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Calvin vs. Arminius


Ovedya

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?  

353 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      72
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70


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Guest David Richardson
Well, I think you know where I stand. ;) Anything that declares that God is not 100% Sovereign and can fail at His plan is offensive and heresy in my book. I realize that others feel differently.

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

My son has a girl that likes him and takes him to her youth group every week. (They are 13). Today, he made the comment to me that the family was very nice, "even if the mom is wrong about Bible things". I asked him what he meant and he said "Well, she says that all children/babies automatically go to Heaven because they know no sin". I said - "Did you say anything?" He said - "No, I wanted to tell her she should read her Bible and get the truth about it, but I didn't want to be rude". LOL! It warms my heart to know he is paying attention. (and wouldn't be rude too, lol)

This was an excellent overview of the differing points, GMan. Thanks.

I don't think any of us would disagree with you when you say that God is 100% Sovereign. He is also a Graceful God, otherwise I would not be Saved! As he is 100% Sovereign and 100% Graceful then how do we reach a point whereby we say that he has chosen some to Salvation and others to Hell? If you don't mind I want to show what it says in Jn 3 v 16-18. Verse 18 states:- (I will take it you already know what 16 & 17 say)He that Believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condembed already! (WHY)? Because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can you inform me how he can believe in the name of the only bogotten Son of God when he has already been put on the Hell list? It is impossible for him to believe. So why is he being condemned for it? Do you think God would do that? I think not!

There are other numerous passages for an argument (I don't want one) against Calvanism, let alone the man himself, who was a Murderer, Self opinionated, control freak, who regularly got people excommunicated (what scripture I do not know) as well as believing that the church courts (which he set up) held the authority of the keys of heaven (sounds a bit catholic, from hwence he came, to me).

I don't mean to be-little anybody who believes his teachings but I would rather they stuck to scripture for their guidance.

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Well, I think you know where I stand. :20: Anything that declares that God is not 100% Sovereign and can fail at His plan is offensive and heresy in my book. I realize that others feel differently.

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

My son has a girl that likes him and takes him to her youth group every week. (They are 13). Today, he made the comment to me that the family was very nice, "even if the mom is wrong about Bible things". I asked him what he meant and he said "Well, she says that all children/babies automatically go to Heaven because they know no sin". I said - "Did you say anything?" He said - "No, I wanted to tell her she should read her Bible and get the truth about it, but I didn't want to be rude". LOL! It warms my heart to know he is paying attention. (and wouldn't be rude too, lol)

This was an excellent overview of the differing points, GMan. Thanks.

I don't think any of us would disagree with you when you say that God is 100% Sovereign. He is also a Graceful God, otherwise I would not be Saved! As he is 100% Sovereign and 100% Graceful then how do we reach a point whereby we say that he has chosen some to Salvation and others to Hell? If you don't mind I want to show what it says in Jn 3 v 16-18. Verse 18 states:- (I will take it you already know what 16 & 17 say)He that Believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condembed already! (WHY)? Because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can you inform me how he can believe in the name of the only bogotten Son of God when he has already been put on the Hell list? It is impossible for him to believe. So why is he being condemned for it? Do you think God would do that? I think not!

There are other numerous passages for an argument (I don't want one) against Calvanism, let alone the man himself, who was a Murderer, Self opinionated, control freak, who regularly got people excommunicated (what scripture I do not know) as well as believing that the church courts (which he set up) held the authority of the keys of heaven (sounds a bit catholic, from hwence he came, to me).

I don't mean to be-little anybody who believes his teachings but I would rather they stuck to scripture for their guidance.

Mr. Richardson,

This web-site may help you with some of your concerns

http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.html

In case the link does not work, I'm going to copy some of it. It was over 25 pages, but I think this portion speaks directly to your concerns:

In each of the 2 columns below, there are several verses. Which verses are true, the ones on the left, or the ones on the right? Since the Bible is true ("inerrant,") we must interpret both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses. How can we harmonize both sets of verses so they're both true at the same time? Look for any verses that clearly state sinners can/can't or are able/unable to come to Christ...

Human Responsibility to Come to Christ

1. "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)

2. "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Mt. 11:28)

3. "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God." (Jn. 7:17)

4. "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink." (Jn. 7:37)

5. "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38)

6. "Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19)

7. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)

8. "but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30)

9. "Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) Human Inability to Come to Christ

1. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

2. "How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Mt. 12:34)

3. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit." (Mt. 7:18)

4. "'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said to them, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Mt. 19:25-26)

5. "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3)

6. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44)

7. "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (Jn. 6:65)

8. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word." (Jn. 8:43)

9. "They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." (Jn. 12:39-40)

10. "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6)

11. "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Rom. 8:7)

12. "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom. 8:8)

13. "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:14)

On the left, are 9 verses inviting or commanding sinners to repent, believe, and come to Christ. These verses make sinners responsible to come to Christ. Notice, the number of verses that clearly state sinners can or are able to come to Christ: 0

On the right, are 13 verses clearly stating sinners can't come to Christ. (In addition, the Bible contains 3 verses clearly showing Christians inability to do anything for Christ, without His power: Jn. 15:5; 1 Cor. 12:3; Heb. 11:6. If Christians are unable to do anything without God's ability, then how much more impotent are unregenerate sinners?)

Which verses are true? The verses on the left stating sinners must come to Christ, or the verses on the right stating sinners can't come to Christ? Since God's Word is inerrant, they're both true. Then, how can we harmonize both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses so they're both true at the same time?

3 Different Views of Our Responsibility vs. Inability to Believe

There are 3 popular views attempting to interpret the above verses: Arminianism, Hyper-Calvinism, and Calvinism. Of the 3, Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism are the 2 extremes. Calvinism is the middle view.

