The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[Celt]

The idea of a revived Roman empire with ten nations around Rome fulfilling the idea of the ten horns I feel is supposition, because it lacks Biblical witnesses. Daniel 7 does not declare those ten horns will be of a revived Roman empire any more than Rev.17 does. In Rev.17 our Lord told us the waters of the Rev.13:1 beast over which the "whore sitteth" represent "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues". It's in the sense of the whole earth, not just one part of it like Europe.

In Rev.13:2, we are given the animal symbols from Daniel 7 of other kingdoms of old for comparison. The lion represented the Babylonian empire, the bear the Medo-Persia empire, and the leopard Macedonia (Greece). Because those three are given as comparisons to the Rev.13:1 beast system, none of them are any less revivable than the Roman empire. Since Rev.13:2 compares it to those other beast kingdoms of old also, that points to the fallacy of trying to see a revived Roman system. It means to look further.

The ten kings receive no power until the little horn arrives, and then they rule with him for one hour. Our Lord did not confine those ten kings to one sole area of the earth, but shows they help the false king rule. So is the false king coming to rule over only a part of the earth, or over the entire earth? If over all the earth, then those ten kings would have power over all the earth too in ruling with the beast, and thus the peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues is given in the whole earth sense. Those beast kingdoms of old represented control over the whole civilized world in their time. Thus there's no reason to limit the Rev.13:1 beast system to only ten nations, or to Rome in exercising that power. Instead it points to ten regions of power over the whole earth. They need not be ten specific nations.

Christ gave us another clue in Rev.17 about the waters. He said that's what the "whore" will sit over. That's the woman He showed in that Rev.17 Chapter, and later in Rev.18, the Babylon harlot. Thus another paradox comes up with that when pointing to Rome only, because why did He use the name Babylon for that harlot and mention the lion symbol from Daniel 7 about the old Babylon kingdom, if He was only pointing to Rome?

Our Lord Jesus revealed much more, but it's at the end of the Rev.17 chapter about the "whore" and "woman"...

Rev 17:16-18

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(KJV)

There's the first clue as to who the Babylon harlot is. It is the "great city" which reigneth over the kings of the earth. The Babyon harlot is a "great city", and it will reign over "the kings of the earth"? Which kings of the earth are those? It's the same ten kings our Lord was teaching of in that same chapter.

Where's that "great city"? That's where the other Revelation references to a certain city comes into this. Is it really about Rome per God's Word?

Rev 16:15-19

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

(KJV)

There's that "great city" again. Is the same one our Lord Jesus was talking about in Rev.17? Those Rev.16 verses are about His second coming, and the great earthquake of Zechariah 14 when His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 tells us that area of Jerusalem will be cleaved in two, half moved to the north and half moved to the south, with a great valley being formed there. Is Jerusalem that "great city"?

Rev 11:7-8

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

This is about God's "two witnesses" that are to appear in Jerusalem and give witness against the beast system. At the end of their witness, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will war against them and kill them. Who is the angel over the bottomless pit? Jesus gives us a big clue with that one.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(KJV)

Their dead bodies will lay in the street of Jerusalem. Note how Jerusalem, where our Lord Jesus was crucified, is being spiritually compared to Sodom and Egypt in that time? Why? It's because of the false worship that will be going on there when God's two witnesses appear there in the last days. In the Old Testament times, when Israel fell away from God and did false worship in Jerusalem, God compared Jerusalem to a harlot city. In Ezekiel 16 God proclaims His love for Jerusalem, but He describes how Jerusalem began as a filthy harlot until He picked up cleansed her and dressed her with beautiful jewels and married her. It's all given in the spiritual sense.

Jerusalem is that "great city" of Revelation, and the Babylon harlot dressed in scarlet which says she is no widow (Rev.18:7). Jerusalem also is where the blood of slain prophets and martyrs of Jesus was first mentioned in The Bible. It's an error to try to move that reference forward in time to support the revived Roman empire supposition, because our Lord remarked about Jerusalem's blood guilt from killing the prophets before Christians existed.

Rev 17:6-7

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

(KJV)

The mystery of the woman? It's about Jerusalem in a state of false worship. Not Rome, and not any pope. The Reformers believed Rome was the seat of antichrist in their days. Yet the prophecy of God's "two witnesses" was not fulfilled in Rome, and has yet to be fulfilled today. Moreover, there two different 'beasts' mentioned in Rev.13. From Rev.13:11 forward it's about "another beast", pointing to the "dragon", setting up idol image worship for the whole world to bow to. In Rev.12:7-9 we are told that "dragon" name is another title for Satan himself.

Dave

[glorywatch]

"The church should be preparing people to persevere and trust God through all persecution and tribulations, but instead is directing the sheep to pack for a vacation." YOD....amen!

IMO people want to believe in a rapture theory (brought to this country in the 1800's by John Nelson Darby) because they are more interested in their disappearing that the glorious appearing. There are way to many examples in Scripture of God protecting his people THROUGH trials and tribulations, not removing them from them. What makes us so special that we would be magically wisked away and escape all persecution. Nothing! Tribulation is not Wrath. Sorry, thats not the original question.

