Calvin vs. Arminius

[simpletruth]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

[simpletruth]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

[simpletruth]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

[simpletruth]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

[simpletruth]

I did not read all the posts, goodness there are so many, but I was wondering if anyone has quoted John 17? That's Christ's High Priestley Prayer before he was arrested in the garden. We have been studying it recently, oddly enough. One thing I have noticed in my studies is that the terms "elect or election" are used numerous times. . . Just a thought.

I think splits like this, arguing over the same verses, comes from those who are not aware of the proper use of Hermeneutics. God does not say one thing to one person, and another completely different thing to another person, in the same verses. And I believe that it is possible that people just take their elders word for it and not study for themselves. Which we are admonished not to do.

There are some good studies I have found on the internet, http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3293 This one talks about Free Will. I think it goes hand in hand with this conversation.

(Link removed by moderator. We don't allow links to youtube) I felt this one was a good video. I would absolutely love the program they use in the video. It's the key verse that Arminians tend to cling to. Listen to it and draw your own conclusions. Remember that we can not learn about God from only one verse or even a few. We must take the entire Bible to learn about our God. I am not convinced that Calvin or Arminius, or anyone, is capable of knowing everything about God.

To sum things up, the difference between predestination and "free-will salvation" hinges on one enormous factor, that is, does the Bible teach that God love all people? For many years I held to the teaching that God did indeed love every single person. Why did I believe this? Because each and every preacher, priest I had ever listened to said this was so. Why did I accept this teaching as fact? Because of two main factors. First, I was under the impression that if a man called himself a minister, preacher, etc, there was no way he could possibly be wrong and, two, I had not studied for myself what was being taught. Why had I not studied? Because I had never been taught how to do true Bible study. Eventually I quit attending any church building because of my frustration with wanting to learn and know much more than the same old claptrap being presented at all of these different, yet similar church groups. About seven years ago I came across some tapes from a teacher in another state and lo and behold, this man teaches people how to study the bible for themselves instead of emitting the attitude that true bible study is only for those who have attended some type of seminary, bible college, etc. As a result, I eagerly began a long, intense study of Scripture that has continued to this day.

I have given this little background so that any who read this understand that what I have to say is completely backed by God's word, not my own personal belief, nor from what others have told me what to believe,[as was the case for many years.]

With that being said, I have one simple request. After presenting a few points, if any believe that I am in error, please use scripture or accurate research to refute me, not opinion.

1. The Bible does not teach that God loves everybody!

This great lie has been presented by countless people. Amazingly, this huge false teaching has been established from only ONE single verse in the bible! That verse, of course is Jn 3:16. How astounding this is. There are no other verses cited by people to back up this claim. No references from any other N.T. book nor nary a verse quoted from the O.T. are ever used to validate this belief. Yet, the claim that God loves all people has been repeated millions of times.

I ask anyone to show me other verses that state that God loves all people. As all of you know, or should know, no one can present something as a bible doctrine from just one single verse and the concept has to have also been taught in the O.T. Time and space does not allow a complete teaching on the context of the word "world" as used in Jn 3:16.

2. God's word is very clear that He does not change, Mal 3:6, Ps 102:27, Jm 13:17. since God does not change, it must mean that the God of the O.T. is the same God of the N.T. and He has remained the same througout all of time.

That being the case, how is it possible for God to love all people when we read in:

Ps 5:5-6: The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Hatest is the Hebrew word "sane"- to hate, to hate personaly, utterly.

Abhor is the Hebrew word "ta'ab"- to loath, detest.

Ps 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Hateth is also the Hebrew word "sane"

Notice that in these verses we do find the words to read that "God hates the sins of the workers of iniquity or the wicked.

since God does not, nor ever has changed, it must be said that God has always hated and will always hate the workers of iniquity and the wicked. How can God possible love those He hates? It is interesting to see that if you look up every verse that mentions the "wicked", there is never any hope given to the wicked.

3. Agapao and agape do not mean, nor have ever been defined as meaning "unconditional love." That concept is not found anywhere in Scripture, rather, "unconditional love" is an invention of man. Jesus never taught that the Father's love is uncondintially given to all people. When we look at,

Jn 14:21,

He that hath my commandments, and keepth them, he it is that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father...

