Calvin vs. Arminius

[Axxman]

I personally wish people would read the bible and draw their own conclusions without having to wear the lable of some fallible mans name. In other words I hate "isms".

An interesting piece about John Calvin..

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm

That was actually a biased and historically inaccurate 'piece' about John Calvin...but whatever. Say what you will, but no Hindu would have dared prayed a public prayer in Geneva...unlike here in America where we are now opening our congress with prayers to false gods.

Also, people who read the bible and 'draw their own conclusions' is why we have so many 'christians' running around with no idea about what God's word really says.

[Rhonda Lou]

Actually, I'm replying to the whole page. The discussion seems to now be focused on whether or not "all" means "all". The basic concept is that some say that "all" means believers, and others say "all" means "all". The ranking theory in the "all means all" crowd is that God is a loving God and would not create any for damnation. The working theory among the "all" does not mean "all" is that God is sovereign and elects whom He wills. I'm still trying to make up my mind, but I'm leaning toward the "all does NOT mean all" crowd. The ranking theory among the "all means all" crowd is that God loves everybody so much that "my God would never be so mean." My problem with that is that there is a precedent for God being "so mean" -- and I LOVE God!! Before I go any further, let me state categorically that I have sworn that God is sovereign -- and loving -- and has good purpuses that I do not always understand (I guess that is why HE is God), but I told myself a long time ago that I want to love the REAL God, not my image of Him. I do not know the purpose for the following verses, but I DO know they exist in the Bible.

18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. 19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Joshua 11:18-20)

The commentary for the above verses says that God turned the Canaanites hearts to fight in order that Israel might be His judging instrument to destroy them. They were willfully guilty of rejecting the true God with consequent great wickedness, and even as unfit to remain in the Lord as vomit spewed out of the mouth. (Leviticus 18:24-25says, 24

[BurnForChrist]

I do not believe that John Calvin believed for a second that God brings people kicking and screaming into the Kingdom

He doesn't have to, He's very persuasive.

who quoted from John 3:16 up there?? My bible states something different What bible are you using?

My version14~~~And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so the must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever beliveth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever beliveth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT be saved oh oh I think I may have misread something. salvation depends on our willingness to say yes Lord Yes... We send ourselves to Hell not God. He did not create hell for man....oh well

While yes we choose him, its revealed to us in scripture that our "choice" is really not our "choice" but GODs SOVEREIGN WILL behind our choice.

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Where was Jacob and Esau's choice? Verse 9 above shows us GODs grace according to election, not our works, not anything we do, it says that "before they were born, or did any good or evil" so GOD did not look at there lives in order to make his election, it was by his sovereign will (Unconditionally)

Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." In this text we see CLEARLY the LORD's sovereignty in Pharaoh, that he raised him up for one reason that he MIGHT GET GLORY TO HIS NAME, so therefore he showed his power in Him and destroyed him.

Ephesians 1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

We see here at the beginning of this New Testament letter that GOD choose us who believe, those who have believed, and those who will believe in HIM before the foundation of the world (we are his elect), to be predestined us to adoptions as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Now I say these things not to cause strife or arguement, only that you would see his glorious sovereignty in that He can do ANYTHING according to the good pleasure of his will. Now does he will for all men to be saved and repent? (1 Timothy 2:3-4) Yes he does! And so do I, I wish that EVERYONE would be saved, but I know that wont happen. "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?” “ Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” Romans 11:34-35

Edited August 30, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[kjn]

[kjn]

L - The doctrine of limited atonement is most people's biggest problem with Calvinism, I think. It creates a paradox of God's will and logically implies the doctrine of reprobation. If God is "willing that none should perish" yet predetermines them to a fate of perpetual death by not including them in the covenant with His Son, then we're faced with a problem: either God's love for mankind isn't as passionate as most Christians have been led to believe; or God does not have the power and/or authority to effect His perfect will and Calvinists are, in reality, the ones diminishing His divine sovereignty; or we create an unnecessary paradox of will vs. will. Not only is this doctrine problematic from a philosophical viewpoint, it is counterintuitive for so many who read the gospels.

Spurgeon expresses the trouble I have with universal atonement fairly well in A Defense of Calvinism:

To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!

I believe the verse you quoted is:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Peter is talking to believers. This qualifies the scope of the 'all'.

But if God is not wishing that anyone at all should perish, is he eternally miserable because so many are going to hell and he was impotent to stop it (being limited by man's free will)? Or, is he going to wait for everyone to repent no matter how long it takes? Or, maybe he failed since we know that not everyone will be saved.

My understanding of 2 Peter 3:9 is similar to Matthew 18:12-14. Christ died for his sheep, and God is not willing that these should perish.

