Calvin vs. Arminius

[Rhonda Lou]

I dont know how to use the quote button

THis is Rhonda's quote:

"If God planned when I would live, where I would live, what I would do on earth, creating works for me that I should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10), and gifted me to carry out His purpose for me life, then it stands to reason, He'd also have the say so over whether or not I'd be a Christian."

me:

I plan a lot of things for my children too (where theyshould live, what they will do on earth and how they should behave, but that doesnt taken their WILL away. THey can still CHOOSE to follow my ways or not. I love my children and want then to choose the right way and if they chose the wrong path, I will throw out a life preserver, (=Christ), but if they dont grab that life preserver, they will perish. That is how I see God and his salvation for his people.

Rhondalou

"Finally, Romans 8:29a, 30 says, "For whom He foreknew...He also predestinated..." Fore-knowing is knowing in advance; pre-destination is taking steps to affect destiny."

me:

Yes God knows all along who will be saved or who will make the right choice to cling to Jesus , his son. WE are the ones who dont know yet. Our names could be "blotted out of the book of life" if we choose. THere are an awfully lot of people who love Jesus and later deny him and stop believing in GOd and HATE Him. I dont think GOd can accept them into the kingdom. They are not living kigdom lives on earth and they will not be able to live kindom lives in heaven

Lija,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. I understand that there are many Christians who believe as you do. I believe God is sovereign over avery aspect on the earth He created. I look at pre-destination as just one aspect of that sovereignty. I believe that there is a purpose for every single thing that happens. I don't say that lightly. I've gone through trials myself, which were difficult for me -- and I know that everybody else has also. We've all been through the "How can God let this happen" routine. In fact, it is while going through one of those trials in this last year that I came to realize that God was in control. I find it more comforting to know that there is a reason, whether I know it or not, than to think that God is in heaven, powerless to do anything about my situation until He sees what I'm going to do about my situation. I believe that God loves beyond measure. I also believe that God is just, holy, perfect -- and that He hates sin. I believe that if God has the say so over everything that happens -- just as He decided who would reign when and where, and He puts me here now for a purpose that He wants me to do, that He also governs whether or not I'll be a Christian. I believe that our wanting "self" determination is part of our depraved, old nature. Evidence supports that God is in control, yet we don't like the aspect of somebody else being in control of our "destiny", so we fight the urge to submit in this most crucial question. Yet, I believe God directs and works circumstances so that we accept Him if it is His will, and believe.

I have a hard time explaining "perspective", but I see that you also believe that God knows who will accept, and we don't. Maybe that's a good starting place. When we are in a plane above clouds, we can see a clear sky, and act accordingly. When we are on the ground, there are clouds above. God sees everything clearly, and acts according to His perceptions. We don't see everything -- including His actions -- so to us it is cloudy. Both are true; it's a matter of perspective. God sees clearly and acts accordingly with His will in our lives. To us, it is a cloudy day, and we act according to our perspective. We don't see all of His workings in our lives, but we do re-act in response to them, and make the choice He had planned from the start. I'm not sure that makes sense, but that's the best I can do based on Scriptures.

As for being saved, or losing salvation, as I stated, the Bible clearly says that God seals us with His Holy Spirit, and that He has an inheritance reserved in heaven which is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away. You can't get around "does not fade away." I also understand that there are Scriptures which seem to indicate otherwise. Both can't be true; neither can be ignored (meaning I can't say, "I do believe this, but I don't believe that.") I must believe them all. So, how do they make sense?

I see two options, based on experience, and on Scriptures. I don't know the exact verse, but there is one in John's epistles which speaks of Dymineous (sp) who by leaving the Church, proved he was never part of it. There are many, many people who attend church regularly, who are not actually saved. They know the truth intellectually, but not as heart knowledge -- they don't truly know and love God, they simply know about Him. Again -- not my call, this is between them and God -- but they prove they are not Christians by leaving never to return. There are also those who are Christians but experience a season of sin, like David and Bathsheba. It was a year before David confessed his sin, and Nathan had to point blank tell him, "David, you are that man" (you are the one who sinned). Then, David repented and was restored to fellowship, though consequences of the sin followed him. But, even after the sin, God brought him back. My grandfather got angry with God when he was a child because one of God's ministers said an ungodly thing which resulted in years and years of anger toward God. But, in the final month of his life, he was in the nursing home with another of God's ministers, and he came to repentance shortly before his death. Those who are truly saved are sealed by God and will die as believers. Those who are not truly saved never lost their salvation; they never had it to begin with.