1. Human Ability vs. No Interpretation (Some Arminians)

Many Arminians interpret the verses on the left labeled "Human Responsibility" at the expense of the verses on the right labeled "Human Inability." Most have no interpretation for the 13 verses on the right explicitly stating sinners can't, or aren't able to come to Christ. They interpret the verses on the left commanding responsibility as though they implied ability. Here's their logical fallacy:

The Logical Fallacy of Some Arminians

First Premise: God commands sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we're unable to do.)

Conclusion: Therefore, sinners are able to repent, believe & come to Christ.

There is no proof for the 2nd premise. It's assuming what you're trying to prove. Plus, if we could find only one example in Scripture where God commands more than we are able, it would also refute the assumption.

6 Examples Where God Commanded the Impossible

Below, are 6 examples where God commands humans to do something which they do not have the ability to do. In the first 4 verses, God commanded physically dead corpses to live. But, they had no desire or ability to respond, until God first gave them new life, with new desire and ability. (Likewise, we'll see later that He commands spiritually dead men to live, then gives them new life-regeneration, desire, and ability.)

1. "Prophecy to these (dead) bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!'" (Ezek. 37:4 Notice, those dead bones had no ability to hear the word of the Lord. God had to give those skeletons life first, before they had the ability to hear the word of the Lord.)

2. "a dead man was being carried out...Then He came and touched the open coffin...and He said, 'Young man, I say to you, arise.'" (Lk. 7:14 The dead man couldn't hear, until Christ first gave His miraculous power to him.)

3. "Your daughter is dead...He...took her by the hand and called saying, 'Little girl, arise.' Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately." (Lk. 8:49-55 The dead girl had no power to arise until Christ gave it to her.)

4. "Lazarus, come forth!" (Jn. 11:43, Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.)

5. "Therefore you shall be perfect (complete), just as your father in heaven is perfect." (Mt. 5:48)

6. "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30)

Just as it took a supernatural miracle to raise the physically dead before they could respond, so it takes a supernatural miracle to raise (regenerate) the spiritually dead before they can respond.

2. No Interpretation vs. Human Inability (Some Hyper-Calvinists)

Many Hyper-Calvinists interpret the verses on the right labeled "Human Inability" at the expense of the verses on the left labeled "Human Responsibility." They don't command or invite all men to repent, believe, & come to Christ. They don't proclaim the gospel to all sinners. They preach the gospel selectively only to those they think are elect.

The Logical Fallacy of Some Hyper-Calvinists

First Premise: Sinners are unable to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we're unable to do.)

Conclusion: Therefore, don't ask sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Notice, Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism share the exact same assumed premise: "God would not command what is unable." Both Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism exalt human reason above Divine revelation. They resort to humanism-rationalism.

3. Human Responsibility vs. Human Inability (Calvinism)

Sinners are responsible to repent, believe, and come to Christ. Yet, at the same time, they're unable to repent, believe, and come to Christ. This is the only solution that can harmonize both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses as simultaneously true.

(If it seems unfair to you that God holds rebels responsible for what they're unable to do, then please remember no one deserves salvation. True justice would be hell for the whole human race, wouldn't it? So, if God decides to give to some the desire and ability to come to Christ, then that's undeserved grace!)

But, why then does God command and invite sinners to believe, if they're unable? Perhaps, He uses the commands/invitations to come to Christ, as the "means to the end."

In other words, perhaps He uses the command to repent, as the means to granting repentance. And, He uses the command to believe, as the means to giving the gift of faith. And, He uses the invitation to come to Christ, as the means to give the desire and ability to come.

The idea that God uses commands as a means to an end is also demonstrated in how He preserves us in salvation. For, He actually warns true Christians of eternal damnation in Jn. 15:2, 6; Rom. 11:20-22; 1 Cor. 9:25, 27; Rev. 22:19, etc. And at the same time, He promises us eternal security. How then can we reconcile these 2 "seemingly contradictory" truths? It's simple...

He uses the warnings of losing our salvation as the means to preserve us in His promised eternal salvation. His warnings of losing salvation are the means He uses to keep us persevering to the end

Here's a clear example where God used warning as the means to the end of fulfilling His promise.

Promises of Divine Security:

"there will be no loss of life among you..." (Acts 27:22)

"God has granted you all those...with you." (Acts 27:24)

"not a hair will fall from the head of any..." (Acts 27:34)

Warning of Human Responsibility:

"Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved." (Acts 27:31)

Now, how in the world could God possibly warn of those sailors losing their lives, since He just promised that they wouldn't lose their lives? It's simple...God used the warning of death to keep them in the ship, to preserve them from death.

Likewise, He uses the command to repent, as the means to grant repentance. And, He uses the command to believe, as a means to give the gift of faith. And, He uses the invitations to come to Christ, as the means to draw sinners to Christ. To understand how God gave you salvation, keep reading below...

But, What About Free Will?

The phrase "free will" is found in the Bible 16 times. All 16 times it means "voluntary." Fifteen of those times it's used of a freewill (voluntary) offering. Not one of those 16 times does "free will" refer to salvation. Also, the idea that man has a "free will" independent from God's rule, probably had its origin in heathen, Greek philosophy.

"Free will" is the topic everyone assumes, but few define. If "free will" is defined as the "ability and desire to will to receive Christ", then that contradicts the 13 verses in the right column above. But, if "free will" is defined as "voluntary will to make choices," then humans have "free will."

We have free will in the sense we freely (voluntarily) will whatever we have both the desire and ability to do. God influences us by circumstances, thoughts, and power so we become voluntarily willing to fulfill His will. Perhaps a better phrase than "free will" is "voluntary will."

They think sinners have some inner desire and ability to "prepare and cooperate" with the Holy Spirit for salvation. They don't understand that since the Fall, humans are spiritually dead, blind, and deaf, with no desire or ability to choose Christ. They don't see the need for God to first give new birth, faith, and repentance, before sinners can "freely will" to choose Christ.

Actually, you probably already believe that God's will rules man's will, but you just didn't know it...

