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Calvin vs. Arminius


Ovedya

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?  

353 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      72
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70


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I know what mormans teach and I know what calivinist teach and you are both equally wrong,yet mormans are considered a cult and calvinist are considered a part of the church,I never could figure that out.

I believe the calvinist teaching to be much worse.

Onwings I don't believe you even read what I write. Else you would have noted that I AGAIN pointed out that you Do Not Know what Calvinism really teaches, but only what you want to believe.

I dont think you have read what I wrote smiles,Else once AGAIN I have pointed out that I DO KNOW what calvinist teach.

How can you possibly say that? Earlier when you expounded on Calvinism based on your ideas of what it is, I showed you how that was NOT what Calvinism teaches. Yet, again, you blindly shut your eyes to the truth and insist that your statements regarding it are true - BUT they are not.

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I know what mormans teach and I know what calivinist teach and you are both equally wrong,yet mormans are considered a cult and calvinist are considered a part of the church,I never could figure that out.

I believe the calvinist teaching to be much worse.

Onwings I don't believe you even read what I write. Else you would have noted that I AGAIN pointed out that you Do Not Know what Calvinism really teaches, but only what you want to believe.

I dont think you have read what I wrote smiles,Else once AGAIN I have pointed out that I DO KNOW what calvinist teach.

How can you possibly say that? Earlier when you expounded on Calvinism based on your ideas of what it is, I showed you how that was NOT what Calvinism teaches. Yet, again, you blindly shut your eyes to the truth and insist that your statements regarding it are true - BUT they are not.

The fact is they teach exactly what I said they teach,regardless of your claims.

Saying it don't make it so. John Calvin's teachings go way beyond "TULIP."

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After reading most of the post on this topic, I can see why God gave us the bible and not a short statement.

I am humbled by God's wisdom.

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While I really like Calvin, Hobbes is my favorite.... :thumbsup:

A few of Calvin's "snowman" strips...

http://biessman.com/calvinAndHobbes.gif

And "Tracer Bullet"...(My fravorite line: "The dame was hysterical. Dames usually are.")

http://homepage.mac.com/tigershark/tracerbullet/tracer1.jpg

http://www.benzilla.com/upload_images/7_6588.jpg

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I know what mormans teach and I know what calivinist teach and you are both equally wrong,yet mormans are considered a cult and calvinist are considered a part of the church,I never could figure that out.

I believe the calvinist teaching to be much worse.

Onwings I don't believe you even read what I write. Else you would have noted that I AGAIN pointed out that you Do Not Know what Calvinism really teaches, but only what you want to believe.

I dont think you have read what I wrote smiles,Else once AGAIN I have pointed out that I DO KNOW what calvinist teach.

How can you possibly say that? Earlier when you expounded on Calvinism based on your ideas of what it is, I showed you how that was NOT what Calvinism teaches. Yet, again, you blindly shut your eyes to the truth and insist that your statements regarding it are true - BUT they are not.

The fact is they teach exactly what I said they teach,regardless of your claims.

Prove it.

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I know what mormans teach and I know what calivinist teach and you are both equally wrong,yet mormans are considered a cult and calvinist are considered a part of the church,I never could figure that out.

I believe the calvinist teaching to be much worse.

Onwings I don't believe you even read what I write. Else you would have noted that I AGAIN pointed out that you Do Not Know what Calvinism really teaches, but only what you want to believe.

I dont think you have read what I wrote smiles,Else once AGAIN I have pointed out that I DO KNOW what calvinist teach.

How can you possibly say that? Earlier when you expounded on Calvinism based on your ideas of what it is, I showed you how that was NOT what Calvinism teaches. Yet, again, you blindly shut your eyes to the truth and insist that your statements regarding it are true - BUT they are not.

The fact is they teach exactly what I said they teach,regardless of your claims.

Prove it.

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Is it your claim that this is not what calvinist teach,smiles?

