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Debate on the Biblical view of Universal Salvation


Matthitjah

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Greetings Saint's and those interested,

This will be a debate between Shiloh357 and Samuel Cripps about the Biblical merits, or not, of Universal Salvation.

Here are the rules;

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

2) Time to reply will not be a consideration. However, please be considerate enough to at least try to reply in a timely manner, or otherwise concede the discussion.

3) This is not a "win/lose" discussion. The nature of a debate is to argue your points clearly and to the best of your ability. Nobody is right or wrong. Even though you may use the words "right" and "wrong" in the process of disputing a point, the purpose of debate is to get your point across, and support that point with evidence. It is up to the reader to decide who's argument is more weighty.

4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

Let's pray for God's TRUTH to be revealed through this discussion.

Peace,

Dave

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Guest shiloh357

I feel this will be profitable debate for both Mr. Cripps and myself and I welcome him to the soapbox for what I believe will be an interesting exchange of views.

At the start, I think it would be helpful in order for me to understand my opponents position if I can ask some questions just for the sake of clarification. We are dealing with the one of the most, if the most singularly defining element of Christianity: Salvation and how it is procured, so I think it would be helpful to know where my opponent stands on specific biblical issues that bear directly on Salvation.

  • What is your view on the relationship between Jesus, the Father, and Holy Spirit?
  • Who, or what do you believe Jesus to be?
  • What do you believe about Jesus Resurrection? Was it a physical resurrection?
  • What do you believe specifically about the Holy Spirit? Who is He?

In the context of this debate,
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Guest shiloh357
QUOTE

What is your view on the relationship between Jesus, the Father, and Holy Spirit?

Who, or what do you believe Jesus to be?

What do you believe about Jesus Resurrection? Was it a physical resurrection?

What do you believe specifically about the Holy Spirit? Who is He?

I agree with Worthy's Statement of Faith regarding the above matters.

Huh-uh. I want you to tell me what you believe, specifically about each. That is not hard to do. Please provide an answer for each one.

QUOTE

QUOTE

In the context of this debate,

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Guest shiloh357
Shiloh,

I will try to tersely answer your questions to your satisfaction.

QUOTE

What is your view on the relationship between Jesus, the Father, and Holy Spirit?

I believe that the three are one God.

QUOTE

Who, or what do you believe Jesus to be?

I believe He is the Son of God and our Saviour.

QUOTE

What do you believe about Jesus Resurrection? Was it a physical resurrection?

Yes, I believe it was physical.

QUOTE

What do you believe specifically about the Holy Spirit? Who is He?

I believe He is God. I really don't know what specifics you are looking for. I suppose I could write a book on what I believe specifically about the Holy Spirit, so please narrow down your questions if you are not satisfied with my answer.

Thanks. :emot-hug: One other thing, just as a matter of clarification: Do you believe that Jesus was and is, God?

QUOTE

Well, I think we need to look at the word "reconcile" for a second. "Reconcile" does not mean the same thing as "save."

You cannot have one without the other, as the following passage demonstrates.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14

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Guest shiloh357
QUOTE

There is no Scriptural example of a person in hell getting a second chance at salvation. In fact, none of the types or shadows in the Old Testament, nor the parables of Jesus indicate that those who die in sin will get a second chance.

Doesn't Isaiah 60:11 and Revelation 21:24-26 indicate that people will continue to enter into the gates of the New Jerusalem from the outside? Aren't we told that the outside of the City is reserved for the ungodly? Doesn't this suggest that the ungodly somehow become purified and fit for the presence of God?

Not at all. Isaiah 60 is talking about the Messianic Kingdom of Christ on earth. Sinners will still be here and will still be unregenerate and will eventually rebel against Christ when Satan is released from the pit after 1,000 years of Christ's reign. Revelation 21: 24-26 is talking about the New Heavens and New Earth, an age where where sin will no longer exist. There is no mention of the ungodly being anywhere on earth in Rev. 21.

You are using two Scriptures that speak to two different events.

