Quotes

[artsylady]

"It was a parable for students of scientific objectivity. Wherever the chart disagreed with his observations he rejected the observation and followed the chart. Because of what his mind thought it knew, it had built up a static filter, an immune system, that was shutting out all information that did not fit. Seeing is not believing. Believing is seeing. If this were just an individual phenomenon it would not be so serious. But it is a huge cultural phenomenon too and it is very serious. We build up whole cultural intellectual patterns based on past 'facts' which are extremely selective. When a new fact comes in that does not fit the pattern we don't throw out the pattern. We throw out the fact. A contradictory fact has to keep hammering and hammering and hammering, sometimes for centuries, before maybe one or two people will see it. And then these one or two have to start hammering on others for a long time before they see it too." (Pirsig, Robert M. [American philosopher and writer], "Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals," Bantam: London, 1991, pp.343-344. Emphasis in original.)

Let's just go one by one here.

Now why would you call this 'out of context' assuming you know what that means?

[Hunterpoet]

I believe I know what " out of context " means, but I don't understand how it applies here. I'm assuming that this is an excerpt from his book, but did not see an" out of context "position mentioned, other than your statement.

From reading the excerpt, I get the impression the author is alluding to, very specifically, just how hardheaded and stiffnecked people can be.

If you are asking, is the behavior " out of context ", I would say no. It is contradictory to the evidence.

Please bear with me if I have misunderstood your question.

[Richard_yaash]

"It was a parable for students of scientific objectivity. Wherever the chart disagreed with his observations he rejected the observation and followed the chart. Because of what his mind thought it knew, it had built up a static filter, an immune system, that was shutting out all information that did not fit. Seeing is not believing. Believing is seeing. If this were just an individual phenomenon it would not be so serious. But it is a huge cultural phenomenon too and it is very serious. We build up whole cultural intellectual patterns based on past 'facts' which are extremely selective. When a new fact comes in that does not fit the pattern we don't throw out the pattern. We throw out the fact. A contradictory fact has to keep hammering and hammering and hammering, sometimes for centuries, before maybe one or two people will see it. And then these one or two have to start hammering on others for a long time before they see it too." (Pirsig, Robert M. [American philosopher and writer], "Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals," Bantam: London, 1991, pp.343-344. Emphasis in original.)

Let's just go one by one here.

Now why would you call this 'out of context' assuming you know what that means?

I understand what it means and the dynamics of what is being stated.

As for as context, I can only guess as to what you are referring too. That being said, here is my guess:

In the past, I have seen people quote certain snippets from commentaries, encyclopedias, dictionaries, books etc. etc. etc.. I have seen such people take a snippet and use it as a means of rebuttal. I for one am bad about this for when someone uses such a snippet, I will look up the full context, because I have seen some use a snippet such as the above as a means of rebuttal and having taking only a *selected* portion, caused the snippet to read differently than what the author himself had intended when read in full context.

HTH

[Guest]

Using Science As A Screen To Judge Folk's Culture And Faith?

It Is The Faithful That Judge Science And Finds It Is Blind To Things Eternal

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Corinthians 4:10

And Unbelief Clouds The Mind Of Sinner Man

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3

To The Light Of God

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Corinthians 4:4

Jesus The Christ

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

[The Lorax]

Any scholar of the Bible can tell you how and why quote-mining is bad. Sentences are not self-contained units of meaning--they are all situated in a larger picture and if you remove it from that, the meaning of the sentence changes. Of course, creationists already know this. They like quote-mining precisely BECAUSE it is prone to distortion. Time and time again I've been in debates where a creationist will through down a sentence or two and ask me if I agree or disagree with it. Then I will do some research, find the source (which they always "forget" to provide) and show them how they've completely misinterpreted the quote. It's embarrassing.

It helps YECs that they have loads and loads of literature to sift through. I can see it now, some guy hunched over a stack of dusty tomes looking for that perfect sentence to wrench out of context. Haha. I mean, you really can't blame the Believers who go around parroting the mined quotes--they might not know better--but there's no excuse for those people who dig them up in the first place. What a shady game, and how ironic that it's played by self-proclaimed defenders of The Truth!

[Guest]

Sneers And Jeers Oh My!

Two Chums

There Are Only Two Choices

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Belief On The Lord Jesus Christ

Or Eternal Condemnation

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-18

Choice Wisely

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[artsylady]

In the past, I have seen people quote certain snippets from commentaries, encyclopedias, dictionaries, books etc. etc. etc.. I have seen such people take a snippet and use it as a means of rebuttal. I for one am bad about this for when someone uses such a snippet, I will look up the full context, because I have seen some use a snippet such as the above as a means of rebuttal and having taking only a *selected* portion, caused the snippet to read differently than what the author himself had intended when read in full context.

Anytime a quote is posted, athiest ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS say they are out of context. You can count on it, even if they are not.

[artsylady]

what's the point of quotes? They don't prove anything.

They prove that there are prominent evolutionists that realize that there are serious flaws with the theory of evolution. Something atheists on message boards will never admit or even realize.

If I quoted some famous scientist talking about religion in a negative way, would you take it as evidence against your beliefs?

No, I would not be surprised if an scientist talked about religion in a negative way. I myself don't find 'religion' very appealing.

Is the point you're trying to make that some scientists disagree with evolution?

No. My point is that prominent evolutionists realize there are flaws. There are many various flaws and many various prominent evolutionists that have admitted this.

That's not what the quotes suggest and even if it was, what would that achieve? Are you trying to me an appeal to numbers? Such an appeal is misguided in this case as the numbers still support evolution and besides, that means nothing. Why are you so insistent on using useless quotes?

They are only useless unless people like yourself begin to realize that evolution has a lot of flaws.

[artsylady]

Any scholar of the Bible can tell you how and why quote-mining is bad.

No any scholar will tell you that it's important to quote scripture in it's context. Quotes are great. Joe uses them all of the time. See above. Aren't they good ones? And they're not out of context either.

Sentences are not self-contained units of meaning--they are all situated in a larger picture and if you remove it from that, the meaning of the sentence changes. Of course, creationists already know this.

Okay, so you are saying this is out of context?

Why do you say this?

They like quote-mining precisely BECAUSE it is prone to distortion.

I don't mean to stereotype but why do athiests on message boards all sound like this, with your 'quote mining' and 'out of context' and 'creationists ignore evidence' and 'creationists are not real scientists.' At least no one on this message board calls us 'Fundies'.

Time and time again I've been in debates where a creationist will through down a sentence or two and ask me if I agree or disagree with it. Then I will do some research, find the source (which they always "forget" to provide) and show them how they've completely misinterpreted the quote. It's embarrassing.

Feel free to embarass me then. Just show my why I should be embarrassed.

It helps YECs that they have loads and loads of literature to sift through. I can see it now, some guy hunched over a stack of dusty tomes looking for that perfect sentence to wrench out of context. Haha. I mean, you really can't blame the Believers who go around parroting the mined quotes--they might not know better--but there's no excuse for those people who dig them up in the first place. What a shady game, and how ironic that it's played by self-proclaimed defenders of The Truth!

You really, really hate quotes like these don't you? It really, really shows.

[Richard_yaash]

Anytime a quote is posted, athiest ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS say they are out of context. You can count on it, even if they are not.

Your point taken and understood.