Calvin vs. Arminius

[methinkshe]

Whoa! Long thread! I'm new to the thread so I really can't go through all this but I will state my position.

I would say going by just these two choices, I would be 80% Arminian and 20 % Calvin. Didn't agree with Arminian over the possibility to lose salvation, I agree more with Calvin on eternal security, but not on the other points. Since there are 5 points in each position, giving each point 20% is how I arrived at my decision. Unfortunately, there wasn't the 80/20% option in the poll so I didn't vote.

The only problem is, that the only consistent position, and the only one that does the Word of God justice, without attempting to make "excuses" for God, and while giving him all the glory in salvation, the only true position is the Calvinist/Augustinian/Pauline/Christian position. This can be amply proven by the Scriptures alone, but it often helps to have a "help". I highly suggest one (or both) of these books. If you are a light reader, then read CHOSEN BY GOD by RC Sproul. This book alone, shows in clear and concise language the utter bankruptcy of the Arminian view, and that the only view a thinking and honest Christian ought to believe is the Biblical one, the one nicknamed Calvinism.

If you are like me, and want to get the most bang for the buck, to get down to the nitty gritty; if you are daring enough to allow your present belief system to be challenged to a degree that you never thought possible, and consequently if you want to learn the magnificence of God's grace to a level that can only be appreciated by those in the Reformed tradition (not that we don't considered those in the Arminian camp as Christians, but we freely admit that they are believing a religion of the flesh, and a doctrine that elevates man where he ought not to be, and diminishes the grace of God to a level that if brought to its logical conclusion, ensures that absolutely no one will be saved), then read THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION by Loraine Boettner.

You may contact me via stegokitty at yahoo dot com and I will gladly re-read either book along with you, and discuss it chapter by chapter with you. I promise that if you are willing to believe in a God that's bigger than you even believe in now, then you will indeed increase your love and appreciation, your awe and wonder at the great Triune God.

I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you.

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord lift his countenance upon you, and give you peace; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.

Stego

Hi, Stego,

"I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you."

You'd be preaching to the converted! I agree with you, especially those parts I have bolded.

Ruth

[Guest stegokitty]

Whoa! Long thread! I'm new to the thread so I really can't go through all this but I will state my position.

I would say going by just these two choices, I would be 80% Arminian and 20 % Calvin. Didn't agree with Arminian over the possibility to lose salvation, I agree more with Calvin on eternal security, but not on the other points. Since there are 5 points in each position, giving each point 20% is how I arrived at my decision. Unfortunately, there wasn't the 80/20% option in the poll so I didn't vote.

The only problem is, that the only consistent position, and the only one that does the Word of God justice, without attempting to make "excuses" for God, and while giving him all the glory in salvation, the only true position is the Calvinist/Augustinian/Pauline/Christian position. This can be amply proven by the Scriptures alone, but it often helps to have a "help". I highly suggest one (or both) of these books. If you are a light reader, then read CHOSEN BY GOD by RC Sproul. This book alone, shows in clear and concise language the utter bankruptcy of the Arminian view, and that the only view a thinking and honest Christian ought to believe is the Biblical one, the one nicknamed Calvinism.

If you are like me, and want to get the most bang for the buck, to get down to the nitty gritty; if you are daring enough to allow your present belief system to be challenged to a degree that you never thought possible, and consequently if you want to learn the magnificence of God's grace to a level that can only be appreciated by those in the Reformed tradition (not that we don't considered those in the Arminian camp as Christians, but we freely admit that they are believing a religion of the flesh, and a doctrine that elevates man where he ought not to be, and diminishes the grace of God to a level that if brought to its logical conclusion, ensures that absolutely no one will be saved), then read THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION by Loraine Boettner.

You may contact me via stegokitty at yahoo dot com and I will gladly re-read either book along with you, and discuss it chapter by chapter with you. I promise that if you are willing to believe in a God that's bigger than you even believe in now, then you will indeed increase your love and appreciation, your awe and wonder at the great Triune God.

I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you.

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord lift his countenance upon you, and give you peace; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.

Stego

Hi, Stego,

"I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you."

You'd be preaching to the converted! I agree with you, especially those parts I have bolded.

Ruth

Well, that's not really true. If you are saying that you disagree with the Calvinist position, then you cannot possibly appreciate what I am talking about.

Again, I do offer to have private email conversation with you concerning these things and to show you the very large difference between the Biblical teaching on God's loving, electing salvation of sinners vs the fleshly Arminian view.

