Calvin vs. Arminius

[st. Worm]

Di, every time you post you restate the discussion. To discuss this with you is like trying to nail a custard pie to the side of a barn. The issue is not whether your sins are still charged to your account. The issue is what you deserve. You have a bizarre view of grace if you think you deserve grace. No one is saying you will pay the penalty for your sins if you are a believer. However for you to say you don't deserve that punishment indicates you have no idea about the gospel and the grace it entails. Everyone one of us deserves hell, but you receive Heaven if you are a believer. The only people I know who say they deserve Heaven are unbelievers who completely lack any repentance.

No one deserves grace, however, once one already has recieved the grace of salvation there is no more deserving of that punishment which is death and not hell.

You are mistaken that penalty of sin is hell, however, the penalty of sin is spiritual death(Rom 6:23), the penalty of sin is not ''to suffer an eternal punishment''.

The only reason That the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without Eternal Life.

If one has Eternal Life after one dies physicaly, he comes into the presence of God, then to die physicaly without Eternal Life(spiritual death) is eternal punishment.

If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is nashing of teeth.

If I have Eternal life already and Christ has my sins covered, They are not put on my account, I remain inocent and no deserving of death anymore.

However, I am certain that is not the case. You are still a sinner and at best only counted as righteous because of Christ.

We are not sinners. Sinners are the ones who still practices sin.

LOL! We are not sinners????!!! The Apostle Paul, who put us all to shame called himself the chief of sinners and you have the audacity to claim you are not? Wow. I am honored to be in your presence! No wonder you say you deserve Heaven!

Humbly yours,

sw

[Diolectic]

LOL! We are not sinners????!!! The Apostle Paul, who put us all to shame called himself the chief of sinners and you have the audacity to claim you are not? Wow. I am honored to be in your presence! No wonder you say you deserve Heaven!

The audacity is from studying the term.

If Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and Paul was still a sinner, that would mean that he still needed saving after wards.

1Timothy 1:15 Trustworthy is the word and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom I am.

Meaning that he is a saved sinner, therefore, no longer a sinner.

As you notice two verses before, Who wasbefore a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: 1Timothy 1:13

Admitting that he was a sinner.

All other verses in the whole New Testement with the word "sinner" Strongs Greek #268 is not the Christian or saved, Only that one time in 1Timothy 1:13 is Paul calling himself a sinner, So, whydid paul say this?

Out of humility and regret, not of actuality.

Romans 3:7 For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?

Paul is calling himself not a sinner here.

Romans 5:8 But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.

contrasting us when we were still sinners then to now.

Gal 2:17 But if seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Let it not be!

Not a sinner here.

1Tim 1:9a Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,

Hmmm, few verses before he called himself a sinner.

1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Sinner compared with the ungodly.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Diolectic

[RedeemedByHim]

LOL! We are not sinners????!!! The Apostle Paul, who put us all to shame called himself the chief of sinners and you have the audacity to claim you are not? Wow. I am honored to be in your presence! No wonder you say you deserve Heaven!

The audacity is from studying the term.

If Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and Paul was still a sinner, that would mean that he still needed saving after wards.

1Timothy 1:15 Trustworthy is the word and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom I am.

Meaning that he is a saved sinner, therefore, no longer a sinner.

As you notice two verses before, Who wasbefore a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: 1Timothy 1:13

Admitting that he was a sinner.

All other verses in the whole New Testement with the word "sinner" Strongs Greek #268 is not the Christian or saved, Only that one time in 1Timothy 1:13 is Paul calling himself a sinner, Why?

Out of humility and regret, not actual.

Romans 3:7 For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?

Paul is calling himself not a sinner here.

Romans 5:8 But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.

comparing us when we were still sinners then to now.

Gal 2:17 But if seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Let it not be!

Not a sinner here.

1Tim 1:9a Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,

Hmmm, few verses before he called himself a sinner.

1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Sinner compared with the ungodly.

I have never thought of it that way before...but it makes sense...but I still have to study this more if you don't mind...very thought provoking...

[st. Worm]

LOL! We are not sinners????!!! The Apostle Paul, who put us all to shame called himself the chief of sinners and you have the audacity to claim you are not? Wow. I am honored to be in your presence! No wonder you say you deserve Heaven!

The audacity is from studying the term.

If Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and Paul was still a sinner, that would mean that he still needed saving after wards.

1Timothy 1:15 Trustworthy is the word and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom I am.

Meaning that he is a saved sinner, therefore, no longer a sinner.

As you notice two verses before, Who wasbefore a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: 1Timothy 1:13

Admitting that he was a sinner.

All other verses in the whole New Testement with the word "sinner" Strongs Greek #268 is not the Christian or saved, Only that one time in 1Timothy 1:13 is Paul calling himself a sinner, Why?

Out of humility and regret, not actual.

Romans 3:7 For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?

Paul is calling himself not a sinner here.

Romans 5:8 But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.

comparing us when we were still sinners then to now.

Gal 2:17 But if seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Let it not be!

Not a sinner here.

1Tim 1:9a Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,

Hmmm, few verses before he called himself a sinner.

1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Sinner compared with the ungodly.

As I told you before diolectic, you do not understand the gospel and justification. We are legally counted as righteous even though still sinners. The only way you are not a sinner is if you do not sin and if you say you do not sin then you are calling God a liar. That much is very clear. Paul knew himself to be a sinner and confessed as much when he called himself the chief of sinners and also in his description of himself in Romans 7. For you to say Paul is not calling himself a sinner because is not judged a sinner any longer is Scripture twisting and very dishonest.

