Calvin vs. Arminius

[eric]

Diolectic,

Sorry to come into this forum a bit late but I somehow missed it. However I will just quote one of your remarks, if I may,

I may have sinned today, but I don't recall willingly rebeling against God today. I have no motive to sin. I may stumble, goof up, mess up, what ever. However, I am not premedtating sin at all.

Stumbling cannot be used as an excuse for not siining and has to be repented of and forgiven asked. You don't have to premeditate sin to be guilty of sin, but if you do not confess your blunder and repent of it and seek forgiveness, you will held accountable for it when you stand before the Lord on judgement day.

Jesus said in Luke.13, if you dont repent, you will perish. Taking up the cross is not easy, but oh! the joy of the rewards. You are a sinner, mate, albeit a forgiven one.

[Diolectic]

Diolectic,

Sorry to come into this forum a bit late but I somehow missed it. However I will just quote one of your remarks, if I may,

I may have sinned today, but I don't recall willingly rebeling against God today. I have no motive to sin. I may stumble, goof up, mess up, what ever. However, I am not premedtating sin at all.

Stumbling cannot be used as an excuse for not siining and has to be repented of and forgiven asked. You don't have to premeditate sin to be guilty of sin, but if you do not confess your blunder and repent of it and seek forgiveness,

Jesus said in Luke.13, if you dont repent, you will perish. Taking up the cross is not easy, but oh! the joy of the rewards. You are a sinner, mate, albeit a forgiven one.

I agree, however, The point I am making is that Cristians are not "sinners"

Just because a christian sins, does not make him a sinner.

A sinner is one who practises sin. One who sins with out remorse. One who does not hate sin. One who noes not have Eternal life.

you will held accountable for it when you stand before the Lord on judgement day.

No christian will be accountable for their sin/sins when he/she stands before the Lord on judgement day.

Romans 4:8 blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge/account/impute sin."

[eric]

diolectc,

No christian will be accountable for their sin/sins when he/she stands before the Lord on judgement day.

Romans 4:8 blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge/account/impute sin."

So if someone goes forward and recites some sort of sinners prayer, he is home and hosed and glory bound. Is that what you are saying? That you are no longer a sinner, because you have followed the steps to salvation?

I wish!

[firehill]

diolectc,

No christian will be accountable for their sin/sins when he/she stands before the Lord on judgement day.

Romans 4:8 blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge/account/impute sin."

So if someone goes forward and recites some sort of sinners prayer, he is home and hosed and glory bound. Is that what you are saying? That you are no longer a sinner, because you have followed the steps to salvation?

I wish!

Apparent in your question is a Focus on one's EVIL motivation rather than a whole hearted reception of the LORD'S WORK and one's faith in it.

[st. Worm]

Di, you refuse to respond to any of my points.

Sorry, I thought I was responding to your points. Please restate them.

The new man or inner being that Paul references where he says he delights in God's law is more than sufficient evidence that you are completely wrong.

It's not the"new man". All people have inner men, the inner man is the soul.

Unbelievers don't delight in God's law.

Paul was a Pharisee, he loved God's law while he was unsaved.

You ignore any points that prove you wrong and then pull out verses that are not relevent and try to apply them without even addressing the text that is being discussed.

What are the points that I am missing, what is the text that is being discussed?

Here is one:

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psalm 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

or is that not relevent eather, as you say?

There are a total of 46 uses of the term "sinners" and 21 uses of the term "sinner". You use only one that is used for the reason of humility and regret.

The other 66 uses of the word "sinners" & "sinner" is what I am talking about.

As far as saying you have not sinned in deed today, then are you telling us you have loved God and neighbor perfectly today?

Yes. I did not hate my neighbor. There was not chance to love(verb) my neighbor.

I do love God. I prove my love to Him by walking after the Spirit to fulfill the righteousness of the law(Rom 8:4) In return, I do not walk after the flesh, so as not to fulfil the lust of it.(Gal 5:16)

...you claimed (more or less) that you had committed no sins today indicating you are not a sinner.

Notice the vers That I quoted along with my answer?

Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

I may have sinned today, but I don't recall willingly rebeling against God today. I have no motive to sin. I may stumble, goof up, mess up, what ever. However, I am not premedtating sin at all.

Sinners liv in sin. They willingly rebeling against God and premedtate sin along with every motive of there heart that is against God.

If this is you, since you call yourself a sinner, Repent and stop living in sin.

No Christian goes around habitualy sinning or practising nin all day, or even premedtates to sin, If you do, Stop it and repent you filthy sinner!!!!

I do admit that I do stumble, have you not read that i admit to sinning?

the Christian willingly acknowledges what a terrible sinner he really is.

I acknowledge what a terrible sinner that I really was. However, Now I don't practise sin or habitualy sin. All I do is stumble with sin.

That's great that you are not a sinner diolectic but I am afraid I must shake the dust off my feet now. You are the only non-sinner I know besides Jesus himself. But Jesus came for sinners so he did not come for you I guess. You also have no need for the cross any longer and the constant intercession our Savior promises on behalf of sinners like me. Like I said before, good luck with all that. A wise man once said that a true mark of faith is the increasing realization of just what a sinner one actually is and how undeserving he is of what Jesus did and continues to do for sinners. In all seriousness I fear you will need a lot more than good luck considering your delusions.

sw

[Diolectic]

diolectc,

No christian will be accountable for their sin/sins when he/she stands before the Lord on judgement day.

Romans 4:8 blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge/account/impute sin."

