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Out of Order?


tsth

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I wonder, if women's standards changed in regard to the types of men that they would marry, would men's standards change? Do they become what women desire?

What do you think? If our daughters were brought up with more inner integrity, and if they valued their own virtue again, would it have an effect on men?

In His Love,

Suzanne

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This is another one of those "male-supremacy/women-shut-up, get-the-paper, and-do-the-laundry" threads, which is easily dispelled by quoting the book of JUDGES, and quite frankly I'm sick of it as I'm sure the Lord is.

Judges 4:4

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

?! You mean a WOMAN did the same job as men?!

Yes. read your Bible.

Ah yes . . . Deborah . . . the poster child of the egalitarian movement. Sometimes it seems like the entire case for women pastors rests upon this woman. It's sad really.

This link contains a pretty good discussion of Deborah:

http://www.visionforumministries.org/issue...pport_a_wo.aspx

Also notice that Judges 4:4 does not actually call Deborah a 'judge'. It says 'she judged Israel'. Further, it does not appear that people were compelled to come before her as you would expect in the judicial system, but rather 'the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment.' It was voluntary. No doubt she had some expertise and she was a prophetess, but it seems unlikely that she had any governing authority. She was probably someone to whom people went for conflict resolution or guidance counseling. Her judgments were not legally binding.

-Neopatriarch

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Not to mention, that the whole point of the story of Deborah, was that the order was "out of order". The story was not advocating women leadership, it was a rebuke of the men, for not stepping up to their god-given roles. We tend to forget that the whole point was "disorder", and that the disorder, WASN'T good. It wasn't a "pat on the back" story. It was a rebuke, and yet women want to use it as standard rule of conduct? It wasn't. It was an exception not meant to be a rule.

In His Love,

Suzanne

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We can not force our husbands to obey God's commands, be the head of the household and:

Ephesians 5

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church

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This is another one of those "male-supremacy/women-shut-up, get-the-paper, and-do-the-laundry" threads, which is easily dispelled by quoting the book of JUDGES, and quite frankly I'm sick of it as I'm sure the Lord is.

Judges 4:4

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

?! You mean a WOMAN did the same job as men?!

Yes. read your Bible.

Judges 4:9

And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Quoting Judges does not "easily" dispell the notion of male headship. making doctrin out of historical narrative is never a good practice

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This is another one of those "male-supremacy/women-shut-up, get-the-paper, and-do-the-laundry" threads, which is easily dispelled by quoting the book of JUDGES, and quite frankly I'm sick of it as I'm sure the Lord is.

Judges 4:4

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

?! You mean a WOMAN did the same job as men?!

Yes. read your Bible.

Judges 4:9

And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Quoting Judges does not "easily" dispell the notion of male headship. making doctrin out of historical narrative is never a good practice

:thumbsup: Making a doctrin out of two verses is not good practice.

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Thank you Butero. :blink:

I wonder what a difference it would make if wives were told this from the beginning, if they actually believed it, and applied it. Submit, even if they do not obey God themselves. Submission is our responsibility, no matter what. Just like Sarah.

*edit* Even if our husband's do not accept God's order, we still should!

Yes..Amen...just because someone else does it wrong does not make it right for me to do it wrong..

Learning to be a husband can be like learning to ride a bike..

sometimes you have to fall down and scrape your knees..

and if you have a tandem bike the one behind you gets scraped up too..

but it is all good if you learn from the experience ..

If hubby insists on riding over broken glass then let him..

After a few flat tires perhaps the Lord will get through to him that he needs to watch what he is doing..

The family is suffering because they are spending so much "money" on "flat tires"...

and if I am backpedaling it may well be my fault the bike ends up on glass...

Gosh I hope you get the drift....

(and I am not discussing extremes.. If hubby is abusive leave...)

and me as a wife...

I have to tell you I think of Saul when God said "is it not hard for you to kick against the pricks"

Is it not hard for me when I will not submit to the yoke of wife ..

Oh my it is hard....

I came from a home where my dad would not allow my mom out of the house without him..and no one was allowed in...

My husband came from a home where his mom was a very dominant force in the household..very open..