QUOTE

I am specifically referring to those who stubbornly reject Christ's offer of salvation and who die in that condition. How does God save them if they stubbornly refuse the offer and even die in that state of rejection, without violating their free will?

Like I said, my position is that the means of salvation does not change with death. God will resurrect the unrighteous dead and they will again have the opportunity to freely repent.

And this is specifically mentioned where, in the Bible?

QUOTE

But "forgiveness" is not what God ultimately wants for us. If it was just a matter of being forgiven, Heaven would be full of nothing but forgiven sinners still running from God.

I agree, and I never suggested otherwise. My point in mentioning God's eternally forgiving nature is that as long as God's mercy remains, there is the opportunity for repentance and salvation.

I am sorry but Revelation 20: 11-15 does not bear that out:

Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 20:11-15)

That is the end of the chapter and the next chapter goes directly into the New Heavens and New Earth. No mention is made of a second chance. God's judgement precludes a second chance. He provides every opportunity in THIS life to either accept or reject His gift of grace.

QUOTE

That is why it is something that must be accepted in this life.

This does not follow from what you wrote above; it is a non-sequitir.

No, it is not and I explained why. When you enter into eternity under the law and without Christ, that is the condition you are judged in. You can either be judged in this life as "righteous" by accepting Christ or you can wait and be judged "unrighteous" after you enter eternity without Christ. There is no amnesty, no second chances.

QUOTE

When you enter eternity without Jesus living inside you, you enter into eternity under the law as a member of Adam's race. When you enter into eternity in Christ, you enter into eternity under grace. You get one life to make your decision. Every minute that passes in this life without Christ is just another minute closer to hell and an eternal separation from God. The terror of hell is not purifcatory. It is not temporary. It is the tragic and final destination of all those who die rejecting God's free gift of eternal life.

This is the subject of the debate, isn't it? The possibility of post-mortem repentance. Your above assertions are merely a restating of your position, and as such constitute neither evidence nor an argument.

I tthought it was a rather good argument because it hits at the core of the issue.

I would note though, that the onus is on you to demonstrate the purificatory nature of hell as well as it temporal status.

QUOTE

That does not mean it is eternally available.

Are you suggesting that God will always be merciful, but His mercy will not always be available to certain people?

I am not suggesting it, I am stating that outright. God's mercy is everlasting ONLY to those who accept it and appropriate it.

Nowhere in the Bible is God's mercy ever seen as being extended for an unlimited, indefinite period of time.

Didn't you just say that "God's mercy will never end"? In any case, the Bible is very clear that God's mercy is everlasting:

Psalm 100:5 For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.

that only speaks of the nature of his mercy not its availability.

QUOTE

There is point at which stubborn refusal of God's mercy and lovingkindness will ultimately place you outside the possibility of redemption.

It remains for you to give some Scriptural and/or logical support for these assertions. I look forward to the evidence.

Rev. 21: 11-15.
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Guest shiloh357

Hell is Eternal

My opponent believes that the concept of an eternal Hell where those who reject Christ will spend eternity in torment is not a biblical concept.

Once a person dies without Christ, they have placed themselves, forever, outside the possibility of redemption. He has asked me for evidence.

The evidence is the eternalality of hell which is expressed in the Scriptures. Following are Scriptures which demonstrate the eternality of Hell.

It is a clear evidence of God's righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God's kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength, in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.

(2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)

Now I want to remind you, though you know all these things: the Lord, having first of all saved a people out of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe; and He has kept, with eternal chains in darkness for the judgment of the great day, angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling. In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as they did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

(Jude 1:5-7)

These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumn--fruitless, twice dead, pulled out by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever! (Jude 1:12-13)

In those three passages, the same thing is said three different ways. Hell is eternal.

But that is not the only terminology the Bible uses:

Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:10-12)

For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward. "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. (Mark 9:41-43)

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (Mark 9:47-48)

Even Jesus testifies that Hell is unquenchable. The Bible does not present Hell as temporary or purifcatory. It presents Hell as both eternal and a place of unquenchable fire. There is no symbolic language used. It is written in plain language.