Inspiration of Scripture: Do you believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture? If so, then you believe God ruled the wills of the Bible authors. They did not have "free will" to write errors in Scripture. Thankfully, the Lord kept their wills from error. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16)

Infallibility of Bible Prophecy: Do you believe the Bible prophecies are infallible? If so, then you believe God ruled the wills of the prophets. They did not have "free will" to prophesy errors. God inspired the Old Testament prophets to prophesy accurately about the coming Messiah. During the inspiration process, He influenced and ruled their wills to keep them from error: "no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation. For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet. 1:2-21)

That's why the test of a true prophet vs. a false prophet is the infallibility of their predictions (Deut. 18:21-22.) If the prophets could have exercised their own wills, free from God's control, then they never could have infallibly predicted Christ's virgin birth, city of birth, suffering death, resurrection, second coming, etc.

Heaven/New Earth: Finally, even if you don't believe in eternal security in this life, still you probably believe Christians can never leave heaven or the new earth. If so, then you believe God rules His peoples' wills. No one in heaven is free to leave and choose Hell. God will keep them willingly in heaven forever.

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Guest stegokitty
Well, I think you know where I stand. :20: Anything that declares that God is not 100% Sovereign and can fail at His plan is offensive and heresy in my book. I realize that others feel differently.

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

My son has a girl that likes him and takes him to her youth group every week. (They are 13). Today, he made the comment to me that the family was very nice, "even if the mom is wrong about Bible things". I asked him what he meant and he said "Well, she says that all children/babies automatically go to Heaven because they know no sin". I said - "Did you say anything?" He said - "No, I wanted to tell her she should read her Bible and get the truth about it, but I didn't want to be rude". LOL! It warms my heart to know he is paying attention. (and wouldn't be rude too, lol)

This was an excellent overview of the differing points, GMan. Thanks.

I don't think any of us would disagree with you when you say that God is 100% Sovereign. He is also a Graceful God, otherwise I would not be Saved! As he is 100% Sovereign and 100% Graceful then how do we reach a point whereby we say that he has chosen some to Salvation and others to Hell? If you don't mind I want to show what it says in Jn 3 v 16-18. Verse 18 states:- (I will take it you already know what 16 & 17 say)He that Believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condembed already! (WHY)? Because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can you inform me how he can believe in the name of the only bogotten Son of God when he has already been put on the Hell list? It is impossible for him to believe. So why is he being condemned for it? Do you think God would do that? I think not!

There are other numerous passages for an argument (I don't want one) against Calvanism, let alone the man himself, who was a Murderer, Self opinionated, control freak, who regularly got people excommunicated (what scripture I do not know) as well as believing that the church courts (which he set up) held the authority of the keys of heaven (sounds a bit catholic, from hwence he came, to me).

I don't mean to be-little anybody who believes his teachings but I would rather they stuck to scripture for their guidance.

Mr. Richardson,

This web-site may help you with some of your concerns

http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.html

In case the link does not work, I'm going to copy some of it. It was over 25 pages, but I think this portion speaks directly to your concerns:

In each of the 2 columns below, there are several verses. Which verses are true, the ones on the left, or the ones on the right? Since the Bible is true ("inerrant,") we must interpret both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses. How can we harmonize both sets of verses so they're both true at the same time? Look for any verses that clearly state sinners can/can't or are able/unable to come to Christ...

Human Responsibility to Come to Christ

1. "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)

2. "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Mt. 11:28)

3. "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God." (Jn. 7:17)

4. "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink." (Jn. 7:37)

5. "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38)

6. "Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19)

7. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)

8. "but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30)

9. "Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) Human Inability to Come to Christ

1. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

2. "How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Mt. 12:34)

3. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit." (Mt. 7:18)

4. "'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said to them, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Mt. 19:25-26)

5. "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3)

6. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44)

7. "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (Jn. 6:65)

8. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word." (Jn. 8:43)

9. "They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." (Jn. 12:39-40)

10. "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6)

11. "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Rom. 8:7)

12. "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom. 8:8)

13. "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:14)

On the left, are 9 verses inviting or commanding sinners to repent, believe, and come to Christ. These verses make sinners responsible to come to Christ. Notice, the number of verses that clearly state sinners can or are able to come to Christ: 0

On the right, are 13 verses clearly stating sinners can't come to Christ. (In addition, the Bible contains 3 verses clearly showing Christians inability to do anything for Christ, without His power: Jn. 15:5; 1 Cor. 12:3; Heb. 11:6. If Christians are unable to do anything without God's ability, then how much more impotent are unregenerate sinners?)

Which verses are true? The verses on the left stating sinners must come to Christ, or the verses on the right stating sinners can't come to Christ? Since God's Word is inerrant, they're both true. Then, how can we harmonize both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses so they're both true at the same time?

3 Different Views of Our Responsibility vs. Inability to Believe

There are 3 popular views attempting to interpret the above verses: Arminianism, Hyper-Calvinism, and Calvinism. Of the 3, Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism are the 2 extremes. Calvinism is the middle view.

1. Human Ability vs. No Interpretation (Some Arminians)

Many Arminians interpret the verses on the left labeled "Human Responsibility" at the expense of the verses on the right labeled "Human Inability." Most have no interpretation for the 13 verses on the right explicitly stating sinners can't, or aren't able to come to Christ. They interpret the verses on the left commanding responsibility as though they implied ability. Here's their logical fallacy:

The Logical Fallacy of Some Arminians

First Premise: God commands sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we're unable to do.)

Conclusion: Therefore, sinners are able to repent, believe & come to Christ.

There is no proof for the 2nd premise. It's assuming what you're trying to prove. Plus, if we could find only one example in Scripture where God commands more than we are able, it would also refute the assumption.

6 Examples Where God Commanded the Impossible

Below, are 6 examples where God commands humans to do something which they do not have the ability to do. In the first 4 verses, God commanded physically dead corpses to live. But, they had no desire or ability to respond, until God first gave them new life, with new desire and ability. (Likewise, we'll see later that He commands spiritually dead men to live, then gives them new life-regeneration, desire, and ability.)

