 8:28-29

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(KJV)

But then I guess if you don't have freewill to choose which you will believe I guess God has predestined you to believe in man rather than God. And then even sadder than that you lump your salvation into a ball of clay and turn it over to the hands of a potter.

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mcm42 wrote:

The way I see it God is constantly forcing his will on us.

This goes against everything that I have learned from the new testament.

God-man, thanks for the explanation, I had never heard the "DAISY vs. TULIP" before. I voted 100% DAISY, but like you, I'm not sure that this is quite the right medium for this discussion. But thank you very much for the informative thread! :blink:

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Guest mcm42
I would suggest that you do not put your salvation in the hands of interpretations of men. God has never told us to read anything but His Scriptures, and to meditate in Them (The Scriptures) day and night, and to pray always in The Spirit. If you will follow God's advice you will come out of your darkness.

WEll then again, as I have said before, I see no reason why you are reading worthy boards! Why are you here when you could be reading your Scripture? In fact if you believe that we are not to listen to men's interpretations, why then do you go on to give me your interpretation? You certainly cannot expect me to believe someone who tells me first not to believe him?

But then I guess if you don't have freewill to choose which you will believe I guess God has predestined you to believe in man rather than God. And then even sadder than that you lump your salvation into a ball of clay and turn it over to the hands of a potter.

Indeed I do. My ball of clay is much better off in the hands of the almighty Potter then they are to myself. Good point I might add. HOw does a ball of clay mold itself? Or Does it need a molder. In fact does the Molder first choose what the clay will be or does he ask the clay first? And if the clay disagreed would the Potter say "hmmm your right clay, and I the creator am wrong". This is silliness. Why would you denounce the Giving over of my salvation to God Almighty? Rather I suppose your salvation is better off in your hands? You knew better how to handle your life and so God sought it necessary to foreknow His creations which was Wiser than him?

How do you suppose my belief in a God who is in Total control of my decisions, is a belief in Man? It can not be! For I put no faith in men, but my entire salvation is given over to God, who chooses, and has mercy. And yet you will tell me that God waited for YOU to Choose Him, giving you the control, and not him. Which is more of a Belief in Man? The one who believes God Makes the ultimate decisions, or the one who believes Mand Makes the Decisions?

As for Scriptures, I am certainly not lacking...

Eph 1-

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9-

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, "

John 6-

"44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

John 6-

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father"

John 10-

26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

2 Timothy-

"9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

This is far more convincing to me than any of what you have Quoted.

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For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeson.net/InTruth/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due. :P

I'm neither because both have stances against the doctrine of the Apostles and of the Fathers of the Church.

Why rely on the knowledge of 2 ppl from the XVIII century when the christian doctrine of the first 5 centuries is so absolutely clear?.

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Seems to me that the Gospel is not quite so simple, and should not be reduced to such a formula.

Certainly, both of these approaches have some merit to them. But the only thing more dangerous than an outright lie, is a half-truth. Both of these formulae, in my estimation, are half-truths.

All things considered, I'd rather just call myself a "Christian".

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I'm neither because both have stances against the doctrine of the Apostles and of the Fathers of the Church.

Why rely on the knowledge of 2 ppl from the XVIII century when the christian doctrine of the first 5 centuries is so absolutely clear?.

Could it be? Is it possible?

I'm with Mobile on this one. Man, I never thought I would say that. ;)

But wait...isn't there a lot of Catholic doctrine that had its origin long after the 5th century?

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This debate has gone on for decades, and it is necessary to confine my comments to a few. Just a few of the errors of Calvinism:

-misuses the term "elect". Specifically, Paul In Romans re. Jacob/Esau is speaking to corporate election of the nation of Israel, not individual salvation. Elect simply means "chosen"-the context determines it's meaning. Did you know Judas was "elect"? Most of the time the passages Calvinists claim support their false doctrine is referring to service and santification, not salvation.

-denies the truth of the 2 natures in the believer

-denigrates faith by teaching that regeneration proceeds faith. In laymen's terms, you are spiritually dead, you cannot believe until you are regenerated. You are given the faith to believe, i.e., you are regenerated first, and that enables you to believe-faith is a gift. This falsely teaches that faith is a gift of God rather than salvation

-But notice the biblical order:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..." Eph. 1:13

=you hear, you believe, you are sealed-The Holy Spirit seals after you hear and hear and believe

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Galatians 3:2

=The Holy Spirit is not received until after you have heard. So much for a "dead" man being so depraved that he cannot hear.

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." 1 Thel. 2:13

=heard, believed, "worketh...in you"(regeneration and sanctification)

This "fits in" with the Calvinistic denial of free will(it has to to fit their "philosophy"). That is, they believe that no sinner could of his own will obey the command to believe(he must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit first), since he is uterly "depraved"('dead"-Eph. 2:1-6). Calvinists will tell you this is an illustration of man's total inability(depravity) of a man who is dead and cannot see, hear, speak, or move, or believe. What they won't say, however, that although the sinner is dead in sins, he is not unresponsive! Rather, he is separated from God. He is certainly alive enough to reject the Saviour ! I guess no one told Stephen that people cannot "resist the Holy Ghost"(Acts 7:51).

Calvinists will tell you that Abel,Abraham, Issac, Noah, Enoch, Joseph,David......were all quickened, "regenerated", by the Holy Spirit to be enabled them to believe to be saved. They have to tell you this to conform to their belief that man is so depraved that he must be re-generated by the Holy Spirit first. That is a falsehood. There was not a regenerated man in that whole group. Ever why David said:

"... and take not thy holy spirit from me." Psalms 51:11

No regeneration! The seed, the Lord Jesus Christ, had to fall to the ground and die first(John 12:24) before it could bring forth much fruit(Is. 53:10). The seed had not fallen prior to Calvary! All sinners in Ex. 35:5, 21-22 obeyed God while they were unregenerated, "depraved", "dead in their traspasses and sins", lost men.

-miscellaneous thoughts:

"For God so loved the world (of the elect), that he gave his only begotten Son(to the elect), that whosever(of the elect) believeth in him shall not perish , but have eternal life".

Apparently, according to Calvinists, this verse mandates that there is a possibility that some of the elect may not believe. No amount of "word games" can change this logical conclusion, or the words have absolutely no meaning(Calvinists also do this with the word "all"-the "Bill Clinton" trick-"It depends on how you define the word all").

Saved means rescued from danger. Calvin's elect are never in danger of loss so from what are they saved? The answer is nothing. Therefore the verses that speak of being saved are not valid verses if Calvin is to be believed.

Lost means lost, not rescued from danger. How can one lose something that he/she can never possess? They cannot. If you never have the will to choose, then you can never be rescued, and yet the very words of the Bible indicate a choice is to be made!

Watch the "spin" begin.

In Christ,

John Whalen

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Guest LadyC

watch the spin begin? it began two pages ago!

good post by the way. scroll back some and see how john 3:16 was spun when i disected it earlier.

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I'm neither because both have stances against the doctrine of the Apostles and of the Fathers of the Church.

Why rely on the knowledge of 2 ppl from the XVIII century when the christian doctrine of the first 5 centuries is so absolutely clear?.

Could it be? Is it possible?

I'm with Mobile on this one. Man, I never thought I would say that. :P

But wait...isn't there a lot of Catholic doctrine that had its origin long after the 5th century?

Right on Steve_Hut!!!

Let's team-up to defeat once and for all these lil' flowers (Calvin & Arminius that is) :blink: :t3:

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