The word "eternal" and "everlasting" are used in the same literal fashion when the Bible speaks of "eternal life" or "everlasting life." We need to be intellectually honest about the use of those terms. If we can accept the eternalality of the Kingdom of God, then we need to accept what the Bible says when it speaks of the eternality of Hell.

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Guest shiloh357
QUOTE

No, you are using dissimilar passages.

Dissimilar? Let's take another look:

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [i say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The Colossians and Ephesians verses are strikingly similar. Both speak of a reconciliation (the abolishing of enmity and the establishing of peace) between man and God (and, by extension, man and his fellow man) which is brought about through the Cross.

They are dissimilar in that their purpose. focus and context is different. I did not say reconciliation to God is not mentioned in that passage. Your initial argument was that you cannot have reconciliation without salvation and that is just not true. The world is reconciled to God The world, however, still as a majority continues to reject Christ. Being reconciled to God does not make one a saint. It simply means that God is at peace with us, as His justice has been satisfied.

Becoming a saint is not what reconciliation brings about. A "saint" is one who is "sanctified." That means we are separated from the world unto God. Being sanctified is a work of the Spirit that occurs ONLY when a person accepts Christ. How are we sanctified??

1. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit ~ Rom 15:16 1 Cor. 611; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2

2. We are sanctified by the body and blood of Jesus ~ Hebrews 10: 10, 14, 13:12

3. We are sanctified by the Word of God ~ Joh. 17:17; Joh. 17:19; Eph. 5:26

QUOTE

We are saved from sin, guilt, and shame. We are saved out of the dominion of sin and death.

Indeed, and it is precisely the removal of enmity, i.e. the undoing of the bonds of sin and death, that reconciliation is all about.

No, you are still confusing terms.

QUOTE

I think I alread did address this.

You did not address the fact that the "all things" of Colossians 1:20 is the same "all things" of v. 15. The text is clear: All that was created by Christ are to be reconciled by Christ. Do you doubt that those in hell were created by Christ?

The fallen angels were created by Christ, but are excluded from excluded from reconcilation according to Jude 1:6.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

(Jude 1:6)

The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be an example of suffering the vengence of eternal fire:

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(Jude 1:7)

Those who persist in wickedness until it is too late, place themselves outside the possibility of redemption when they enter hell:

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

(Matthew 25:40-41)

(snip)

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(Matthew 25:45-46)

QUOTE

The verse omits both hell and those who in hell.

You misunderstand the idiom, "things on Earth and things in Heaven".

No I am not misunderstanding it. It means exactly what it says. It excludes everyone and everything in Hell. By being care to mention Heaven and Earth, it amounts to a qualifier as to what and who will partcipate in redemption. Those in Hell are forever excluded from redemption.

Obviously, you and I hold to radically different understandings of what the lake of fire/the second death is all about. When I read the above passage, I am reminded of the myriad of verses throughout the Bible which describe God as a consuming and refining fire. When I read of death being destroyed by fire, I am reminded that Christ Himself came to baptize with fire (Matt 3:11) and to abolish death (2 Tim 1:10). My position, then, is that the second death is noneother than the Cross. It is my persuasion that the first Adam is to the first death what the second Adam is to the second death, i.e. the first death involves enmity and alienation whereas the second death involves the undoing of the emnity and alienation.

I simply take God at His Word. The text of Revel 20:11-15 is unmistakable. It is not symbolic in the least and does not have any symbolic indicators in the text. It uses very easy to understand, plain verbiage. You, have an agenda, and so it requires you to ignore the basic meaning of the text.

The fires of Hell are not "refining." Nowhere does the Bible speak of Hell in those terms. You are assigning that value to Hell, but with absolutely no Scriptural support.

We are perfected by the blood of Jesus (heb. 10:14, by washing of the water of the word (Eph. 5: 26,27) We made clean by the Word of God (Joh. 15:3).

