Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest Biblicist]

Shalom,

This is right on!

We are not followers of men, or men's ideas, we are followers of Messiah and we live by the Bible, not TULIPS or DAISEYs.

I voted that I am neither. I have heard it said that you are one or the other, and that if you are not a Calvinist, you are automatically an Arminian. However, this is not the truth.

I despise these types of divisions within the Body as they focus too much on man's ways and not enough on G-d's.

Hello Vickilynn,

Welcome to Worthy!

Thank you for your kind words. And AMEN!

[jgb321]

Well may I add my take on this whole subject, if you

Edited February 27, 2007 by jgb321

[mikehev]

God is great all the time and in every way.

One quick point about the idea of God foreordaining every thing that happened/happens.

It can be summed up this way.

Everything that takes place, has taken place, and will take place is either decreed by or permitted by God. Thus, he has indeed foreordained all things.

One more thought:

Man's freedom will never impose on God's sovereignty.

[Guest closer865]

I'm still not convinced one way or the other, But to me, if there will be alot more people going to hell than heaven, it appears as if Satan has won the battle for the most souls. I just don't think that God would allow satan to deceive the majority of people on earth. If God wanted everyone to be saved and go to heaven, then it looks like He either didn't give us enough evidence for everyone to believe, or Satan's deceiving powers must be stronger than the power of God's love. I think God is in complete control of everything.

[Guest schneider]

I have a problem with how Calvinists get to define sovereignty in a way to win the argument before we can even talk.

Can God create man with free will and still be sovereign? I think so...that is why there is judgement at the end. Because God is sovereign, He will judge us based on choices we made within free will. If there is no free will, then what is he judging? I think He would be judging His own decisions that were worked through us if we had no free will. I don't think free will takes away from God's sovereignty, because God (in His sovereignty) gave us free will.

By the way, I am new to the forum and a relatively new Christian. I just started looking at this debate within Christianity and really enjoy searching the bible on this topic! I look forward to any replies.

[EricH]

I have a problem with how Calvinists get to define sovereignty in a way to win the argument before we can even talk.

Can God create man with free will and still be sovereign? I think so...that is why there is judgement at the end. Because God is sovereign, He will judge us based on choices we made within free will. If there is no free will, then what is he judging? I think He would be judging His own decisions that were worked through us if we had no free will. I don't think free will takes away from God's sovereignty, because God (in His sovereignty) gave us free will.

By the way, I am new to the forum and a relatively new Christian. I just started looking at this debate within Christianity and really enjoy searching the bible on this topic! I look forward to any replies.

Hey Schneider,

You are asking all the right questions.

Just a thought in terms of God's judgment. The only time that man has been completely free was in the Garden. Once sin entered the picture, man became spiritually dead and incurred God's judgement. According to Jesus God's judgement has already come:

Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. "This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

John 3:17-18 HCSB

The final judgment is just an execution of the sentence God has already handed down on all people. All people are born under this judgment, because all are born spiritually dead. The final judgement will simply seal the separation that has existed since the person was born

[Phil.2:12]

I just don't think that God would allow satan to deceive the majority of people on earth. If God wanted everyone to be saved and go to heaven, then it looks like He either didn't give us enough evidence for everyone to believe, or Satan's deceiving powers must be stronger than the power of God's love. I think God is in complete control of everything.

God isn't the one who opened the door to Satan into His (God's) perfect creation. Adam performed that feat with a willing mind and a decision he made not to keep God's only commandment to him. And yes, the deceptions of Satan are strong, but God's love is stronger. God does want everyone to be saved and has already provided everything we need to make our salvation a reality. We humans, with our free will to do what we want, are the ones that keeps mucking up God's will for us. We are the ones who have to choose, of our own free will, to accept the payment for our sin debt that Jesus accomplished on the Cross. There are some things God cannot do such as lie and some things He will not do like override our free will.

God is in complete control and part of that control is that He will not override our free will. If we choose to disregard Jesus totally, God will allow that to happen because He wants humans coming to Him of their own free will. If He suppressed our free will and imposed His will that we accept the gift of salvation Jesus paid for on the Cross whether we wanted it or not, we would not be the creation He made in the Garden of Eden, but would instead be a puppet who would jump and twitch every time God pulled one of our strings. It is essential to God's plan that mankind's free will be kept intact, just like God created us when He created Adam and Eve.

[Tubal-Cain]

I don't claim to be that knowledgeable on either Calvinism or Arminianism so I'll merely comment on the acronyms for now. I also haven't read the rest of the thread because it's 67 pages long.