Jn 14:23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him.

Hmm, it seems that according to Jesus, there are some conditions in place before one can be said to be loved by God.

Well, thats enough from me. Thank you for your time.

[WillingToDie]

1. The Bible does not teach that God loves everybody!

This great lie has been presented by countless people. Amazingly, this huge false teaching has been established from only ONE single verse in the bible! That verse, of course is Jn 3:16. How astounding this is. There are no other verses cited by people to back up this claim. No references from any other N.T. book nor nary a verse quoted from the O.T. are ever used to validate this belief. Yet, the claim that God loves all people has been repeated millions of times.

I ask anyone to show me other verses that state that God loves all people. As all of you know, or should know, no one can present something as a bible doctrine from just one single verse and the concept has to have also been taught in the O.T. Time and space does not allow a complete teaching on the context of the word "world" as used in Jn 3:16.

You're kidding, right?

I Timothy 2:3. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (NIV)

If nothing else, that shows that he loves everybody, since he wants them to all be saved.

[Floatingaxe]

Romans 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Psalm 17:7

Show the wonder of your great love, you who save by your right hand those who take refuge in you from their foes.

Just the fact that God commands us to love our enemies also is prime evidence that He also loves His enemies--those who are lost!

Luke 6:35

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Yours is precisely the pattern we find in those who eschew the assembling of themselves with other believers...such aberrant beliefs go unchecked and serve to cause the stumbling and downfall of many, including themselves. Wrong spiritual thinking uncorrected leads to strangeness. Be a sheep, not a goat!

[simpletruth]

Romans 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Psalm 17:7

Show the wonder of your great love, you who save by your right hand those who take refuge in you from their foes.

Just the fact that God commands us to love our enemies also is prime evidence that He also loves His enemies--those who are lost!

Luke 6:35

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Yours is precisely the pattern we find in those who eschew the assembling of themselves with other believers...such aberrant beliefs go unchecked and serve to cause the stumbling and downfall of many, including themselves. Wrong spiritual thinking uncorrected leads to strangeness. Be a sheep, not a goat!

Hmm, I do not recall attacking anybody on this board. Even though there are many who believe different than myself, I have not written anything negative about them. I will say it is obivious that you are one who has not studuied and you simply follow the company line.

I asked that you address my post using scripture. Not one of your verses state that God loves the world! Not one. Just because YOU say a verse means "this or that" does not make it true.

I suggest you learn how to study, then do some study before you continue to show your lack of knowledge. You should also include studying the original Greek and Hebrew words that the Bible was written in. In case you are not aware, our English bibles are translations and without studying the original words, it is all too easy to miss what was actually meant by the writers. I use the King James, but even in there are many examples of bad translations.

Are you not aware that anytime the words "we" or "us" are used in the N.T., they strictly refer to believers? You do not know this? Hmm, you should study. Therefore, Rm 5:8 does not teach that God loves everybody in the world.

Of course, you make no mention of Ps 5:5, 11:5. Without one comment directed towards me, can you please explain what is being said in those vereses? Please? And can you please show even one verse from the O.T. that teaches that God loves all people?

Thank you for calling me a goat. So sweet of you. since you mention sheep and goats, show me where the Bible teaches that a goat can become a sheep?

Jn 10:26-27:

But ye believe not, because ye are NOT of MY SHEEP, as I said to you,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Using logic, it is all too evident that one must be a SHEEP first in order to hear the voice of Jesus, not that goats hear, decide to believe and then become sheep. If one is a goat, then that one CANNOT hear the voice of Jesus

[7cworldwide]

I Timothy 2:3. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (NIV)

If nothing else, that shows that he loves everybody, since he wants them to all be saved.

For your consideration: http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.as.../file/99756.qna

Shalom,

[WillingToDie]

I Timothy 2:3. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (NIV)

If nothing else, that shows that he loves everybody, since he wants them to all be saved.

For your consideration: http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.as.../file/99756.qna

Shalom,

The point was meant to show that God loves everyone, not that he will save everyone.