1. "Prophecy to these (dead) bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!'" (Ezek. 37:4 Notice, those dead bones had no ability to hear the word of the Lord. God had to give those skeletons life first, before they had the ability to hear the word of the Lord.)

2. "a dead man was being carried out...Then He came and touched the open coffin...and He said, 'Young man, I say to you, arise.'" (Lk. 7:14 The dead man couldn't hear, until Christ first gave His miraculous power to him.)

3. "Your daughter is dead...He...took her by the hand and called saying, 'Little girl, arise.' Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately." (Lk. 8:49-55 The dead girl had no power to arise until Christ gave it to her.)

4. "Lazarus, come forth!" (Jn. 11:43, Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.)

5. "Therefore you shall be perfect (complete), just as your father in heaven is perfect." (Mt. 5:48)

6. "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30)

Just as it took a supernatural miracle to raise the physically dead before they could respond, so it takes a supernatural miracle to raise (regenerate) the spiritually dead before they can respond.

2. No Interpretation vs. Human Inability (Some Hyper-Calvinists)

Many Hyper-Calvinists interpret the verses on the right labeled "Human Inability" at the expense of the verses on the left labeled "Human Responsibility." They don't command or invite all men to repent, believe, & come to Christ. They don't proclaim the gospel to all sinners. They preach the gospel selectively only to those they think are elect.

The Logical Fallacy of Some Hyper-Calvinists

First Premise: Sinners are unable to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we're unable to do.)

Conclusion: Therefore, don't ask sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Notice, Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism share the exact same assumed premise: "God would not command what is unable." Both Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism exalt human reason above Divine revelation. They resort to humanism-rationalism.

3. Human Responsibility vs. Human Inability (Calvinism)

Sinners are responsible to repent, believe, and come to Christ. Yet, at the same time, they're unable to repent, believe, and come to Christ. This is the only solution that can harmonize both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses as simultaneously true.

(If it seems unfair to you that God holds rebels responsible for what they're unable to do, then please remember no one deserves salvation. True justice would be hell for the whole human race, wouldn't it? So, if God decides to give to some the desire and ability to come to Christ, then that's undeserved grace!)

But, why then does God command and invite sinners to believe, if they're unable? Perhaps, He uses the commands/invitations to come to Christ, as the "means to the end."

In other words, perhaps He uses the command to repent, as the means to granting repentance. And, He uses the command to believe, as the means to giving the gift of faith. And, He uses the invitation to come to Christ, as the means to give the desire and ability to come.

The idea that God uses commands as a means to an end is also demonstrated in how He preserves us in salvation. For, He actually warns true Christians of eternal damnation in Jn. 15:2, 6; Rom. 11:20-22; 1 Cor. 9:25, 27; Rev. 22:19, etc. And at the same time, He promises us eternal security. How then can we reconcile these 2 "seemingly contradictory" truths? It's simple...

He uses the warnings of losing our salvation as the means to preserve us in His promised eternal salvation. His warnings of losing salvation are the means He uses to keep us persevering to the end

Here's a clear example where God used warning as the means to the end of fulfilling His promise.

Promises of Divine Security:

"there will be no loss of life among you..." (Acts 27:22)

"God has granted you all those...with you." (Acts 27:24)

"not a hair will fall from the head of any..." (Acts 27:34)

Warning of Human Responsibility:

"Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved." (Acts 27:31)

Now, how in the world could God possibly warn of those sailors losing their lives, since He just promised that they wouldn't lose their lives? It's simple...God used the warning of death to keep them in the ship, to preserve them from death.

Likewise, He uses the command to repent, as the means to grant repentance. And, He uses the command to believe, as a means to give the gift of faith. And, He uses the invitations to come to Christ, as the means to draw sinners to Christ. To understand how God gave you salvation, keep reading below...

But, What About Free Will?

The phrase "free will" is found in the Bible 16 times. All 16 times it means "voluntary." Fifteen of those times it's used of a freewill (voluntary) offering. Not one of those 16 times does "free will" refer to salvation. Also, the idea that man has a "free will" independent from God's rule, probably had its origin in heathen, Greek philosophy.

"Free will" is the topic everyone assumes, but few define. If "free will" is defined as the "ability and desire to will to receive Christ", then that contradicts the 13 verses in the right column above. But, if "free will" is defined as "voluntary will to make choices," then humans have "free will."

We have free will in the sense we freely (voluntarily) will whatever we have both the desire and ability to do. God influences us by circumstances, thoughts, and power so we become voluntarily willing to fulfill His will. Perhaps a better phrase than "free will" is "voluntary will."

They think sinners have some inner desire and ability to "prepare and cooperate" with the Holy Spirit for salvation. They don't understand that since the Fall, humans are spiritually dead, blind, and deaf, with no desire or ability to choose Christ. They don't see the need for God to first give new birth, faith, and repentance, before sinners can "freely will" to choose Christ.

Actually, you probably already believe that God's will rules man's will, but you just didn't know it...

Inspiration of Scripture: Do you believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture? If so, then you believe God ruled the wills of the Bible authors. They did not have "free will" to write errors in Scripture. Thankfully, the Lord kept their wills from error. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16)

Infallibility of Bible Prophecy: Do you believe the Bible prophecies are infallible? If so, then you believe God ruled the wills of the prophets. They did not have "free will" to prophesy errors. God inspired the Old Testament prophets to prophesy accurately about the coming Messiah. During the inspiration process, He influenced and ruled their wills to keep them from error: "no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation. For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet. 1:2-21)

That's why the test of a true prophet vs. a false prophet is the infallibility of their predictions (Deut. 18:21-22.) If the prophets could have exercised their own wills, free from God's control, then they never could have infallibly predicted Christ's virgin birth, city of birth, suffering death, resurrection, second coming, etc.

