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Calvin vs. Arminius


Ovedya

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?  

353 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      72
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70


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Guest mcm42
but rather that the depravity which sin has produced in human nature extends to the total personality. No area of human nature remains unaffected.

We are sinful in disposition so that even attempts at righteousness are tainted with sin. Human freedom to respond to God and to make moral choices is therefore impaired. But God is gracious and through his indwelling Spirit, the inclination to sin can be overcome by the inclination to live according to the will and purpose of God

My question is this. You say you are more wesley...

How does a person whose entire person is tainted with sin, and his ability to make moral choices is impaired, choose Christ?

So simply put, do you believe that God chooses us and draws us, because left to ourselves we are "totally incapable" or do you believe that man can choose Christ, without the help of the Spirit?

I am 100% calvinist. I found it intriguing that you said you were more "wesley" and then quoted, now twice and in detail, The very "T" in Calvin's Tulip. And that "T" we will all agree influences greatly all other sides to this issue.

So is man so depraved that He is incapable of choosing Christ, unless God chooses him first, or can a man of His own accord choose Christ...

Just looking to see where you stand, that's all Thanks... so far I like your posts, very accurate..

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Depravity

The terms

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Thank you very much, but i must say that I forgot to sight my help for that. It is our doctrinal book that The Salvation Army puts out when potential members are learning about our doctrines. I apologize. I did not mean to take credit for that. I decided instead of trying to explain that I could research it and give you a more solid answer that does reflect what I do believe.

Here is the forward.

This book is about the faith of the Salvationist (term for member). It is based upon the eleven Articles of Faith which, since 1878, have been the basis of The Salvation Army's witness to the Christian gospel.

Some may wonder why Salvationists place such emphasis upon a written statement of faith. After all, they are people who rightly maintain that a Christian is one who enters trustfully into a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and is born again of the Holy Spirit. They emphasise that faith is a personal affair, often springing from an experience of God's grace that is beyond the reach of definition or analysis. They may well be suspicious of any attempt to reduce this life-changing encounter to a form of words on a page.

Yet without words, the experience fails to be named, clarified or shared. Faith is not only personal: it has a public face. The earliest Christians acknowledged one another in the simple confession: 'Jesus is Lord' (1 Corinthians 12:3). This was their creed. As they shared it, they grounded their personal experience in the risen Christ, verified one another's experience and called upon the world to acknowledge the lordship of Christ. It was from these biblical beginnings that the creeds of the Church grew to be authoritative statements of the Christian faith. They have a long history, some of which is referred to within these pages.

Doctrine is the teaching of the Church. It is an expanded explanation of faith, founded on Scripture and developed from a basic creed. The eleven Articles of Faith are an expression both of personal faith and of a common vision.

They are consistent with the classical Christian creeds and identify Salvationists as members of the universal Church. They also express the fundamental evangelical convictions of Wesleyanism, the branch of the Church out of which The Salvation Army grew. Salvationists emphasise in their doctrine and in their mission the universal call to personal salvation, the challenge to holiness and the need for evangelical zeal.

The Eleven Doctrines have remained essentially unchanged in a rapidly changing world. A number of Handbooks of Doctrine have, however, been produced, the most recent of which was published in 1969. It was decided that the time was fitting for a further explanatory volume.

This book differs from its predecessors in a number of ways. It is narrative in form, so that teaching is presented in short paragraphs, rather than point by point. This should enable the progression of thought to be clearly seen and allow for flexible use in both study groups and the classroom. The narrative style means that we examine the truths of our faith on two levels, both as the work of God in history which accomplished our salvation, and as the record of our own journey of faith, from sin through to salvation and holiness. The narrative approach is reflected, too, in the Handbook's title: Salvation Story.

Salvationists base their understanding of doctrine on the witness of the Bible, the living word of God. Our Articles of Faith make that clear, and therefore this book seeks to be faithful to Scripture. Scripture references appear throughout and can usually be found at the end of the section to which they relate. References are selective rather than comprehensive and allow students to research those that are helpful and to discover others for themselves.

This Handbook is deliberately concise. Its purpose is to provide a testament to the faith that is shared by Salvationists all over the world. For that reason, it is written throughout in the first person plural. It is hoped that Salvationists will recognise within it a commonly understood approach to Christian truth and identify themselves with it. Furthermore, it is not intended to be exclusive to Salvationists. It allows them to declare what they believe and to invite others to share the same experience of saving grace.

This book, with its accompanying Study Guide and other publications, will provide a useful resource for all Salvationists, including new converts and officer-cadets, in their study of the fundamentals of our faith.

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mcm

I thank you for your input. I really like to ask myself questions. It is important to me to know what I believe and why I believe it. I said Wesley because that is what influence the founder of the Salvation Army back in the day. But I also said neither, because personally I beleive that both Calvin and Armenian go to the extreme. I didn't say not any of thier ideas, but I could give a percentage, because even within their statements I differ somewhat. I love going into this. I love to be challenged to think outside the box. The moment that you become so convinced that all you think and believe is un taintable it becomes a little scary. One thing I have learned, going through seminary and through life is, God can always teach you. I love to see new aspects of God and what he has for me. You have even taught me alot just being on this board less than a week. I am excited at the possibilities. I think of God as a finely cut jewel, you turn it the slightest bit, or you move a inch and it looks more beautiful than before, it shows you a whole new spectrum of reflection and light. My God is my Jewel.