Before I go, I want to be perfectly clear that we do not decide who is truly saved and who is not. We are simply called as witnesses: we witness to what God has done in our lives. That plants seeds which God either waters or doesn't. We are never called to see who is truly saved, who is in a season of sin, and who was never chosen. God just tells us to go and make disciples (according to Matthew) and go and bring people to repentance, for the remission of their sins (according to Luke 24). Yet according to Acts 13:47-48 and 2 Timothy 2:25, the repentance we "bring" them to is actually a gift of God. I don't try to figure out where anybody stands in the grant scheme of things, I just love God and share, leaving the results to God and the other person.

Rhonda Lou

[Guest lija]

Rhonda Lou

Thank for your quick response. I still dont knoe how to use this quote button.

Anyway,it is nice discussing this with you. I think we need to look at this problem not as either/ or, but as BOTH are right. God IS in control of every situation AND Man can cooperate with GOd if he WILLS to work with God.

Edited July 12, 2007 by lija

[Rhonda Lou]

Rhonda Lou

Thank for your quick response. I still dont knoe how to use this quote button.

Anyway,it is nice discussing this with you. I think we need to look at this problem not as either/ or, but as BOTH are right. God IS in control of every situation AND Man can cooperate with GOd if he WILLS to work with God.

God seals us with His Holy Spirit, and that He has an inheritance reserved in heaven which is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away

[Rhonda Lou]

Rhonda Lou

Thank for your quick response. I still dont knoe how to use this quote button.

Anyway,it is nice discussing this with you. I think we need to look at this problem not as either/ or, but as BOTH are right. God IS in control of every situation AND Man can cooperate with GOd if he WILLS to work with God.

God seals us with His Holy Spirit, and that He has an inheritance reserved in heaven which is incorruptible, undefiled, and does not fade away

Yes God seals us with his holy spirit, but we can also send this holy spirit away by greiving it.

It will never fade away as long as we cooperate with it.

[Guest lija]

If it is God's choice to predestine us to serve Him, then why would you even think that Adam and Eve were disobediant. ? And if it is God's choice to choose us, then there would be no point to punish people for sin. It would not be their fault that they continue to sin. It would be God's fault so there would be no justification to send people to Hell.

As for after we are saved, yes we agree, God gives us the power to deny self

That post was very long. I read it though. I like simple, though

[Rhonda Lou]

If it is God's choice to predestine us to serve Him, then why would you even think that Adam and Eve were disobediant. ? And if it is God's choice to choose us, then there would be no point to punish people for sin. It would not be their fault that they continue to sin. It would be God's fault so there would be no justification to send people to Hell.

As for after we are saved, yes we agree, God gives us the power to deny self

That post was very long. I read it though. I like simple, though

Lija, people often say that the "doctrine" of predestination is a "Paul" thing, not spoken of by others in the Bibile, though I quoted Peter, John and Luke above also. However there is a direct response to your questions by Paul in Romans 9.

For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose (Exodus 33:19) So receiving God's promise is not up to us. We can't get it by choosing it or working hard for it. God will show mercy to anyone He chooses. For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying My power in you, and so that My fame might spread throughout the earth.' (cited from Exodus 6:19). So you see God allows mercy to some just because He wants to and He chooses to make some people refuse to listen. (See Exodus 4:21).

"Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what He made them do?"

"No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who made it, 'Why have you made me like this? When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't He have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for destruction and another to throw garbage into? God has every right to exercise His judgment and His power, but He also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of His judgment and are fit only for destruction. He also has the right to pour out the riches of His glory upon those He prepared to be the objects of His mercy -- even upon us, whom He selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles." (Romans 9:15-24)

Beyond that, I can not add anything.

Yours In Christ.