Heaven/New Earth: Finally, even if you don't believe in eternal security in this life, still you probably believe Christians can never leave heaven or the new earth. If so, then you believe God rules His peoples' wills. No one in heaven is free to leave and choose Hell. God will keep them willingly in heaven forever.

Rhonda,

A fine response -- well thought out and defended. The short version of course is that "all people are free to choose whatsoever their hearts desire, but they are not "free" to choose whatsoever their hearts do not desire". An unregenerate sinner, described in the Word as being dead in sins, in bondage to Satan, an enemy of God, being one who finds the Gospel foolish, blind, unable to please God, opposed to spiritual things, and numerous other condemning descriptives, does not desire to be free of his sin, free from the kingdom of Satan; does not desire to be holy; does not desire the love of the one (triune), true God; does not believe he is in danger of the wrath of God, nor does he desire to hear anything of the sort; is not "free" to change his own mind, his own heart, breathe life into himself, open his own eyes and ears, give himself a believing heart, and choose Christ. Neither would he if he could. He cannot because he will not, and he will not because he cannot. Yes indeed, the raising of the dead is required, and only God can (and does) raise the dead. And everyone who takes part in that first resurrection (being born again, born from above) is kept from the Day of God's wrath.

The Arminian mixes things up and thinks that the Doctrines of Grace teach that God is somehow stopping sinners who really want to be saved from being saved. On the contrary! No one wants to be saved UNLESS God changes their heart of stone to a heart of flesh, opens their eyes so that they can see, their ears so that they can hear, and puts the love of Christ in them, and with that, his own Spirit, so that now, they can understand spiritual things, in other words, the Gospel, and believe it!

God saves sinners! God does not help sinners to save themselves (as is the Arminian gospel, no matter how they wish to slice it). God saves sinners! God does not give sinners a "chance". God saves sinners! God does not leave it up to man to come to his senses, because he never will.

John 6:3740 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus said that EVERYONE that the Father GIVES to him WILL come to him (and that means that ONLY those whom the Father gives to him will come, which therefore means that anyone who does not come was never given to the Son in the first place), and EVERYONE whom the Father gives to the Son shall be rasied up at the Last Day. So this quite clearly and quickly dispels any notion of the idea of the possiblility of the elect losing salvation, and that anyone BUT the elect shall be saved. And again as Rhonda pointed out from the Word, very clearly, there is nothing unfair about any of this. All of us have committed treason against our Creator and ALL of us (including babies) deserve God's wrath and curse. BUT God is merciful, and he chooses to show his mercy in saving many, and he chooses to display his justice by punishing the rest. Who can find fault in God for this? I'm amazed at the Grace of God that he'd saved a wretched, vomitous, rebellious sinner such as I, when I was oh so busy making idols.

God saves sinners!

PS, Rhonda the link you left doesn't work because you added the letter L at the end, it should be http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.htm instead.

Just one quick note to Arminians who wish to make the common (and false) accusation against John Calvin, that he was a murderer, you will want to be careful as slander is a sin. John Calvin killed no man. The Genevan government executed the heretic Servetus, which was standard operating procedure in that day and age in any Christianized nation. Servetus was not only against the Doctrines of Grace, but was anti-Trinitarian. He was a blashpemous man, and the law of the LAND was that his crimes were punishable by death. Calvin pleaded with the man to recant his position, as the penalty was out of his hands. John Calvin had plenty of influence within, but he did not rule Geneva. I suppose in retospect, with all the time that has passed, we can all find it rather easy to find blame with Calvin for this single act, but I find it really interesting that people who claim to be Christians wish to defend a man who refused to stop teaching Arianism rather than trying to understand the historical context in which John Calvin lived, and why he did what he did.

~ Stego

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Well, I think you know where I stand. :th_praying: Anything that declares that God is not 100% Sovereign and can fail at His plan is offensive and heresy in my book. I realize that others feel differently.

I really think that most people start from a wrong perspective. So many people think that human beings "deserve" something, or that they should get a "fair" deal. Once one realizes that all anyone deserves is hell, then the loving Almighty and the grace of His plan are revealed. Awesome!

My son has a girl that likes him and takes him to her youth group every week. (They are 13). Today, he made the comment to me that the family was very nice, "even if the mom is wrong about Bible things". I asked him what he meant and he said "Well, she says that all children/babies automatically go to Heaven because they know no sin". I said - "Did you say anything?" He said - "No, I wanted to tell her she should read her Bible and get the truth about it, but I didn't want to be rude". LOL! It warms my heart to know he is paying attention. (and wouldn't be rude too, lol)

This was an excellent overview of the differing points, GMan. Thanks.

I don't think any of us would disagree with you when you say that God is 100% Sovereign. He is also a Graceful God, otherwise I would not be Saved! As he is 100% Sovereign and 100% Graceful then how do we reach a point whereby we say that he has chosen some to Salvation and others to Hell? If you don't mind I want to show what it says in Jn 3 v 16-18. Verse 18 states:- (I will take it you already know what 16 & 17 say)He that Believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condembed already! (WHY)? Because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can you inform me how he can believe in the name of the only bogotten Son of God when he has already been put on the Hell list? It is impossible for him to believe. So why is he being condemned for it? Do you think God would do that? I think not!

There are other numerous passages for an argument (I don't want one) against Calvanism, let alone the man himself, who was a Murderer, Self opinionated, control freak, who regularly got people excommunicated (what scripture I do not know) as well as believing that the church courts (which he set up) held the authority of the keys of heaven (sounds a bit catholic, from hwence he came, to me).

I don't mean to be-little anybody who believes his teachings but I would rather they stuck to scripture for their guidance.

Mr. Richardson,

This web-site may help you with some of your concerns

http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.html

In case the link does not work, I'm going to copy some of it. It was over 25 pages, but I think this portion speaks directly to your concerns:

In each of the 2 columns below, there are several verses. Which verses are true, the ones on the left, or the ones on the right? Since the Bible is true ("inerrant,") we must interpret both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses. How can we harmonize both sets of verses so they're both true at the same time? Look for any verses that clearly state sinners can/can't or are able/unable to come to Christ...

