Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest Biblicist]

"Lazarus come forth!"

Lazarus was dead, four days, he smelled. He could not change his position. He could not accept or reject Christ's call. He was dead.

Just like Lazarus, I was dead. I could not change my position, neither could I accept or reject Christ's call. When He called I went, there was no other way.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."

[7cworldwide]

Amen, Biblicist!

I would also reiterate the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:13—"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

The logical order of God's work:

1) Election to salvation by the Father

2) The regeneration of the elect one by the Holy Spirit

3) True belief in Christ by the elect one

This is God's design and we can see the work of each member of the Trinity in carrying it out.

jamie—It is generally perceived that it is by the regenerate one's own free will that he/she comes to Christ. But it is actually the efficacious drawing of the Father through the Holy Spirit to Christ that brings his sheep to belief and repentance.

Blessings,

Lane

Edited January 22, 2007 by 7cworldwide

[jamie]

"Lazarus come forth!"

Lazarus was dead, four days, he smelled. He could not change his position. He could not accept or reject Christ's call. He was dead.

Just like Lazarus, I was dead. I could not change my position, neither could I accept or reject Christ's call. When He called I went, there was no other way.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."

Notice God said, "he who believes"....not, "he who I 'make' believe me'.

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove there. Choice is still involved for the living as far as whom we will serve. Choose you this day whom you will serve (Joshua 24:15)

[Guest Biblicist]

"Lazarus come forth!"

Lazarus was dead, four days, he smelled. He could not change his position. He could not accept or reject Christ's call. He was dead.

Just like Lazarus, I was dead. I could not change my position, neither could I accept or reject Christ's call. When He called I went, there was no other way.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."

Notice God said, "he who believes"....not, "he who I 'make' believe me'.

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove there. Choice is still involved for the living as far as whom we will serve. Choose you this day whom you will serve (Joshua 24:15)

jamie ~ That verse was addressed to the Old Testement saints. Different context than New Testament.

Didn't you feel that way when you received the Lord as your Saviour? Did you not feel as if you had no choice. That it was just something that you had to do. Called out of the darkness into the light and you had no choice. Do or die.

That's the way it was for me. My salvation was more instinctual than choice. I knew that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and I needed to pray and tell him that I accepted it. I did not feel I had the option to reject Him in any way. All I could say was "Yes, LORD."

Bib

[Ovedya]

The problem that I have with Arminianism specifically deals with the idea that, at the fall, man's free will was left unaffected and uninfluenced by sin. Man is either totally depraved (filled with sin) or he is not.

If we say that man's free will was unaffected by sin at the fall, then we should logically conclude that free will is the one aspect of man that is greater or stronger than sin itself. Man can then choose good over evil and not fall into evil's various traps and trappings. Well, if that were the case, that we could choose good over evil and resist temptation at all times, then there logically would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

In fact, Paul affirms the fact that free will isn't so free. For even though he willed to god, the ability to do so was not present within him, and he found himself doing those things which he would rather not have done. This is in Romans 6 and 7 respectively, of course.

[jamie]

The problem that I have with Arminianism specifically deals with the idea that, at the fall, man's free will was left unaffected and uninfluenced by sin. Man is either totally depraved (filled with sin) or he is not.

If we say that man's free will was unaffected by sin at the fall, then we should logically conclude that free will is the one aspect of man that is greater or stronger than sin itself. Man can then choose good over evil and not fall into evil's various traps and trappings. Well, if that were the case, that we could choose good over evil and resist temptation at all times, then there logically would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

In fact, Paul affirms the fact that free will isn't so free. For even though he willed to god, the ability to do so was not present within him, and he found himself doing those things which he would rather not have done. This is in Romans 6 and 7 respectively, of course.

None of us have a choice when it comes to our inherited sin nature; I had no choice in the characteristics I inherited from my natural parents. My choices are in how I choose to live my life.