So if someone goes forward and recites some sort of sinners prayer, he is home and hosed and glory bound. Is that what you are saying? That you are no longer a sinner, because you have followed the steps to salvation?

I say that if you are truly saved, one shouldn't be called a sinner.

That's great that you are not a sinner diolectic but I am afraid I must shake the dust off my feet now. You are the only non-sinner I know besides Jesus himself. But Jesus came for sinners so he did not come for you I guess. You also have no need for the cross any longer and the constant intercession our Savior promises on behalf of sinners like me. Like I said before, good luck with all that.

You think that because a christian sins, he should be called a sinner. My whole poinbt is that term should only be for, well, sinners, the wiched, the non-saved.

A christian who sins does not make him a sinner, makes his weak or in the flesh and so forth.

You make your point out of one scripture, I make mine out of 66. Go figure.

A wise man once said that a true mark of faith is the increasing realization of just what a sinner one actually is and how undeserving he is of what Jesus did and continues to do for sinners. In all seriousness I fear you will need a lot more than good luck considering your delusions

I relize just what a sinner one actually is and I've been trying to show you.

Grace is undeserved, I know that, however Now that I have Grace, I do not desere the wrath that sinner have.

I have a Dr. of theology agreeing with all this. Pobably, because he understands what I am saying which aparently you don't.

I don't know why you get your shorts all in a bunch over a term which is used for the unsaved 66 times out of all the 67 times in the whole entire Bible.

I am on the scriptural side of the argument, you are on the emotional sentimental side, pleas face the facts of the biblical term of the use of the word sinner as I am trying to explain.

Edited June 14, 2007 by Diolectic

[Ovedya]

Keep it nice or I'll start pulling posts.

(I graduate from first grade)

[Guest lija]

MCM and calvinists:

it sounds like you are calling human kind a bunch of robots who have no free will. Love is a choice. If we are CONTROLLED TO RESPOND to God, then we are mere robots, forced to "love" God.

Doesnt GOd love all people? Didnt he say he wishes "none to perish"

Then if your thoery (calvinist ) were true, He should just save us all. Right???? But you say only a few elect will make it. That doesnt make sense to me

[Rhonda Lou]

I've believed God was sovereign before I heard the two sides. It also seemed to me that God, by virtue of choosing some, meant He wasn't choosing others. If there are three people in the room and He chooses me, and they aren't chosen, then, logically, this means they aren't chosen. But, I've truly been studying it in this last year, and have written a 13 page defense of it. Obviously, that is too long to put here. But, suffice it to say that every Christian I know believes that God created every one of us for a purpose, and has given each of us spiritual gifts to carry out that purpose. Every Christian I know believes that God has fulfilled every single prophecy concerning Jesus' first coming, and every single prophecy about nations coming and going. According to Acts 17:26, God has "made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings." This may be for nations, but Pslam 139:15 says, "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them". If God planned when I would live, where I would live, what I would do on earth, creating works for me that I should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10), and gifted me to carry out His purpose for me life, then it stands to reason, He'd also have the say so over whether or not I'd be a Christian.

As for eternal security, I can't see God placing His Spirit as a seal "deposit" guaranteeing my salvation, if I could lose it. And 1 Peter 1:4 says I have "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away reserved in heaven" for me. Again, this speaks to eternal security. These passages can not mean other than what they say. If the passages which speak of free will, or loss of salvation cannot be taken any other way, and these can't be taken any other way, then there are contradictions in the Bible. I can't see these being taken any other way. But, while we have a depraved nature before salvation (and are choiceless), after salvation we have an outer, sinful nature (flesh) and an inward new nature (Spirit). We are told to live by the Spirit, put on the new man, walk in the Spirit. After salvation we have a choice. Also, there is the idea that we are to believe in God, which I don't contradict. I just believe that those God calls and chooses will believe, and those He doesn't won't. I believe that, by His grace, from His perspective, it is "predestination"; yet from ours it is a free choice. I heard a story long ago about somebody opening the door to salvation. God was on the other side saying, "Right on time." I believe He steers circumstances which lead to our accepting Him. But we don't know who is called, or what God's time is, so we must be out there spreading His Word because faith cometh by hearing, and others need to hear.

Finally, Romans 8:29a, 30 says, "For whom He foreknew...He also predestinated..." Fore-knowing is knowing in advance; pre-destination is taking steps to affect destiny.

Rhonda Lou

[Guest lija]

I dont know how to use the quote button

THis is Rhonda's quote:

"If God planned when I would live, where I would live, what I would do on earth, creating works for me that I should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10), and gifted me to carry out His purpose for me life, then it stands to reason, He'd also have the say so over whether or not I'd be a Christian."

me:

I plan a lot of things for my children too (where theyshould live, what they will do on earth and how they should behave, but that doesnt taken their WILL away. THey can still CHOOSE to follow my ways or not. I love my children and want then to choose the right way and if they chose the wrong path, I will throw out a life preserver, (=Christ), but if they dont grab that life preserver, they will perish. That is how I see God and his salvation for his people.

Rhondalou

"Finally, Romans 8:29a, 30 says, "For whom He foreknew...He also predestinated..." Fore-knowing is knowing in advance; pre-destination is taking steps to affect destiny."

me:

Yes God knows all along who will be saved or who will make the right choice to cling to Jesus , his son. WE are the ones who dont know yet. Our names could be "blotted out of the book of life" if we choose. THere are an awfully lot of people who love Jesus and later deny him and stop believing in GOd and HATE Him. I dont think GOd can accept them into the kingdom. They are not living kigdom lives on earth and they will not be able to live kindom lives in heaven

Edited July 12, 2007 by lija