QUOTE

God's judgement precludes a second chance.

You are merely re-asserting your position. I encourage you to support your position with evidence and a good argument.

If you cannot demonstrate from the Bible, ONE person who went to hell, but received a 2nd chance, if you cannot produce ONE direct doctrinal presecription that states unequivocably that Hell is temporary and that every sinner will get a second chance after death, then I don't really have anything to prove. Your lack of any direct Scriptural support for your assertions, will justify my position by default.

QUOTE

When you enter into eternity under the law and without Christ, that is the condition you are judged in. You can either be judged in this life as "righteous" by accepting Christ or you can wait and be judged "unrighteous" after you enter eternity without Christ. There is no amnesty, no second chances.

These are mere assertions that have yet to be substantiated with either logic or Biblical evidence.

It is simple really. It is called "positional justification."

Every person on this earth belongs to one of two sets of spiritual realities:

You are either In Adam or In Christ (1 Cor. 15:22), You are either a servant of sin or a servant of righteseousness (Rom. 6:16), and you are either under the Law or under grace (Rom. 6:14)

The phrases "in Adam," "servant of sin," and "under the law," are three ways of saying the same thing. You are lost; you are a sinner.

On the other hand, the phrases, "in Christ," "servant of righteousness," and "under grace" refer to those who are born again, who have become New Creations in Christ.

A person will enter eternity in one of those two conditions. One of those conditions is hopeless. Those reject Christ, place themselves under God's Law and they will be judged accordingly.

However, a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is judged on THIS side of the grave, and He is judged "righteous" by God, by virtue of faith in Christ. There are NO examples in the Bible of post mortum Justification. Not one example exists. Everyone who was EVER justified in the Bible was justifed when they were alive, never after death.

You will only get judged ONE time where your eternal destiny is concerned. Either you will judged in this life and judged righteous, or will enter into eternity without Christ and be judged by God's law which demands perfection. There are no appeals, no retrials. You can only be judged once. It is up to decide how you want to stand before God. The way you enter into eternity is the way you will remain for all eternity.

QUOTE

I am not suggesting it, I am stating that outright. God's mercy is everlasting ONLY to those who accept it and appropriate it.

What about Divine Simplicity? If God is eternally good, then everything He does must be good. Similarly, if God is eternally merciful, then all that He does must always be merciful. To suggest otherwise - to suggest that sometimes God does not act in mercy - is to suggest that God can act out of character. However, God is, by definition, perfect and therefore always acts according to His unchanging nature (Malachi 3:6).

God's unchanging nature is just. Justice and mercy are two wings of the same bird. God, throughout the Bible judged Israel and the nations with great wrath. God offers His mercy to everyone. Those who repent, who turn to God will find His mercy everlasting, but just as Israel, Sodom and Gomorrah and other nations discovered, God does not hold the door open forever. God's mercy was extended, but when the people rejected God's mercy one too many times, judgement fell. God's mercy is extended to the wicked to the extent that His justifice is vindicated when it comes down. God's mercy is extended generously, but never eternally, to the wicked. When God does judge them, they have no one but themselves to blame. God's mercy is eternal, but the offer of mercy to mankind is not eternal. The Bible does not teach that God will always be "merciful" to those who place themselves outside the possibility of receiving that mercy. Your assertions do not square with how we see God operating in Scripture. There is a point when God will give people over to their sin (Rom. 1:24, 26, 28). There is a point when the outstretched Hand of mercy will be withdrawn and God's hammer of judgment will fall.

Besides, your above comments do not take into account my opening argument, headed "The Logic of Love." I strongly recommend that you address that argument, as it really gets us to the core of the issue.
I will get to that tomorrow.
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Guest shiloh357
Both the Isaiah passage and the Revelation passage foretell a time when there will be no need for the light of the sun, nor the moon, for God will be the light of the City whose gates remain open so people may continue to enter in. But it matters not, for the sake of our debate, if Isaiah is indeed referring to the event desrcibed by John,
That is the problem. They are not both describing the same event. One is describing the Millennium which is the inaugration to Christ's eternal reign on earth. The other is talking about the New Heavens and New earth.