Jesus Christ came so that we could have power over sin, he came to give us a better way. He obviously knew we had a choice in which nature we would fulfill or He wouldn't have told us not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Again there is a choice here...

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

If we didn't possess the ability to make choices by an act of our will, the bible would have been written in vain.

[Guest Biblicist]

None of us have a choice when it comes to our inherited sin nature; I had no choice in the characteristics I inherited from my natural parents. My choices are in how I choose to live my life.

Jesus Christ came so that we could have power over sin, he came to give us a better way. He obviously knew we had a choice in which nature we would fulfill or He wouldn't have told us not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Again there is a choice here...

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

If we didn't possess the ability to make choices the bible would have been written in vain.

You are very correct in stating that we have no choice in the inherited sinful nature. And having a sinful nature and having hearts that are inherently wicked(Genesis 8:21), we can not choose to do right. Before redemption it is not in our nature to choose good instead of evil.

What a wonderful passage of Scripture, Galatians 5 was written to those who have been redeemed. Those living in the Freedom of Christ. After redemption we again have the freedom to live for Christ or disobey and sin. Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

You didn't answer me though. . . When you were called and redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ, was it something you felt you could reject? Did you feel as if you had a choice either way? Take this path or the other. . .?

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Bib

[Ovedya]

The problem that I have with Arminianism specifically deals with the idea that, at the fall, man's free will was left unaffected and uninfluenced by sin. Man is either totally depraved (filled with sin) or he is not.

If we say that man's free will was unaffected by sin at the fall, then we should logically conclude that free will is the one aspect of man that is greater or stronger than sin itself. Man can then choose good over evil and not fall into evil's various traps and trappings. Well, if that were the case, that we could choose good over evil and resist temptation at all times, then there logically would have been no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

In fact, Paul affirms the fact that free will isn't so free. For even though he willed to god, the ability to do so was not present within him, and he found himself doing those things which he would rather not have done. This is in Romans 6 and 7 respectively, of course.

None of us have a choice when it comes to our inherited sin nature; I had no choice in the characteristics I inherited from my natural parents. My choices are in how I choose to live my life.

Jesus Christ came so that we could have power over sin, he came to give us a better way. He obviously knew we had a choice in which nature we would fulfill or He wouldn't have told us not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Again there is a choice here...

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

If we didn't possess the ability to make choices by an act of our will, the bible would have been written in vain.

The issue is not in having the ability to choose, but not having the capacity to choose good over evil.

A believer saved by grace has the authority to choose to walk in the Spirit because the power of sin has been nullified by the cross.

[7cworldwide]

...and until we are regenerated we are in bondage to sin. We are only liberated in Christ!

[jamie]

You didn't answer me though. . . When you were called and redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ, was it something you felt you could reject? Did you feel as if you had a choice either way? Take this path or the other. . .?

Biblicist, I answered this somewhere already. I will say again that God brought me to the end of my desire to live according to my sin nature. After he brought me to the end of myself, he put people in my life to remind me to live for Him.

One night, through His wooing and hard knocks, I gave my life to Him.

It was like the lights came on, all things were brand new! I would have been a fool to reject such a life for my old sinful life; not because I had no choice, but because that life had been tried and I was empty, I was made ready through outward and inward circumstances for change, yet my will was never overthrown; I came willingly through His working at this point.

See my post above on the example of a husband and wife.

Along the way I have had to make choices to perservere.

ovedya:

The issue is not in having the ability to choose, but not having the capacity to choose good over evil.

A believer saved by grace has the authority to choose to walk in the Spirit because the power of sin has been nullified by the cross.

Let me ask you this; If you are in desperate need of money and you are unsaved, do you have the capcity to choose not to rob a bank or not? Why or why not?

There is a big difference in being in bondage to the sin 'nature' ...and having 'no' capacity to do the right thing. If we had no capacity to make right choices, saved or unsaved, we would live in total anarchy.