Rhonda Lou

[Guest lija]

Rhonda Lou

I still think we are BOTH right

I find scripture saying one thing in one place and just the opposite in other cases OFTEN.

Dont you.?you always have to know the context of waht they are talking about, the history, ect..in order to apply these concepts in our lives

For example in the romans 9 that you were citing

Paul states that God chooses to bless some and not others before they are born then later in the same area, he is talking about gentiles and how GOd is giving then an OPPORTUNITY to be saved by faith. If you give someone an opportunity, you are giving them a choice...not appointing them to be saved.

In sum , maybe we can say that God creates people in a certain way to do the wrong things for His purpose and and in OTHER circumstances he allows people to make a choice. I dont know, but what I do know is this:

Christ died for my sins and the sins of the World and he rose again and if you confess with your mouth and believe this , you are saved.

We definately agree there, Thank God

I dont know why God made other parts of scripture so either/ or. I think it is so that we go to HIM for wisdom in each situation

LIJA

.

Edited July 16, 2007 by lija

[Rhonda Lou]

Rhonda Lou

I still think we are BOTH right

I find scripture saying one thing in one place and just the opposite in other cases OFTEN.

Dont you.?you always have to know the context of waht they are talking about, the history, ect..in order to apply these concepts in our lives

For example in the romans 9 that you were citing

Paul states that God chooses to bless some and not others before they are born then later in the same area, he is talking about gentiles and how GOd is giving then an OPPORTUNITY to be saved by faith. If you give someone an opportunity, you are giving them a choice...not appointing them to be saved.

In sum , maybe we can say that God creates people in a certain way to do the wrong things for His purpose and and in OTHER circumstances he allows people to make a choice. I dont know, but what I do know is this:

Christ died for my sins and the sins of the World and he rose again and if you confess with your mouth and believe this , you are saved.

We definately agree there, Thank God

I dont know why God made other parts of scripture so either/ or. I think it is so that we go to HIM for wisdom in each situation

LIJA

You are correct in that I believe there is a balance. I believe the from God's point of view it is predestination, and from our point of view, it is free will. Both are taught. I just believe that predestination trumps free will. From our perspective it is free will, but my will is weak, so I take comfort in the realization that God trumps my will. God's safety net of predestination ensures that we'll close the deal, because He sends His Spirit to our spiritually dead bodies to bring enough life to them that we CAN confess with our lips and believe in our hearts that He is risen from the dead. But then His perspective of predestination meets our perspective of free will, and we have to close the deal by our belief. So, we open the door to heaven, and He says, "Right on time."

I agree with you wholeheartedly that there always seems to be a balance in the Bible, and I'm sorry if I lost sight of the balance. My view has always been predestination from His perspective, free will from ours, but He trumps ours, working to make everything we do possible.

Thank you for sharing all of your thoughts with me.

Rhonda Lou

.

[Guest lija]

thanks for all the input

[OLD SCHOOL]

My position: I'm taking the 3-point spread on Calvin.

Ok, that was a bad joke. First of all, the best way to remember the 5 points is to think of the word TULIP.

T = TOTAL DEPRAVITY

U = UNCONDITIONAL PREDESTINATION

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT

I = IRRESISTABLE GRACE

P = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

====================================

All that said, I believe:

T - Total Depravity. Just read John 3 to see how depraved man really is. It paints a pretty bleak picture even referring to the old man in us once we're saved.

U - Unconditional Predistination - I believe I predistination but not unconditionally. My understanding is extreme Calvinists say people in hell never had a chance for salvation since God always knew who would go to heaven. I believe people had the free will to receive or reject Christ. They unfortunately chose the latter.

L - Limited Atonement - For God so loved the world he gave his only begotton son and whosoever believeth in him shall not parish but have eternal life. God loved all of the world, not some of it.

I - Irresistable Grace - Bible says for by Grace are we saved. End of point.

P - Perseverance of the Saints - that means eternal security. Ephesians 1;12 says you are sealed with the promise of the holy spirit as soon as you believe on him and God says once I have him no man can taketh him from my hand. Nuff said.

AMEN.

Edited July 29, 2007 by OLD SCHOOL