After we were married the thing that I liked about him most (how laid back he was)was the thing that I ended up disliking about him the most..

sigh...

We have both changed..but not before a lot of grief...Mercy!!!

I would rather submit now than have my way in issues..

I do not want any more scars from my backpedaling...

I would rather just let him be the driver and if there are scrapes then I am not guilty and I forgive because I love him and we heal and go on...after 40 years...

God is good..

Pro 30:21 Under three things the earth quakes, and under four it is not able to bear up:

Pro 30:22 for a servant when he reigns; and a fool when he is filled with food;

Pro 30:23 for a hateful woman when she is married; and a servant girl that is heir to her mistress.

Pro 19:13 A foolish son is ruin to his father, and the quarreling of a wife is a never-ending dripping.

So I need to stop being a hateful drip...

(sometimes I misplace humor..if I have ..forgive.. :blink: )

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Thank you Butero. :blink:

I wonder what a difference it would make if wives were told this from the beginning, if they actually believed it, and applied it. Submit, even if they do not obey God themselves. Submission is our responsibility, no matter what. Just like Sarah.

*edit* Even if our husband's do not accept God's order, we still should!

Yes..Amen...just because someone else does it wrong does not make it right for me to do it wrong..

Learning to be a husband can be like learning to ride a bike..

sometimes you have to fall down and scrape your knees..

and if you have a tandem bike the one behind you gets scraped up too..

but it is all good if you learn from the experience ..

If hubby insists on riding over broken glass then let him..

After a few flat tires perhaps the Lord will get through to him that he needs to watch what he is doing..

The family is suffering because they are spending so much "money" on "flat tires"...

and if I am backpedaling it may well be my fault the bike ends up on glass...

Gosh I hope you get the drift....

(and I am not discussing extremes.. If hubby is abusive leave...)

and me as a wife...

I have to tell you I think of Saul when God said "is it not hard for you to kick against the pricks"

Is it not hard for me when I will not submit to the yoke of wife ..

Oh my it is hard....

I came from a home where my dad would not allow my mom out of the house without him..and no one was allowed in...

My husband came from a home where his mom was a very dominant force in the household..very open..

After we were married the thing that I liked about him most (how laid back he was)was the thing that I ended up disliking about him the most..

sigh...

We have both changed..but not before a lot of grief...Mercy!!!

I would rather submit now than have my way in issues..

I do not want any more scars from my backpedaling...

I would rather just let him be the driver and if there are scrapes then I am not guilty and I forgive because I love him and we heal and go on...after 40 years...

God is good..

Pro 30:21 Under three things the earth quakes, and under four it is not able to bear up:

Pro 30:22 for a servant when he reigns; and a fool when he is filled with food;

Pro 30:23 for a hateful woman when she is married; and a servant girl that is heir to her mistress.

Pro 19:13 A foolish son is ruin to his father, and the quarreling of a wife is a never-ending dripping.

So I need to stop being a hateful drip...

(sometimes I misplace humor..if I have ..forgive.. :blink: )

AMEN, tah! Beautifully and concisely written!

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This is another one of those "male-supremacy/women-shut-up, get-the-paper, and-do-the-laundry" threads, which is easily dispelled by quoting the book of JUDGES, and quite frankly I'm sick of it as I'm sure the Lord is.

Judges 4:4

And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

?! You mean a WOMAN did the same job as men?!

Yes. read your Bible.

Judges 4:9

And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Quoting Judges does not "easily" dispell the notion of male headship. making doctrin out of historical narrative is never a good practice

:blink: Making a doctrin out of two verses is not good practice.

I have far more than two verses to show male/female neutrality.

You are the ones who make a doctrine out of ONE VERSE!, and really no verse at all, because when you look at the entire context, Paul said, "All of you be in submission to one another."

Be very careful with your accusations. We have used many more than one verse to support God's order.

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Grace to yoou,

WSB,

Settle down a little bit will ya? :blink::blink:

Please do not pull this thread off course. If you desire to open this subject in another thread so be it. However deliberately derailing the topic will not be allowed. You can debate repsectfully without the accusations.

Peace,

Dave

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