Please do write me at stegokitty at yahoo dot com.

Thanks,

Stego

[methinkshe]

Whoa! Long thread! I'm new to the thread so I really can't go through all this but I will state my position.

I would say going by just these two choices, I would be 80% Arminian and 20 % Calvin. Didn't agree with Arminian over the possibility to lose salvation, I agree more with Calvin on eternal security, but not on the other points. Since there are 5 points in each position, giving each point 20% is how I arrived at my decision. Unfortunately, there wasn't the 80/20% option in the poll so I didn't vote.

The only problem is, that the only consistent position, and the only one that does the Word of God justice, without attempting to make "excuses" for God, and while giving him all the glory in salvation, the only true position is the Calvinist/Augustinian/Pauline/Christian position. This can be amply proven by the Scriptures alone, but it often helps to have a "help". I highly suggest one (or both) of these books. If you are a light reader, then read CHOSEN BY GOD by RC Sproul. This book alone, shows in clear and concise language the utter bankruptcy of the Arminian view, and that the only view a thinking and honest Christian ought to believe is the Biblical one, the one nicknamed Calvinism.

If you are like me, and want to get the most bang for the buck, to get down to the nitty gritty; if you are daring enough to allow your present belief system to be challenged to a degree that you never thought possible, and consequently if you want to learn the magnificence of God's grace to a level that can only be appreciated by those in the Reformed tradition (not that we don't considered those in the Arminian camp as Christians, but we freely admit that they are believing a religion of the flesh, and a doctrine that elevates man where he ought not to be, and diminishes the grace of God to a level that if brought to its logical conclusion, ensures that absolutely no one will be saved), then read THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION by Loraine Boettner.

You may contact me via stegokitty at yahoo dot com and I will gladly re-read either book along with you, and discuss it chapter by chapter with you. I promise that if you are willing to believe in a God that's bigger than you even believe in now, then you will indeed increase your love and appreciation, your awe and wonder at the great Triune God.

I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you.

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord lift his countenance upon you, and give you peace; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you.

Stego

Hi, Stego,

"I have challenged many people to meet with me, and no one (so far) has accepted the "challenge". I'm hoping that someone will. I hope it will be you."

You'd be preaching to the converted! I agree with you, especially those parts I have bolded.

Ruth

Well, that's not really true. If you are saying that you disagree with the Calvinist position, then you cannot possibly appreciate what I am talking about.

Again, I do offer to have private email conversation with you concerning these things and to show you the very large difference between the Biblical teaching on God's loving, electing salvation of sinners vs the fleshly Arminian view.

Please do write me at stegokitty at yahoo dot com.

Thanks,

Stego

I am agreeing with you - 100% - which is why you would be preaching to the converted!

[Guest stegokitty]

I am agreeing with you - 100% - which is why you would be preaching to the converted!

Oops! I'm sorry Ruth. I wasn't paying attention to whom I was replying. I thought you were "forgiven1" (or however it's spelled). My mistake. That must've been a little frustrating to you as well, eh?

Indeed this is a rather long thread, but no one has been able to challenge me on my (our) position. I'm glad in one way, because it only means that I've put up a bullet-proof defense of the Doctrines of Grace. I'm sad in another way because it means I don't get to disprove the Arminian/SemiPelagian heresies again, which is a favourite pastime. But more importantly, I don't get to (hopefully) experience another soul leaving behind the religion of the flesh and embracing the Biblical truths of God's wonderful, patient and perfect election of sinners unto himself. He justifies them; he adopts them; he sanctifies them; he glorifies them.

Glory to his name forever!

Thanks for the reply. It's good to know that, even though we're in the minority report, that we're not alone.

Stego

Edited May 25, 2007 by stegokitty

[st. Worm]

Time to weigh in with the real answer.

Both Calvinism AND Arminianism are false to some extent. The Bible clearly teaches that the cross was for all men yet it also teaches that there is nothing within us that is the cause of our salvation. The Calvinist idea that the cross was only for the elect and the Arminian idea that salvation is based on some choice or "free will" decision (as if there were such a thing!) are inventions. Justification of the sinner by the gift of faith is an act of God's grace through election yet the atonement is not a limited one. It should not bother you that you can't logically reconcile that unless of course you trust your logic more than God's Word.

sw

[Guest stegokitty]

Time to weigh in with the real answer.