Human Responsibility to Come to Christ

1. "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)

2. "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Mt. 11:28)

3. "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God." (Jn. 7:17)

4. "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink." (Jn. 7:37)

5. "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38)

6. "Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19)

7. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)

8. "but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30)

9. "Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) Human Inability to Come to Christ

1. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

2. "How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Mt. 12:34)

3. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit." (Mt. 7:18)

4. "'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said to them, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Mt. 19:25-26)

5. "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3)

6. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44)

7. "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (Jn. 6:65)

8. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word." (Jn. 8:43)

9. "They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." (Jn. 12:39-40)

10. "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6)

11. "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Rom. 8:7)

12. "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom. 8:8)

13. "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:14)

On the left, are 9 verses inviting or commanding sinners to repent, believe, and come to Christ. These verses make sinners responsible to come to Christ. Notice, the number of verses that clearly state sinners can or are able to come to Christ: 0

On the right, are 13 verses clearly stating sinners can't come to Christ. (In addition, the Bible contains 3 verses clearly showing Christians inability to do anything for Christ, without His power: Jn. 15:5; 1 Cor. 12:3; Heb. 11:6. If Christians are unable to do anything without God's ability, then how much more impotent are unregenerate sinners?)

Which verses are true? The verses on the left stating sinners must come to Christ, or the verses on the right stating sinners can't come to Christ? Since God's Word is inerrant, they're both true. Then, how can we harmonize both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses so they're both true at the same time?

3 Different Views of Our Responsibility vs. Inability to Believe

There are 3 popular views attempting to interpret the above verses: Arminianism, Hyper-Calvinism, and Calvinism. Of the 3, Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism are the 2 extremes. Calvinism is the middle view.

1. Human Ability vs. No Interpretation (Some Arminians)

Many Arminians interpret the verses on the left labeled "Human Responsibility" at the expense of the verses on the right labeled "Human Inability." Most have no interpretation for the 13 verses on the right explicitly stating sinners can't, or aren't able to come to Christ. They interpret the verses on the left commanding responsibility as though they implied ability. Here's their logical fallacy:

The Logical Fallacy of Some Arminians

First Premise: God commands sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we're unable to do.)

Conclusion: Therefore, sinners are able to repent, believe & come to Christ.

There is no proof for the 2nd premise. It's assuming what you're trying to prove. Plus, if we could find only one example in Scripture where God commands more than we are able, it would also refute the assumption.

6 Examples Where God Commanded the Impossible

Below, are 6 examples where God commands humans to do something which they do not have the ability to do. In the first 4 verses, God commanded physically dead corpses to live. But, they had no desire or ability to respond, until God first gave them new life, with new desire and ability. (Likewise, we'll see later that He commands spiritually dead men to live, then gives them new life-regeneration, desire, and ability.)

1. "Prophecy to these (dead) bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!'" (Ezek. 37:4 Notice, those dead bones had no ability to hear the word of the Lord. God had to give those skeletons life first, before they had the ability to hear the word of the Lord.)

2. "a dead man was being carried out...Then He came and touched the open coffin...and He said, 'Young man, I say to you, arise.'" (Lk. 7:14 The dead man couldn't hear, until Christ first gave His miraculous power to him.)

3. "Your daughter is dead...He...took her by the hand and called saying, 'Little girl, arise.' Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately." (Lk. 8:49-55 The dead girl had no power to arise until Christ gave it to her.)

4. "Lazarus, come forth!" (Jn. 11:43, Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.)

5. "Therefore you shall be perfect (complete), just as your father in heaven is perfect." (Mt. 5:48)

6. "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30)

Just as it took a supernatural miracle to raise the physically dead before they could respond, so it takes a supernatural miracle to raise (regenerate) the spiritually dead before they can respond.

2. No Interpretation vs. Human Inability (Some Hyper-Calvinists)

Many Hyper-Calvinists interpret the verses on the right labeled "Human Inability" at the expense of the verses on the left labeled "Human Responsibility." They don't command or invite all men to repent, believe, & come to Christ. They don't proclaim the gospel to all sinners. They preach the gospel selectively only to those they think are elect.

The Logical Fallacy of Some Hyper-Calvinists

First Premise: Sinners are unable to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we're unable to do.)

Conclusion: Therefore, don't ask sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.

Notice, Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism share the exact same assumed premise: "God would not command what is unable." Both Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism exalt human reason above Divine revelation. They resort to humanism-rationalism.

3. Human Responsibility vs. Human Inability (Calvinism)

Sinners are responsible to repent, believe, and come to Christ. Yet, at the same time, they're unable to repent, believe, and come to Christ. This is the only solution that can harmonize both sets of "seemingly contradictory" verses as simultaneously true.

(If it seems unfair to you that God holds rebels responsible for what they're unable to do, then please remember no one deserves salvation. True justice would be hell for the whole human race, wouldn't it? So, if God decides to give to some the desire and ability to come to Christ, then that's undeserved grace!)

But, why then does God command and invite sinners to believe, if they're unable? Perhaps, He uses the commands/invitations to come to Christ, as the "means to the end."

In other words, perhaps He uses the command to repent, as the means to granting repentance. And, He uses the command to believe, as the means to giving the gift of faith. And, He uses the invitation to come to Christ, as the means to give the desire and ability to come.

The idea that God uses commands as a means to an end is also demonstrated in how He preserves us in salvation. For, He actually warns true Christians of eternal damnation in Jn. 15:2, 6; Rom. 11:20-22; 1 Cor. 9:25, 27; Rev. 22:19, etc. And at the same time, He promises us eternal security. How then can we reconcile these 2 "seemingly contradictory" truths? It's simple...