We know this because Isaiah 60:12 states that the nations who do not serve the Messiah will perish, but according to Rev. 21 there is not more death in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

In Isaiah 60, it is the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel that is in view, as well as Israel's relationship to the Gentile nations. That is not what Revelation 21 is about. The gates in Rev. 21 are never closed because there are no unrighteous people in existance to defile it. They were cast into the lake of fire with Satan.

QUOTE ("Samuel Cripps")

Like I said, my position is that the means of salvation does not change with death. God will resurrect the unrighteous dead and they will again have the opportunity to freely repent.

QUOTE ("Shiloh")

And this is specifically mentioned where, in the Bible?

Here:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wrong. This is not a confession of faith in Jesus as Savior. It is forced admittance to the sovereignty and Lordship of Christ. This is what every tongue will confess. Everyone believer and unbeliever alike will bow the knee, but this in no indicates a confession unto salvation at all.

Paul in this part of Phillipians is contrasting the "servant" Jesus who died on the cross with the "Messiah/King" Jesus who will be declared as Lord on the last day. There is nothing in the text that indicates that all of those who make the above confession are suddenly saved. It simply states that they will acknowledge who Jesus is.

1. The Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is describing this universal confession in the context of salvation, as is evident by considering the parallel structure of the text:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Bowing to Christ and confessing His Lordship is a salvific event!

Not necessarily. What you have in Isaiah is the same as you have Phil 2. It is simply a case where the whole of creation will at once, acknowledge the Lordship of Christ. it is not a salvific event. No mention is made of anyone being saved where that event is concerned. To say it is salvific is at best, nothing but conjecture on your part.

2. The Bible elsewhere states that confessing the Lordship of Christ results in salvation:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This is not the same type of "confession" as outlined in Phil 2 or Isa. 45. Read the verses after it:

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:9-13)

This is the product of individual decsion from the heart to follow Christ. It is with the heart that man beileves in unto rightesouness. You are justified the moment you believe, even before you verbalize it. The "confession" mentioned is Phil 2:11 is a forced confession. All of mankind from Adam, the angels of God, the fallen angels, even satan, himself, everyone will bow the knee and confess Jesus as Christ. It will not be an act of free will. It will be done and no choice will be offered to abstain. Everyone will bow the knee to Christ, either out of love or by force, but they will bow.

What does it mean when it says "confession is made unto salvation?" Verbal confession is definitely a part of that but "confession" or "profession" goes much deeper than that. We confess our salvation when:

1. We publicly profess our faith in Christ, even when it brings persecution

2. We are baptized and take the Lord's Supper

3. We are active in prayer meetings

4. We are generous to the poor.

5. We live our lives in such a way that we testify of Christ by our mere presence in the room and by our actions.

I would also point out that you did not really answer my question. You said that

God will resurrect the unrighteous dead and they will again have the opportunity to freely repent.
I asked where that is specifically stated in Scripture. But none of the examples you give depict those who were dead doing any repenting. Nor, does any of the texts indicate that once having confessed the Lordship of Christ, they were then saved. Nothing in the texts even implies it.
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Guest shiloh357
I would like to begin by briefly considering what I gather to be some essential characteristics of Divine Love as this concept is defined in the New Testament. Love, I propose, involves the will to ultimately bring about that which is in the best interests of the beloved; it is, I suggest, God's loving intention to bring those He loves into unity with Him.

Biblical love as expressed in the Hebrew word

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Guest shiloh357
Aionios and the Biblical Concept of Eternity

My opponent has stated that Hellfire is eternal.

I agree.

Many might find this an odd thing for a Scriptural Universalist to say, but I have no reservations in admitting as much. To be sure, there have been a number of Christian Universalists who have insisted that the Greek word aionios never means

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