Both Calvinism AND Arminianism are false to some extent. The Bible clearly teaches that the cross was for all men yet it also teaches that there is nothing within us that is the cause of our salvation. The Calvinist idea that the cross was only for the elect and the Arminian idea that salvation is based on some choice or "free will" decision (as if there were such a thing!) are inventions. Justification of the sinner by the gift of faith is an act of God's grace through election yet the atonement is not a limited one. It should not bother you that you can't logically reconcile that unless of course you trust your logic more than God's Word.

sw

The Bible no more teaches that the sufferings and death of Christ was for every individual than it teaches that the OT sacrificial system was for anyone but the covenant community of Israel and NOT for the pagans on the outside of that covenant.

Did Christ die for the sins of Pharoah? What an absurdity! Such suffering and death would be a waste of time since it would be impossible to apply that death to him, who was specifially raised up to show the greatness of God through the disobedience and wickedness of the king of Egypt. And immediately God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will harden whom I will harden". Though he is merciful, he does not have mercy upon all. Neither is he obligated thus.

Christ said very clearly that he laid his life down for the SHEEP. He goes on to say that HIS SHEEP know his voice, etc. He also goes on to say to certain men who were there trying to trap him, that they were NOT his sheep. He sent his disciples to preach the gospel to his sheep in other places. These were people who were not yet believers but would be, because Christ came for them, suffered for them, died for them. If Christ died for the sins of every person, then every person is no longer guilty of their sins, and there is no reason for them to be cast into the Lake of Fire on the Last Day.

You cannot (and God cannot) punish Christ for the sins of a man, and then also punish that man for his sins. That would be unjust, and God is not unjust. Either Christ paid for a man's sins and he is no longer guilty in the sight of God, or Christ did NOT die for his sins, and he remains dead in his sins.

The atonement is limited not in power but in scope. It is applied only to the elect, and it was only ever for the elect, since God is not a man and cannot change his mind, nor is there a "plan B". A better and more suitable name for this doctrine is "Particular Redemption", rather than "Limited Atonement", because people misunderstand it's meaning.

This is all reasoned FROM the Scriptures. If you have any knowledge of the Word, then you know good and well each verse to which I am referring when I make these statements. You wish to live in a world devoid of logic derived from the Word, go right ahead. I know better, and the God of that Word demands that I THINK about what that Word says rather than get tied up in a single verse, divorced from its context, and rely upon my feelings. No, reasoning from the Word, from the whole Word of God (both OT and NT kept within their historical contexts) is how one better learns what one ought to think.

A universal atonement renders much of the Bible incomprehensible, and worse, contradictory.

Again, I invite you (and anyone else with the guts for that matter) to a challenge in reading something from the perspective of Grace rather than whatever scam books (such as the unscholarly garbage book by Norman Geisler "Chosen But Free") you've read. I offer two books (though I could offer more) for the taking. One is "Chosen By God" by RC Sproul; the other is "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Lorrain Boettner. I challenge anyone to prayerfully, and thoughtfully "attack" either of these books, with an open mind and heart, and come away unchanged. I challenge anyone to a debate AFTER reading eithe of these books. The first one is for light readers; the second is for those who want to dig down deep, and even that book is not exhaustive in it's treatment of the related Doctrines.

There it is.

[st. Worm]

Quote:

There it is.

LOL! There WHAT is dear soul? There is not a single verse of scripture to support the Calvinistic error of limited atonement.

The belief in a universal, objective justification is not based on the fact that this is useful as a comforting doctrine. It is based on the clear statements of Scripture that Christ paid for all the sins of everyone in the world, even for the sins of the unbelievers who are lost. For example:

1 Timothy 4:10: We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

[Guest lynn05]

I will keep this simple, and I apologize if it is not too theological. Growing up in a "Calvinistic" home, I read many passages in the Bible that refer to the Elect and I feel that there is some support for it. However, as I review the dates of the thread, I cannot help but think back on what occurred in my life during those days. God almost took my college-aged son "home" during those days of the thread. About the first week of the thread, trying not to cry, I was asking my son these questions, knowing he was at death's door: "Do you believe in Jesus? Did you ask for forgiveness and ask Him into your heart? Did you ask Him into your life?" When he told me "yes," I knew that this is all that was important--that all the labels in the world can not gain one's entrance into heaven--no matter what side you are on with the battle of doctrines, it comes down to a few basic questions . . . and God's gift to us. I must confess that both my side and my husband's side played a role in these long-fought-out battles, my ancestors coming from a very Calvinistic Holland and my Husband's fleeing to America in the 17th century from England, during heated battles over these very same doctrines!