He uses the warnings of losing our salvation as the means to preserve us in His promised eternal salvation. His warnings of losing salvation are the means He uses to keep us persevering to the end

Here's a clear example where God used warning as the means to the end of fulfilling His promise.

Promises of Divine Security:

"there will be no loss of life among you..." (Acts 27:22)

"God has granted you all those...with you." (Acts 27:24)

"not a hair will fall from the head of any..." (Acts 27:34)

Warning of Human Responsibility:

"Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved." (Acts 27:31)

Now, how in the world could God possibly warn of those sailors losing their lives, since He just promised that they wouldn't lose their lives? It's simple...God used the warning of death to keep them in the ship, to preserve them from death.

Likewise, He uses the command to repent, as the means to grant repentance. And, He uses the command to believe, as a means to give the gift of faith. And, He uses the invitations to come to Christ, as the means to draw sinners to Christ. To understand how God gave you salvation, keep reading below...

But, What About Free Will?

The phrase "free will" is found in the Bible 16 times. All 16 times it means "voluntary." Fifteen of those times it's used of a freewill (voluntary) offering. Not one of those 16 times does "free will" refer to salvation. Also, the idea that man has a "free will" independent from God's rule, probably had its origin in heathen, Greek philosophy.

"Free will" is the topic everyone assumes, but few define. If "free will" is defined as the "ability and desire to will to receive Christ", then that contradicts the 13 verses in the right column above. But, if "free will" is defined as "voluntary will to make choices," then humans have "free will."

We have free will in the sense we freely (voluntarily) will whatever we have both the desire and ability to do. God influences us by circumstances, thoughts, and power so we become voluntarily willing to fulfill His will. Perhaps a better phrase than "free will" is "voluntary will."

They think sinners have some inner desire and ability to "prepare and cooperate" with the Holy Spirit for salvation. They don't understand that since the Fall, humans are spiritually dead, blind, and deaf, with no desire or ability to choose Christ. They don't see the need for God to first give new birth, faith, and repentance, before sinners can "freely will" to choose Christ.

Actually, you probably already believe that God's will rules man's will, but you just didn't know it...

Inspiration of Scripture: Do you believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture? If so, then you believe God ruled the wills of the Bible authors. They did not have "free will" to write errors in Scripture. Thankfully, the Lord kept their wills from error. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16)

Infallibility of Bible Prophecy: Do you believe the Bible prophecies are infallible? If so, then you believe God ruled the wills of the prophets. They did not have "free will" to prophesy errors. God inspired the Old Testament prophets to prophesy accurately about the coming Messiah. During the inspiration process, He influenced and ruled their wills to keep them from error: "no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation. For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet. 1:2-21)

That's why the test of a true prophet vs. a false prophet is the infallibility of their predictions (Deut. 18:21-22.) If the prophets could have exercised their own wills, free from God's control, then they never could have infallibly predicted Christ's virgin birth, city of birth, suffering death, resurrection, second coming, etc.

Heaven/New Earth: Finally, even if you don't believe in eternal security in this life, still you probably believe Christians can never leave heaven or the new earth. If so, then you believe God rules His peoples' wills. No one in heaven is free to leave and choose Hell. God will keep them willingly in heaven forever.

Rhonda,

A fine response -- well thought out and defended. The short version of course is that "all people are free to choose whatsoever their hearts desire, but they are not "free" to choose whatsoever their hearts do not desire". An unregenerate sinner, described in the Word as being dead in sins, in bondage to Satan, an enemy of God, being one who finds the Gospel foolish, blind, unable to please God, opposed to spiritual things, and numerous other condemning descriptives, does not desire to be free of his sin, free from the kingdom of Satan; does not desire to be holy; does not desire the love of the one (triune), true God; does not believe he is in danger of the wrath of God, nor does he desire to hear anything of the sort; is not "free" to change his own mind, his own heart, breathe life into himself, open his own eyes and ears, give himself a believing heart, and choose Christ. Neither would he if he could. He cannot because he will not, and he will not because he cannot. Yes indeed, the raising of the dead is required, and only God can (and does) raise the dead. And everyone who takes part in that first resurrection (being born again, born from above) is kept from the Day of God's wrath.

The Arminian mixes things up and thinks that the Doctrines of Grace teach that God is somehow stopping sinners who really want to be saved from being saved. On the contrary! No one wants to be saved UNLESS God changes their heart of stone to a heart of flesh, opens their eyes so that they can see, their ears so that they can hear, and puts the love of Christ in them, and with that, his own Spirit, so that now, they can understand spiritual things, in other words, the Gospel, and believe it!

God saves sinners! God does not help sinners to save themselves (as is the Arminian gospel, no matter how they wish to slice it). God saves sinners! God does not give sinners a "chance". God saves sinners! God does not leave it up to man to come to his senses, because he never will.

John 6:3740 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus said that EVERYONE that the Father GIVES to him WILL come to him (and that means that ONLY those whom the Father gives to him will come, which therefore means that anyone who does not come was never given to the Son in the first place), and EVERYONE whom the Father gives to the Son shall be rasied up at the Last Day. So this quite clearly and quickly dispels any notion of the idea of the possiblility of the elect losing salvation, and that anyone BUT the elect shall be saved. And again as Rhonda pointed out from the Word, very clearly, there is nothing unfair about any of this. All of us have committed treason against our Creator and ALL of us (including babies) deserve God's wrath and curse. BUT God is merciful, and he chooses to show his mercy in saving many, and he chooses to display his justice by punishing the rest. Who can find fault in God for this? I'm amazed at the Grace of God that he'd saved a wretched, vomitous, rebellious sinner such as I, when I was oh so busy making idols.

God saves sinners!

PS, Rhonda the link you left doesn't work because you added the letter L at the end, it should be http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/calvinismarminianism.htm instead.