God bless you all. Please know that I do not claim to know everything about my church or Christianity as a whole, but I strive to know more each day. thank you for your role in that.

Michelle

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Guest mcm42
I love to see new aspects of God and what he has for me. You have even taught me alot just being on this board less than a week. I am excited at the possibilities. I think of God as a finely cut jewel, you turn it the slightest bit, or you move a inch and it looks more beautiful than before, it shows you a whole new spectrum of reflection and light. My God is my Jewel

Wow, very powerful, and accurate...

May God bless your study, any questions on what I believe, read my posts or feel free to ask me...

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I agree with some that said neither. I am a Christian and more Wesleyan than anything, if a label is to be made. This is what I believe.

I believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God; and that they only constitute the divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

I believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect - the Creator, Preserver and Governor of all things - and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

I believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost -undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.

I believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the divine and human natures are united; so that he is truly and properly God, and truly and properly man.

I believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency but, by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness; and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has, by his suffering and death, made an atonement for the whole world, so that whosoever will may be saved.

I believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.

I believe that we are justified by grace, through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ; and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.

I believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.

I believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be 'wholly sanctified', and that their 'whole spirit and soul and body' may 'be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

This is what I believe.

:P that is also what I believe! But you knew that Shelby! (we go to the same church) I really think, though, that there are a hundred points on which christians can get all bent out of shape about and go around in circles arguing. I don't believe Jesus wants us dividing ourselves in this manner. (not that this is happening here, but it's something to be aware we don't get wrapped up in, kwim?)

The idea of the "elect" is something that I have a hard time with. I tend to feel more like LadyC has said. I always wonder what then is the point of the great commission given by Jesus to the apostles to "go into all the world" if God had already "selected" those he would save. Sounds like we were being sent on a wild goose chase if that was how it was. I don't think God is in the business of sending people on wild goose chases. Pehaps I'm not understanding the whole concept there or, like someone said earlier, I'm getting it out of context. :P

Anyway, pretty good discussion here! :P

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Guest mcm42

This is a great question Kelsc. Why evangelize if God has it all chosen... I had this same struggle to begin with.

Two answers that seem to satisfy my heart and mind... God Commanded it, period, that should be enough but it's often not. Also, as far as depravity goes... If God didn't elect... why witness... cause no one would come to Christ if he didn't choose anyone!

So we are encouarged that not only are we commanded to evangelize, or preach, we are also guaranteed that our ministries will be successful because God has chosen some.

that's how I see it...

Hope this makes sense... God Bless

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This is a great question Kelsc. Why evangelize if God has it all chosen... I had this same struggle to begin with.

Two answers that seem to satisfy my heart and mind... God Commanded it, period, that should be enough but it's often not. Also, as far as depravity goes... If God didn't elect... why witness... cause no one would come to Christ if he didn't choose anyone!

So we are encouarged that not only are we commanded to evangelize, or preach, we are also guaranteed that our ministries will be successful because God has chosen some.

that's how I see it...

Hope this makes sense... God Bless

Two answers that seem to satisfy my heart and mind... God Commanded it, period, that should be enough but it's often not.

Absolutely! I totally agree in envangelizing and witnessing! Yes!

BUT.....I am a little confused with this.....

Also, as far as depravity goes... If God didn't elect... why witness... cause no one would come to Christ if he didn't choose anyone! 

I'm not quite following. Christ chose the entire world when he took up the cross*. (John 3:16) We witness and evangelize so that others may choose to come to the Father through Christ, the Son. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life noone comes to the Father but through me". We don't come to the Father because our name is on some special list, we, meaning ALL people jew and gentile, come to the Father by hearing the Word, coming to Christ, repenting and turning from our sins, believing on Him, having faith. One of doctrines of my church says

"We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has, by his suffering and death, made an atonement for the whole world, so that whosoever will may be saved."

* context: samaritans who Jesus spoke to and they believed said this to a woman who testified so she would know they were not believers because of what she said, but because of what Jesus said and who He was, John 4:42, "then they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world"

The samaritans were able to be saved because they believed in Christ and that He was to save THE WHOLE WORLD. At that time it would have been the furthest thing from ANYONE'S imagination that samaritans could have been chosen by God for anything! They were hated! But because Jesus made an atonement for everyone, they too were covered by his blood and forgiven and saved.

I guess that's where I struggle with the concept that there is this list somewhere and only those on that list (regardless of opportunity they've had to accept Christ and whether or not they have accepted Him) will go to Heaven. God is just and merciful his promises of forgiveness and salvation are for all who believe and accept it.

It's entirely possible that I am misunderstanding what you wrote too! (I do that sometimes, lol!) If so, please explain again so I have a clearer picture of what you were saying! Thanks! :laugh:

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All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

If this is the case then there is no choice, it means everything is pre-determined and man has no choice in the matter.

Now the question remains does man have free will or not? If god is in complete control then the calvinistic view does stand. If not then it's not 100% correct.

So people which is it? Do we have free will or not?

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Ater reading all of the posts here, I have a question:

Why are we discussing the relative merits of Calvinism and Arminianism? Maybe we could just study the Bible and do what it says. For some in here, that doesn't seem to be good enough. Why?

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