Matthew 18:12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

-Neopatriarch

So you're saying you do believe in limited atonement?

[kjn]

As I said earlier, this is a hard pill to swallow, but what I've been told is that man is naturally depraved. God does not make ANYBODY depraved -- we are already in that condition. What God does is miraculously saves those He wills from their depravity, with a grace beyond measure. I've quit asking about others, "Why not them?" and have asked, "Why me?" Little old me, You decided to save. There are others who are more deserving, who could do more for you, who have stronger wills and self-control. Why me? I love Him SO PROFOUNDLY for choosing me!!

None of us knows who is saved, and who is unsaved. NOBODY is saved without hearing the gospel of salvation: that Jesus died as our substitute to pay the penalty for our death curse, and that He rose again to break the power of sin and death, and that, those who believe, He is "in them" and they are "in Him" and His Spirit is in them transforming them. Since we don't know who "the called" are -- it is our DUTY and PRIVILEGE to tell everybody the gospel message -- and leave the rest up the God. He is sovereign. He is in control. I want to love the God of the Bible, and that includes some things I do not necessarily like hearing. Neither did anybody else. In John 6 when He told His apostles this (not the 12, but all who followed Him)"Remember I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." Their reaction to that: "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." (John 6:65-66).

It is not easy to hear. Gut reaction: "OK, Rhonda, you don't like hearing this. Do you have a biblical basis to say it is wrong?" "No, the Bible DOES say it." "Then, Rhonda, are you going to believe it, or reject it simply because you don't like it." "God, I would never reject You. You love me more than any other person could. I don't understand it, and You must have Your reasons out there somewhere, which I may never know, but I DO know that all things work together for good to those who love God; to those who are "The Called", according to YOUR purpose." I DO believe that, and so, yes, I will trust You without all of the answers. When I say I trust Your Word no matter what, that means I trust Your Word no matter what."

I guess it is my hope that all would ask themselves the same questions: Do you not believe because you don't want to, or because the Bible says something else -- without conradicting itself. Would it still be possible for you to love God, even without understanding everything about Him? Has He proven His promises and Word to be true? If He lied about this to make is more conventient for me to believe, what else did He lie about? That is the direction my questioning is going right now.

You love God profoundly because He chose you? Is it any wonder then, that the non-chosen don't claim to love Him? Is it any wonder then, that those who believe their ancestors died without exposure to knowing the Way of salvation, that they wouldn't want to be with the God who set it up that hell is the destiny of their ancestors. Hell forever, unending.

"Is it possible to love God without understanding?" What is love? God is love. God set it up so that people do go to hell. That is love. I don't know that I want to be near that. He defines love and love set it up that there is a hell where people are perpetually tormented, gnashing their teeth, wishing for the slightest drop of water. It goes on and on and on. God set it up. That's love. OK, I can't pretend that I want to be near that love.

[ArtistforChrist]

Kjn,

Do you realize that Hell was NEVER intended originally for People, it was created for the devil and his demons. Man was never meant to go there. But Mankind sinned against a Holy God. Sin MUST be punished,A Holy God cannot abide sin in his presence. Sin can't be swept under the rug and be ignored. Every single persons deserves to go to hell, But God loves us so much that he provided a way. He sent his Son, The Second Person of the Trinity, to DIE for us horrible sinners. The very one who Made us came and lived among us, lived the perfect life we could never live, and died the death we could never die. Then, to give us hope, all those who trust in him, he arose promising that one day we to will rise, uncorroptable. All this is a Free Gift to all who will recieve it. Though, for a Gift to be usefull, it must be accepted and opened, if one rejects a gift, it is no good.

A God that does not punish sin is not holy, if sin is not punished, Justice is not carried out. Someone Like Hitler can do all the things he did and then die in the arms of his lover with no consequences.

a Just God demands a Hell. No one in Hell can cry "FOUL, I don't belong here!" Everyone who choses hell, that right choses hell by rejecting to live by God's Commands, deciding to live the way they chose, will belong there, God is totally Soverign and Just and will not sentence anyone to hell that doesn't deserve it. There are also degrees of punishment in hell, the everyday pagan won't get the same punishment as Hitler or his ilk.

Is God Love? YES, without a doubt, he didn't have to die on that Cross to set People free, but he did it out of Love.

But we can't forget he is also Just, and he will Judge sin rightly.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist <><

[Rhonda Lou]

As I said earlier, this is a hard pill to swallow, but what I've been told is that man is naturally depraved. God does not make ANYBODY depraved -- we are already in that condition. What God does is miraculously saves those He wills from their depravity, with a grace beyond measure. I've quit asking about others, "Why not them?" and have asked, "Why me?" Little old me, You decided to save. There are others who are more deserving, who could do more for you, who have stronger wills and self-control. Why me? I love Him SO PROFOUNDLY for choosing me!!