Why do you persist is saying you are not a sinner? Pride is very sinful you know. The gospel does not mean you are not a sinner any longer. What it does mean is that your sins are no longer counted against you for the sake of Jesus.

None of the verses you offered indicate we are not still sinners. They do not in any sense define unbelievers as sinners and believers as non-sinners in the way you say they do. Both believers and non-believers are still sinners, just as the Bible says, until we either die or Christ returns. That is what the Bible really teaches about us.

So tell us, have you sinned today?

sw

[Diolectic]

As I told you before diolectic, you do not understand the gospel and justification.

I do.

We are legally counted as righteous even though still sinners.

We are legally counted, therfore actualy righteous.

The only way you are not a sinner is if you do not sin and if you say you do not sin then you are calling God a liar.

No, the only way you are not a sinner is if you do not practise sin. That much is very clear. That is what this verse means:

1John 3:6 1Jn 3:6 Every one abiding in Him is not sinning. Everyone sinning has not seen Him, nor known Him.

The word "sinning" is present contiual active. That is not real Christians

Paul knew himself to be a sinner and confessed as much when he called himself the chief of sinners and also in his description of himself in Romans 7.

Romans 7 is his presalvation confesion. It is not twisting Scripture and very honest.

Why do you persist is saying you are not a sinner?

Because the term relates to the unsaved and those who practise sin.

Pride is very sinful you know.

I'm not proud nor am I saying that I never stumble with sin, I am only stating the fact of the term.

None of the verses you offered indicate we are not still sinners. They do not in any sense define unbelievers as sinners and believers as non-sinners in the way you say they do. Both believers and non-believers are still sinners, just as the Bible says, until we either die or Christ returns.

Do you know how to read?

So tell us, have you sinned today?

Not in deed, but maybe in though, but that I am not sure of.

Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Diolectic

[methinkshe]

Just a minute, guys - you're confusing me!

Is it not true that when we believe on the Lord Jesus for salvation we are "born again" and that we become "a new creation" and that not only are we cleansed of our iniquities, we are also imputed Jesus' righteousness so that we can stand before God not only cleansed of sin - i.e. neutral, but positively righteous (with the imputed righteousness of Christ?) And is not our "new creation in Christ" incorruptible? If we continue to sin, is that not in the flesh, which we should count as dead anyway? In our new creation in Christ we can only do the works of the Spirit because it is Christ-in-me who is working. That the flesh-life hangs around until we die is a hindrance to fellowship with Jesus, not a salvific issue.

I don't know whether this is Calvinism or Arminianism or any other "ism" but I know that it is what Paul is preaching in the first 8 chapters of Romans.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[st. Worm]

Di. the following statement by you completely hangs you out to dry and I need say no more:

"Romans 7 is his presalvation confesion. It is not twisting Scripture and very honest."

Now the truth:

In Romans 7 verses 21 Paul states:

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God

[Diolectic]

Now the truth:

In Romans 7 verses 21 Paul states:

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God

[st. Worm]

Now the truth:

In Romans 7 verses 21 Paul states:

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God

[Diolectic]

Di, you refuse to respond to any of my points.

Sorry, I thought I was responding to your points. Please restate them.

The new man or inner being that Paul references where he says he delights in God's law is more than sufficient evidence that you are completely wrong.

It's not the"new man". All people have inner men, the inner man is the soul.

Unbelievers don't delight in God's law.

Paul was a Pharisee, he loved God's law while he was unsaved.

You ignore any points that prove you wrong and then pull out verses that are not relevent and try to apply them without even addressing the text that is being discussed.

What are the points that I am missing, what is the text that is being discussed?

Here is one:

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psalm 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

or is that not relevent eather, as you say?

There are a total of 46 uses of the term "sinners" and 21 uses of the term "sinner". You use only one that is used for the reason of humility and regret.

The other 66 uses of the word "sinners" & "sinner" is what I am talking about.

As far as saying you have not sinned in deed today, then are you telling us you have loved God and neighbor perfectly today?

Yes. I did not hate my neighbor. There was not chance to love(verb) my neighbor.

I do love God. I prove my love to Him by walking after the Spirit to fulfill the righteousness of the law(Rom 8:4) In return, I do not walk after the flesh, so as not to fulfil the lust of it.(Gal 5:16)

...you claimed (more or less) that you had committed no sins today indicating you are not a sinner.

Notice the vers That I quoted along with my answer?

Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

I may have sinned today, but I don't recall willingly rebeling against God today. I have no motive to sin. I may stumble, goof up, mess up, what ever. However, I am not premedtating sin at all.

Sinners liv in sin. They willingly rebeling against God and premedtate sin along with every motive of there heart that is against God.

If this is you, since you call yourself a sinner, Repent and stop living in sin.

No Christian goes around habitualy sinning or practising nin all day, or even premedtates to sin, If you do, Stop it and repent you filthy sinner!!!!

I do admit that I do stumble, have you not read that i admit to sinning?

the Christian willingly acknowledges what a terrible sinner he really is.

I acknowledge what a terrible sinner that I really was. However, Now I don't practise sin or habitualy sin. All I do is stumble with sin. Edited June 13, 2007 by Diolectic