Just one quick note to Arminians who wish to make the common (and false) accusation against John Calvin, that he was a murderer, you will want to be careful as slander is a sin. John Calvin killed no man. The Genevan government executed the heretic Servetus, which was standard operating procedure in that day and age in any Christianized nation. Servetus was not only against the Doctrines of Grace, but was anti-Trinitarian. He was a blashpemous man, and the law of the LAND was that his crimes were punishable by death. Calvin pleaded with the man to recant his position, as the penalty was out of his hands. John Calvin had plenty of influence within, but he did not rule Geneva. I suppose in retospect, with all the time that has passed, we can all find it rather easy to find blame with Calvin for this single act, but I find it really interesting that people who claim to be Christians wish to defend a man who refused to stop teaching Arianism rather than trying to understand the historical context in which John Calvin lived, and why he did what he did.

~ Stego

Thank you for responding to me post and for the correction to the web-site. I apologize that it took so long to respond. My modem gave out, so I have to find time during breaks at work to respond (and it never seems to be enough time). I'm getting the rest fixed this Wednesday, but felt it bad manners to wait longer to respond to what took you so long to type!! I agree with everything you wrote, having been convinced that there are too many verses in the Bible which say that God chose/elected us. The selling point for me, actually, is just what you stated: Dead people can not give themselves life, and we are all dead in our sins.

I DO believe that the Bible has verses which stipulate choice, meaning, I do not deny that the Bible says, "Choose life" in Deuteronomy 30:28-29, or all of the verses which state that those who believe will be saved. It always seems like those opposed to predestination believe one set of verses, and those for it like another set of verses. Yet all verses, from both categories are in the Bible. I don't like to deny ANY verse in the Bible!! And I do NOT believe the Bible contradicts itself. Therefore, I blieve in predestination, and choice (though I'd not call it "free" will) -- but I believe that GOD's choices trump ours. As you say, those who are elected desire election because God gave them the desire. God does NOT send people to hell. Nobody wants heaven, and nobody is perfect to enter heaven. God chooses from grace to save some. Romans 1:18-20 makes it clear that people have an instinct that there is a God from nature. Romans 2:14-15 speaks of the fact that we all have consciences, which are a moral guidepost, also pointing to a Lawgiver. So there is no excuse for those who reject God. There is nobody who WANTS to be a Christian who can't be, and there is nobody who does NOT want to be a Christian who will be. It is just that God gives some the desire to be Christians.

The way I see it is this: It is a matter of perspective. I can look at the sky and see clouds, a plane flies above the clouds where there is sun. The sun is always there -- above the clouds -- but we don't see it, and act on the information we have. That's the "choice" part. But, the sun IS there (whether we acknowledge it or not). From our limited perspective of seeing clouds, we make a conscious decision to obey God. But the truth is, behind the decision, God has worked in our lives to give us a love of Him, given us the faith to believe: It is all Him. I know that, and believe that to the core of my being. Only His working in my life makes everything else possible. But, in my own limited perspective, I still say, 'Yes, Lord, I choose you." The true moment of salvation, however, is when GOD went to work on me.

I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but it is the way I've chosen to believe ALL of the passages of the Bible -- not just some of them.

Rhonda

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So, I managed to read 80 pages of comments about dutch church history, and I see the same arguments that were used.

Let's see, were I'm from... Oh yeah, the Netherlands... wow... that explains alot.

And it was kind of boring, reading all what was written. Over the years, time learned here that not the differences between each explaination of the bible are important, but the thing that keeps it together, believe in Christ that has send his Son as savior for us all.

Recently, many of the seperations mentoined came back togehter in a union. Some pastors wanted to believe us that the unity of spirit binds the churches togehter. But that is not the basic idea behind the large "union" church, PKN, that re-united (May 1, 2004) the dutch reformed church, the reformed church and a couple of smaller protestant churches. The basis behind the joining together are financial issues. Old churchbuildings are expensive, for a start. Less people are visiting sermons and so on. So it had to be reorganised to make it a bit more profitable. Also some more doubtfull "christian" church were added, like a mormonchurch. (that is also why some respected pastors say it is the start of a one-world-united-church of satan)

At the end, I think that God is not judging us on which church we attend, but on our relationship with Him.

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And Calvinists would say the same of your position. So there you go

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And Calvinists would say the same of your position. So there you go
I can disprove Calvinism with one quote from Jesus Christ himself,Calvinist teach that Jesus died for the elect only and they love to use the verse in John 6:44 where Jesus says no man can come to me except the Father draw them(which is true)the problem is I say God draws ALL men while Calvinist proclaim that he draws only the elect,but what did Jesus say?

John 12:32And if I be lifted up from the earth(which he was on the cross)I will draw ALL men unto me

Except that all men are not coming to Jesus. Some remain separated from Him and will into eternity. So you have not really disproved anything. Both Calvinism and Arminianism acknowledge this. The difference is how they explain why it happens.

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And Calvinists would say the same of your position. So there you go
I can disprove Calvinism with one quote from Jesus Christ himself,Calvinist teach that Jesus died for the elect only and they love to use the verse in John 6:44 where Jesus says no man can come to me except the Father draw them(which is true)the problem is I say God draws ALL men while Calvinist proclaim that he draws only the elect,but what did Jesus say?

John 12:32And if I be lifted up from the earth(which he was on the cross)I will draw ALL men unto me

You can go to John 6:44 and read it in context and get an entirely different picture of this verse. The option to come is not a limited call. Those who see the son and believe on him are the ones who Jesus has been given to raise up with eternal life. There were those who followed him for the meat that perished and there were those who looked for the words of eternal life. The chapter begins with the feeding of the 5000. It goes into the lesson of Jesus being the bread of life and it continues by saying that it is the words of Jesus that are spirit and life. By taking in the words of Christ, and digesting them, we turn them into our energy for doing good. Since we are all going to be judged by our works, these good deeds, wrought in Christ, by faith, will bring us eternal life. The chapter ends with the mention of Judas. Judas was one who followed for earthly gain, like those who followed Jesus for the free lunch. He saw an opportunity to get money from the ministry, by stealing from the bag he carried for the Lord

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