None of us knows who is saved, and who is unsaved. NOBODY is saved without hearing the gospel of salvation: that Jesus died as our substitute to pay the penalty for our death curse, and that He rose again to break the power of sin and death, and that, those who believe, He is "in them" and they are "in Him" and His Spirit is in them transforming them. Since we don't know who "the called" are -- it is our DUTY and PRIVILEGE to tell everybody the gospel message -- and leave the rest up the God. He is sovereign. He is in control. I want to love the God of the Bible, and that includes some things I do not necessarily like hearing. Neither did anybody else. In John 6 when He told His apostles this (not the 12, but all who followed Him)"Remember I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." Their reaction to that: "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." (John 6:65-66).

It is not easy to hear. Gut reaction: "OK, Rhonda, you don't like hearing this. Do you have a biblical basis to say it is wrong?" "No, the Bible DOES say it." "Then, Rhonda, are you going to believe it, or reject it simply because you don't like it." "God, I would never reject You. You love me more than any other person could. I don't understand it, and You must have Your reasons out there somewhere, which I may never know, but I DO know that all things work together for good to those who love God; to those who are "The Called", according to YOUR purpose." I DO believe that, and so, yes, I will trust You without all of the answers. When I say I trust Your Word no matter what, that means I trust Your Word no matter what."

I guess it is my hope that all would ask themselves the same questions: Do you not believe because you don't want to, or because the Bible says something else -- without conradicting itself. Would it still be possible for you to love God, even without understanding everything about Him? Has He proven His promises and Word to be true? If He lied about this to make is more conventient for me to believe, what else did He lie about? That is the direction my questioning is going right now.

You love God profoundly because He chose you? Is it any wonder then, that the non-chosen don't claim to love Him? Is it any wonder then, that those who believe their ancestors died without exposure to knowing the Way of salvation, that they wouldn't want to be with the God who set it up that hell is the destiny of their ancestors. Hell forever, unending.

"Is it possible to love God without understanding?" What is love? God is love. God set it up so that people do go to hell. That is love. I don't know that I want to be near that. He defines love and love set it up that there is a hell where people are perpetually tormented, gnashing their teeth, wishing for the slightest drop of water. It goes on and on and on. God set it up. That's love. OK, I can't pretend that I want to be near that love.

KJN,

I'm sorry, everything seemed to have gotten moved to "Another Take on Free Will" and I don't remember seeing this. Artist for Christ answered your questions yesterday, and I agree completely with this person.

In response to your direct question about how God could let people go to hell, there is no one who seeks God. The Bible DOES specify that we all intrinsically have knowledge of Him. We can see intelligent design in creaction, accourding t Romans 1. And we have a conscience, according to Romans 2 -- a law to keep. We would easily surmise that if there is a law, there must be a Lawgiver. If we are drawn to that Intelligent Designer and Lawgiver, it is by God, and we are among the chosen. If we are not drawn -- if we are uninterested -- that is not entirely God's fault. As I stated in the other thread, we act on the information we have. God IS in the background working on those He's called, but we don't know His information. (I like Simon and Garfunkel. They have a song called "Slip Sliding Away". In the song, Paul Simon says, 'God only knows, God makes His plan. The information is unavailable to the mortal man. We work our job, collect our pay, believe we are gliding along, when in fact we're slip sliding away". The part I always want to quote is "God only knows...unavailable to the mortal man." It isn't God KEEPING people from hell -- it is God CHOOSING to save some of us. We are still responsible for not seeking Him out. He's given enough evidence to pique our interest,. Does that make any sense?

Yes, I can't get around the fact that He chose Jacob, but not Esau, who was the oldest. But He did not MAKE Esau rebel. Esau knew all about God, he had the same information Jacob did -- he did nothing with it -- God didn't call him. I'm saying that God acts in the lives of those He's called. I don't ask, "Why didn't he choose such and such or so and so, I ask why He chose me? I'm a nobody, who has had an extremely poor track record. I fight addictions, I eventually give them over to Him, He handles them, I get distracted and complacent -- and yet He chose ME!! My love for Him in this is incredible!! I want Him to use me because there other who need to hear the whole gospel. Many have heard the 4 rules of the gospel (we sin, need a Savior, Jesus died for us, belief brings life" so often that it has no impact -- and they never take it personally in their own lives. Even atheists have heard what one must do to be saved -- it's everywhere. But it's not sinking in because the impact has been lost. It is not lost on me, and so I want to be hout there speaking it.

I hope this answers your question here.