Well this proves that you know how to cut-and-paste from other sources on the internet: http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

We have a policy against plagiarism here. Cite your sources or your posts get removed. :emot-highfive:

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I know what mormans teach and I know what calivinist teach and you are both equally wrong,yet mormans are considered a cult and calvinist are considered a part of the church,I never could figure that out.

I believe the calvinist teaching to be much worse.

Onwings I don't believe you even read what I write. Else you would have noted that I AGAIN pointed out that you Do Not Know what Calvinism really teaches, but only what you want to believe.

I dont think you have read what I wrote smiles,Else once AGAIN I have pointed out that I DO KNOW what calvinist teach.

How can you possibly say that? Earlier when you expounded on Calvinism based on your ideas of what it is, I showed you how that was NOT what Calvinism teaches. Yet, again, you blindly shut your eyes to the truth and insist that your statements regarding it are true - BUT they are not.

The fact is they teach exactly what I said they teach,regardless of your claims.

Prove it.

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Is it your claim that this is not what calvinist teach,smiles?

Well this proves that you know how to cut-and-paste from other sources on the internet: http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

We have a policy against plagiarism here. Cite your sources or your posts get removed. :laugh:

My source was you,ovedya,page one of this thread. :th_praying:

Oh....Did I reference the same page? :laugh:

It was so long ago, I forgot. :b:

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double post erased :emot-highfive:,The point I was making to smiles when I posted the tulip from page 1 is that I know exactly what is being taught by the calvinist and his/her persistance that it is not the teaching does little to change the truth of the matter.

While yes the 5 Points you posted are what they are, its still different then what you accuse Calvinism to be.

You said: "You call him a liar because the bible clearly teaches God is no respecter of men,but you teach he chooses some and not others therefore you he he IS a respecter of men therefore calling him a lair."

The term "Respecter of men" biblically isn't what your making it out to be. Just because GOD elects to save men who hate him, will break his law, and love to sin does not make GOD a respecter of men. It makes him a merciful sovereign God.

You said: "You say he forces himself on some against there will, therefore calling him a rapist."

How is GOD a rapist for working and quickening man's heart in his natural state so that he might be saved? This isn't rape, its grace. There is a huge difference. And secondly if GOD didn't draw men to himself NO man would come to Him. That is why its so important to understand the depravity of man before you can go on.

You said: "You say he sends some to hell with no chance for salvation,even if they wanted to accept Christ as their Saviour they couldn't,therefore calling him a murderer."

This is a huge error amongst those who try to argue against Calvinism. Firstly if your not the elect you won't even want to come to Him in the first place. If someone wanted to come to Christ and be saved it wouldn't be something in them but rather GOD drawing them. Its not like your friends or family couldn't be saved because there not on some "E" list but rather its there desire for Christ in which is a manifestation of there possible election.

Secondly GOD still convicts the lost of there sins and wickedness:

Acts 7:51

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Very diplomatic AnotherTraveler ,yet to the point and nicely said.You are a better man than I.

Thank you for the compliment, but anyone that reads here knows that I have my undiplomatic moments as well. We indeed serve a merciful God! :laugh:

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  • 1 month later...
Guest David Richardson
Well, I think you know where I stand. :whistling: Anything that declares that God is not 100% Sovereign and can fail at His plan is offensive and heresy in my book. I realize that others feel differently.

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

My son has a girl that likes him and takes him to her youth group every week. (They are 13). Today, he made the comment to me that the family was very nice, "even if the mom is wrong about Bible things". I asked him what he meant and he said "Well, she says that all children/babies automatically go to Heaven because they know no sin". I said - "Did you say anything?" He said - "No, I wanted to tell her she should read her Bible and get the truth about it, but I didn't want to be rude". LOL! It warms my heart to know he is paying attention. (and wouldn't be rude too, lol)

This was an excellent overview of the differing points, GMan. Thanks.

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