Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest mcm42]

Faith is not a work. Work is something that we take credit for. Work is something that we can be rewarded for. Work is something that we can boast about. Work is meritorious. Faith is non-meritorious. A person cannot "take credit" or "praise himself" for his faith, because faith is not meritorious (not deserving of reward or honor). Faith is not something that a person can boast about. Faith does not take credit for itself. Faith gives all the credit to Christ. Faith acknowledges that Christ gets all the credit and praise and honor, for He did it all

This is not true... Faith very much holds a pride, and is acted out as a single "Work" What do you have to do to be saved. I have to believe. So then my pride is in the fact that I Believed in God. How many poor souls will raise there hand thinking that is faith... rather it is just another work. In order for Salvation (which I equate with Faith, I see the two as inseperable) to be totally by grace, we must do nothing for it. Therefore, we must not even believe of our own accord, because then we could take credit for believing. If the faith is the gift, then I no longer have any way of boasting, in my own belief but in a belief given to me, allowed for me to have, chosen by God, not of my own accord. Therefore even belief, even a faith that presumes to have on his own, is a work, something he can attribute to himself. How were you saved? Were saved because God saw that you would choose him? Or are you saved because God decided to choose you?

The question I would ask is... "what do I have to do to get the salvation that I do nothing for?" You would say you have to believe... but that would involve me doing something and therefore I would be the cause of my own salvation, therefore a belief or faith of my own. this is not good enough... The Scriptures demand a faith not of works, even the work of choosing, "having faith" or believing, that is of our own accord. If the belief or faith is not given, then we orchestrated it and we can boast of that! Any work, any deed no matter how little is not good enough. For even the demons believe and shudder. Is this belief one that saves? no! they know, and they believe, but that is one of their own accord, the faith God gives to His elect is the saving faith, the faith through which God delivers his grace.

Why faith? Faith and Salvation are inseperable. You can not say one had faith and then was saved, and I can not say that one was saved and then had faith. They are simultaneous. The faith is the "through" or the means by which salvation is brought to us. There is no salvation without faith...

That is why faith...

You quoted numerous passages that show "no works". I see choosing, Believing Having faith all as verbs, things which I do i.e. works. I see the gift of faith which God gives through his calling and choosing, as something I am not at all in control of, something I literally do nothing for, but produces works to the glory of God.

[Guest mcm42]

Here's an interesting passage

Gal 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal the SOn to me in order that I might preach among the Gentiles."

So this is how Paul viewed his conversion, set apart, and chosen by grace... interesting indeed.

Galatians chapter 3 was rather enlightening to me as well, as I read Scripture I am ever convinced that we are called and chosen by God, for salvation.

[Work in Progress]

Great, mcm, but probably a waste of time. Only the HS can move people out of their comfort zone.

I guess since everyone feels they can be so dogmatic and absolutey sure of their opinion, I can join right in, right?

Calvin had it 100% RIGHT - it is everything Scripture teaches about the state of mankind and God's plan of Salvation. It is 100% perfect and true, not to mention quite clear for anyone to understand once you get past all the silly man-made stuff one was taught in Sunday School, and past all one's "feel good" doctrine of what they think God should be . Whether or not one likes it or understands it. Period.

Ahhhhh......it feels good to join in on the dogmatism.

[Guest LadyC]

what amazes me is how those of opposing opinions can post comments about the dogmatic comfort zones of other's feelgood doctrines that they make their own comfort zone and feel good doctrine come across as superior.

hello, God gave us all the ability to read scripture and be led by the HS, and what i believe comes from my understanding of what God has revealed to me, not what i was taught in sunday school.

let's all try not to get on a high horse about our own theological beliefs, ok? i'm trying, mcm is trying too, as is reflected in his earlier agreement to disagree.

sorry WIP, i really do like you, but that comment came across very, uh, i'm not sure of the word i'm looking for, but it wasn't very flattering

[Guest mcm42]

Woa, I totally agree with two consecutive posts, that's odd?

Anywho, WIP your probably right, (as far as it being pointless) if my goal is to sway everyone on here to believe in Calvinism. But it's not. I'm really trying to see the other side. I'm glad that commentary piece was posted, it's a challenge for me to review what I believe, and come back. Ultimatly both sides will grow stronger in their belief, certainly no one thinks we are going to change at this point.

My fellow Calvinist, and saracastic brother... I caught the sarcasm, and I caught your point.

Lady C YEAH! Right ON! if ever I have been able to agree to disagree, this is that time! It just takes honest admission from both that we aren't ABSOLUTELY sure and we are still searching, still learning, and not saying "HEY I"VE GOT ALL THE ANSWERS".

God Bless you Both...

[Guest mcm42]

I'm going to slowly work through your post Jm, with obvious reasons. First I think you quoted a commentary, I'm not going to get into some of the technical parts, yet for I don't even understand them. I could easily quote back to you another commentary that opposes you, but what would I have learned? I have already read a little about the neuter pronoun. I'm trying to understand if what was written below is accurate.

anyway... you stated above that there are no instances where faith is referred to as a gift... here are three...

Phill 1- (Shows that it faith, or belief is given or granted)

29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

Acts 3:16- Shows that faith comes through Christ's work not the man's

16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all."

2 Peter 1:1-3

1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

These are just a few passages that show faith as a gift, granted to us by God...

I'll address some more points of your post later...

[serotta]

mcm42 wrote:

Faith and Salvation are inseperable. You can not say one had faith and then was saved, and I can not say that one was saved and then had faith. They are simultaneous. The faith is the "through" or the means by which salvation is brought to us. There is no salvation without faith...

Amen mcm42!

I think that can bring resolution to this entire thread. Whether your 100% DAISY, 100% TULIP, or somewhere in between, THAT is the statement that all should be able to agree upon. THAT is the truth. Thank you and bless you.

[Shelby]

I agree with some that said neither. I am a Christian and more Wesleyan than anything, if a label is to be made. This is what I believe.

I believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God; and that they only constitute the divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

I believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect - the Creator, Preserver and Governor of all things - and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

I believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost -undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.

I believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the divine and human natures are united; so that he is truly and properly God, and truly and properly man.

I believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency but, by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness; and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has, by his suffering and death, made an atonement for the whole world, so that whosoever will may be saved.

I believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.

I believe that we are justified by grace, through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ; and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.

I believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.

I believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be 'wholly sanctified', and that their 'whole spirit and soul and body' may 'be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

This is what I believe.

[Guest mcm42]

they lost their purity and happiness; and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

This is most interesting... when you say totally depraved what do you mean?

[Shelby]

Depravity

The terms