[Guest stegokitty]

I will keep this simple, and I apologize if it is not too theological. Growing up in a "Calvinistic" home, I read many passages in the Bible that refer to the Elect and I feel that there is some support for it. However, as I review the dates of the thread, I cannot help but think back on what occurred in my life during those days. God almost took my college-aged son "home" during those days of the thread. About the first week of the thread, trying not to cry, I was asking my son these questions, knowing he was at death's door: "Do you believe in Jesus? Did you ask for forgiveness and ask Him into your heart? Did you ask Him into your life?" When he told me "yes," I knew that this is all that was important--that all the labels in the world can not gain one's entrance into heaven--no matter what side you are on with the battle of doctrines, it comes down to a few basic questions . . . and God's gift to us. I must confess that both my side and my husband's side played a role in these long-fought-out battles, my ancestors coming from a very Calvinistic Holland and my Husband's fleeing to America in the 17th century from England, during heated battles over these very same doctrines!

Lynn,

Rest assured that no one is questioning the salvation of either Calvinists or Arminians. God has elected men, women, and children from every tribe, tongue, and nation, including both camps of Theological debate concerning the decrees of God, and what role man plays in his own salvation. Neither side of the doctrine will gain a person entrance into the kingdom of Christ. Salvation is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Both camps basically agree with this premise, it's just that the Arminian cannot do so consistently.

The issue at hand is that Arminianism is a man glorifying position, a religious position of the flesh, and of a divorcing of the Scriptures from their historical contexts. Calvinism on the other hand is consistently glorifying to God, the religion of the Bible, and of the Spirit, and is derived from "letting" God be God, and taking the Scriptures as they are understood from their historical (as well as universal) contexts. We don't have to make excuses for the actions of God, for they are fully justified by his character. Arminianism is the grandfather of Mormonism, and every other cult, since it denies the absolute sovereignty of God, and denies the complete and permeating depravity of the soul of man.

If your child was prior to the age of reasoning, and did not yet know he was a sinner, justly deserving God's wrath and curse, where would the Arminian say he went when he died? He'd probably say Heaven, but inconsistently. The Arminian is stuck with the necessity of the action of man to be saved, whereas covenant Theology, that of the Bible, found in Calvinism, can with good reason show that especially children of the elect are saved by virtue of their parents' faith, and of their baptism. Furthermore, they might even be so bold as to say that all infants dying in infancy are elect.

Calvinism is simply the expression of God's grace. That's why it's also nick-named the Doctrines of Grace.

Blessings to you and your husband, and may your joy be complete when you meet your child in the sinless, painless, and deathless consummated kingdom of Christ.

Stego

[Diolectic]

If your child was prior to the age of reasoning, and did not yet know he was a sinner, justly deserving God's wrath and curse, where would the Arminian say he went when he died? He'd probably say Heaven, but inconsistently. The Arminian is stuck with the necessity of the action of man to be saved, whereas covenant Theology, that of the Bible, found in Calvinism, can with good reason show that especially children of the elect are saved by virtue of their parents' faith, and of their baptism. Furthermore, they might even be so bold as to say that all infants dying in infancy are elect.

What does a child prior to the age of reasoning need saved from?

The child would go to heaven because it had not yet sinned, no inconsistency there.

Children prior to the age of reasoning are saved not by virtue of their parents' faith, but by virtue of inocence.

Calvinism on the other hand is consistently glorifying to God,

On the contrary, I have learnd that Calvinism makes God out to be a tyrant that make demands without providing away to comply.

The demand to repent with out giving the faith or the so called regeneration to even repent.

I have a view that makes Man responsible for being thrown to hell while Calvinism, on the other hand, makes God to be pre-damning people before the foundation of the world which makes hell not only made for the devil and his angles only, but also for man.

The Bible no more teaches that the sufferings and death of Christ was for every individual than it teaches that the OT sacrificial system was for anyone but the covenant community of Israel and NOT for the pagans on the outside of that covenant.

Do you even know what atonement is?

Did Christ die for the sins of Pharoah?

Yes!

How eles would one say to sinners while preaching to them, "repent for Christ died for your sinns that you might be saved from God's wrath."

You cannot (and God cannot) punish Christ for the sins of a man, and then also punish that man for his sins.

God will punish that man for his sins if that man does not take advantage of Christ's sacrifice.

The atonement is limited not in power but in scope.

Quit deminishing the Atonement!

Atonement is not only effectual after one believes.

You make the atonement of Christ a potential work instead of an active work. You make the atonement of Christ exclusive and not inclusive.

The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.