Rhonda

[kjn]

Kjn,

Do you realize that Hell was NEVER intended originally for People, it was created for the devil and his demons. Man was never meant to go there. But Mankind sinned against a Holy God. Sin MUST be punished,A Holy God cannot abide sin in his presence. Sin can't be swept under the rug and be ignored. Every single persons deserves to go to hell, But God loves us so much that he provided a way. He sent his Son, The Second Person of the Trinity, to DIE for us horrible sinners. The very one who Made us came and lived among us, lived the perfect life we could never live, and died the death we could never die. Then, to give us hope, all those who trust in him, he arose promising that one day we to will rise, uncorroptable. All this is a Free Gift to all who will recieve it. Though, for a Gift to be usefull, it must be accepted and opened, if one rejects a gift, it is no good.

A God that does not punish sin is not holy, if sin is not punished, Justice is not carried out. Someone Like Hitler can do all the things he did and then die in the arms of his lover with no consequences.

a Just God demands a Hell. No one in Hell can cry "FOUL, I don't belong here!" Everyone who choses hell, that right choses hell by rejecting to live by God's Commands, deciding to live the way they chose, will belong there, God is totally Soverign and Just and will not sentence anyone to hell that doesn't deserve it. There are also degrees of punishment in hell, the everyday pagan won't get the same punishment as Hitler or his ilk.

Is God Love? YES, without a doubt, he didn't have to die on that Cross to set People free, but he did it out of Love.

But we can't forget he is also Just, and he will Judge sin rightly.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist <><

Did not God create Lucifer and all the angels? He set it up so that there is a hell that is unending, and some beings that He created will eternally be there. The created seem to be "disposable" to hell. It's torment forever. That's why the topic of choice is so relevant. If before the foundations of the world, He chose the select humans to be adopted as sons, did He not send the others to hell? He can do whatever He wants, and He does. The love of Jesus dying or any other statement or demonstration of God's love doesn't negate the statement that there is a hell where created beings will be forever in agony and torment. Do I want to escape hell? I don't want to be there, but neither do I want to be with the God who set it up. And our existence continues forever. and what I want or feel doesn't matter anyway if it's already predetermined. That's my initial response.

[kjn]

Rhonda wrote:

KJN,

I'm sorry, everything seemed to have gotten moved to "Another Take on Free Will" and I don't remember seeing this. Artist for Christ answered your questions yesterday, and I agree completely with this person.

In response to your direct question about how God could let people go to hell, there is no one who seeks God. The Bible DOES specify that we all intrinsically have knowledge of Him. We can see intelligent design in creaction, accourding t Romans 1. And we have a conscience, according to Romans 2 -- a law to keep. We would easily surmise that if there is a law, there must be a Lawgiver. If we are drawn to that Intelligent Designer and Lawgiver, it is by God, and we are among the chosen. If we are not drawn -- if we are uninterested -- that is not entirely God's fault. As I stated in the other thread, we act on the information we have. God IS in the background working on those He's called, but we don't know His information. (I like Simon and Garfunkel. They have a song called "Slip Sliding Away". In the song, Paul Simon says, 'God only knows, God makes His plan. The information is unavailable to the mortal man. We work our job, collect our pay, believe we are gliding along, when in fact we're slip sliding away". The part I always want to quote is "God only knows...unavailable to the mortal man." It isn't God KEEPING people from hell -- it is God CHOOSING to save some of us. We are still responsible for not seeking Him out. He's given enough evidence to pique our interest,. Does that make any sense?

Romans 3:11 "There is none who seeks for God" and yet you say 'We are still responsible for not seeking Him out.'

"If we are not drawn -- if we are uninterested -- that is not entirely God's fault." It doesn't matter whose fault, because if you are chosen, you're chosen. If you're not, you're not and you're in hell forever. it's not about blame, it's about what it says to the created.

Yes, I can't get around the fact that He chose Jacob, but not Esau, who was the oldest. But He did not MAKE Esau rebel. Esau knew all about God, he had the same information Jacob did -- he did nothing with it -- God didn't call him. I'm saying that God acts in the lives of those He's called. I don't ask, "Why didn't he choose such and such or so and so, I ask why He chose me? I'm a nobody, who has had an extremely poor track record. I fight addictions, I eventually give them over to Him, He handles them, I get distracted and complacent -- and yet He chose ME!! My love for Him in this is incredible!! I want Him to use me because there other who need to hear the whole gospel. Many have heard the 4 rules of the gospel (we sin, need a Savior, Jesus died for us, belief brings life" so often that it has no impact -- and they never take it personally in their own lives. Even atheists have heard what one must do to be saved -- it's everywhere. But it's not sinking in because the impact has been lost. It is not lost on me, and so I want to be hout there speaking it.

I hope this answers your question here.

Rhonda