Let's start with Calvinism. (1) Total depravity seems to go a little too far. I know it is only claiming this depravity in the spiritual realm (as opposed to the moral realm) but I'm guessing there are sinful people who have chosen good over evil in the spiritual realm. (2) Unconditional election seems to rule out any notion of free will so I don't agree with that. (3) I disagree with the idea of limited atonement because the Bible seems quite explicit that Christ died for everyone, not just the elect. (4) If irresistable grace were something only some people experienced experienced I would agree but it seems to be saying that all the elect experience it. I imagine there are Christians who have to wrestle with sin and it may be erroneous to say that they are receiving irresistable grace. (5) Perseverance of the saints sounds OK. In conclusion, I like the stress that Calvinism puts on God's grace but I think it goes too far and ignores human free will. I also think it is quite clear that God wants to save everyone.

Now to Arminianism. (1) The idea of (partial) depravity seems to be better than the idea of total depravity. (2) Arbitrary selection, unlike unconditional election, opens the way for free will but seems to error in saying that the sinner's choice is the ultimate cause of salvation. The fact that salvation is even an option is due to God's grace. (3) Inequitable Limitation is correct in saying that Christ's death and resurrection made salvation open to all if they accept it. (4) The notion of the sovereignty of the sinner causes some problems to me. If the Spirit does all it can to save a sinner I don't think it could fail. Since not all are believers in this life obviously the Spirit is not doing all it can to save sinners right now. However, God wants to save all and hence it is only logical that at some point in the future he would have His Spirit do all it can to save sinners. When that event occurs the only logical conclusion is that all our saved -- universalism. (5) I have on firm opinion on eternal security but believe all will eventually be saved. In summary, I think Arminianism understands man's free will but that it limits God's power.

My views on the topics raised by Calvinism and Arminianism would be as follows:

- Partial depravity

- God's grace allows eternal life to exist. People in this life, to varying degrees, either choose the gospel are convinced of its truthfulness. Either way the righteous go to heaven after death while the sinners do not.

- Christ died for everyone's sins and God wills that all are saved. Since God is all-powerful and wants to save everyone there is no possibility of eternal damnation. Any punishment in the afterlife is of a limited duration.

[forgiven1]

Whoa! Long thread! I'm new to the thread so I really can't go through all this but I will state my position.

I would say going by just these two choices, I would be 80% Arminian and 20 % Calvin. Didn't agree with Arminian over the possibility to lose salvation, I agree more with Calvin on eternal security, but not on the other points. Since there are 5 points in each position, giving each point 20% is how I arrived at my decision. Unfortunately, there wasn't the 80/20% option in the poll so I didn't vote.

[Guest stegokitty]

Whoa! Long thread! I'm new to the thread so I really can't go through all this but I will state my position.

I would say going by just these two choices, I would be 80% Arminian and 20 % Calvin. Didn't agree with Arminian over the possibility to lose salvation, I agree more with Calvin on eternal security, but not on the other points. Since there are 5 points in each position, giving each point 20% is how I arrived at my decision. Unfortunately, there wasn't the 80/20% option in the poll so I didn't vote.

The only problem is, that the only consistent position, and the only one that does the Word of God justice, without attempting to make "excuses" for God, and while giving him all the glory in salvation, the only true position is the Calvinist/Augustinian/Pauline/Christian position. This can be amply proven by the Scriptures alone, but it often helps to have a "help". I highly suggest one (or both) of these books. If you are a light reader, then read CHOSEN BY GOD by RC Sproul. This book alone, shows in clear and concise language the utter bankruptcy of the Arminian view, and that the only view a thinking and honest Christian ought to believe is the Biblical one, the one nicknamed Calvinism.

If you are like me, and want to get the most bang for the buck, to get down to the nitty gritty; if you are daring enough to allow your present belief system to be challenged to a degree that you never thought possible, and consequently if you want to learn the magnificence of God's grace to a level that can only be appreciated by those in the Reformed tradition (not that we don't considered those in the Arminian camp as Christians, but we freely admit that they are believing a religion of the flesh, and a doctrine that elevates man where he ought not to be, and diminishes the grace of God to a level that if brought to its logical conclusion, ensures that absolutely no one will be saved), then read THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION by Loraine Boettner.

You may contact me via stegokitty at yahoo dot com and I will gladly re-read either book along with you, and discuss it chapter by chapter with you. I promise that if you are willing to believe in a God that's bigger than you even believe in now, then you will indeed increase your love and appreciation, your awe and wonder at the great Triune God.

I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you.

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord lift his countenance upon you, and give you peace; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.

Stego