We are trying to understand Eastern language with a Western mind. The symbols use in Revelation with regards to the countries that come into play referred to those countries that existed in that time.

Assyrian Empire - Lion (Symbolized by a lion (Jer 50:17,18)

Babylonian Empire - Lion with wings and the eagle (Symbolized by the head of gold (Dan 2:38, a lion with eagles wings (Dan 7:5)

Medo-Persian Empire - Bear and the ram (symbolized by the breastplate and arms of silver (Dan 2:39), the bear (Dan 7:5) and a ram (Dan 8:3-4, 20)

Grecian Empire - Leopard with wings, He-goat with horn and the he-goat with 4 horn (symbolized by the belly and thighs of brass (Dan 2:39), the leopard with 4 heads and 4 wings (Dan 7:6), the rough he-goat with horn (Dan 8:5-9, 21) and the he-goar with 4 horns (Dan 8:8-9, 21-23)

Old Roman Empire - symbolized by 2 legs of Iron (Dan 2:33, 40) the non-descript beast (Dan 7:7, 8, 17), the 10 horns (Dand 7:23-24; Rev 12:3, 13:1, 17:8-17) and the beast of Rev 17

Revelation 17:10 tells us that there are 7 kings and 5 are fallen. (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece) 6 is the old Roman Empire and the 7th is yet to come. It is made up of the 10 kingdoms that are yet to be formed inside the old Roman empire. (you need Biblical maps) to see all that the old Roman empire covers.

The beast that was and is not, is the 8th. The 8th kingdom succeeds the 7 preceeding kingdoms but is made up of one of the original 7.

The 10 kingdoms are future, not yet formed (at the time Revelation was written)

.

Edited June 7, 2008 by glorywatch

[OneLight]

I'm not going to add anything relevant to this topic, but just wanted to add a couple of thoughts. First, most people are always looking for the easiest way out of life's problems. It's in our nature. To be taken before things get bad would be the easiest way out , but I still am not convinced that the pre-trib rapture will take place. In fact, the more I have tried to find the answer, the more I find that this will not be the case. Saying this, my plan is to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Not trying to sound negative by these labels, for if we do go through the tribulation, those who are His will be taken care of by Him, as we read in scripture of our fore fathers. Jesus warns us to be ready for that day. We should be researching what "being ready" means and not worry about the when.

OneLight

[Celt]

I must agree with that also, since I find no evidence for any "secret" coming of our Lord to pull out His saints. Instead I find in The Bible His coming will be quite noisey, and every eye will see it.

From my own Bible study, and the level of deceptions the pre-trib "secret rapture" theory is causing today, it's apparently a test required by part of God's overall Plan for the last days, part of the "strong delusion" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2. I also find that many on that "secret rapture" doctrine haven't studied The Bible to as great a depth as those with a post-trib view have. And those among them that appear to be studied still can be seen relying more on interpretation from organizational creeds about it than from direct Scripture.

But for those with a post-trib view of Christ's second coming, that has been the traditional view of Christianity since the 1st century up to the 1830's, the 1830's being when Edward Morgan, the Irvingite church and Darby began spreading the "secret rapture" view in Britain.

So why would our Lord allow so many brethren to become deceived in the last days with that "secret rapture" view? And how will they be reconciled to Christ? That's what stays on my mind. I don't want to sound like a religious hypocrite with saying that. But I don't see how heeding that "secret rapture" view will keep the believer standing in Christ all the way to the end.

Dave

[John3;16]

Celt

[Celt]

Hi John 3:16,

Recall what Paul taught in 1 Cor.10 about "ensamples". There is such a thing as Biblical blueprints, where historical Scripture can serve as an "ensample" for a future prophecy (1 Cor.10). Within the Books of God's prophets, there's prophetic events that have never happened mixed in among events that were history. An example would be Paul's reference in 1 Cor.15 to death being swallowed up in victory from Isaiah 25. Another example, one from our Lord Jesus in Luke 4, is that of Isaiah 61:1-2, the last part of Isaiah 61:2 being for His second coming. Then there's Zechariah 9:9-10 covering both the first and second coming of Christ. I mean, a thorough study in God's prophets reveals bits all over the place that are yet to be fulfilled. And often, those bits are mixed in among Scripture that was historical. There's also whole Chapters that have yet to be fulfilled, like Isaiah 11. There quite a few Scriptures in the OT prophets which describe events about Christ's future coming, and the gathering of His saints.

Then, there are Scriptures that serve as "ensamples" like Paul taught in 1 Cor.10, as a blueprint type, which have more than one fulfillment. I'm not assigning that idea loosely either. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel is of that type. For example, in 170 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes conquered Jerusalem, went into the Temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and setup idol false worship. He fulfilled the 'little horn' prophecy almost to a tee, yet not all of it. Per the Book of Daniel, and our Lord Jesus, the "abomination of desolation" is about setting up false idol worship in Jerusalem.

Say you had lived prior to the 70 A.D. date. You'd probably have thought Antiochus had fulfilled the Daniel prophecy about the vile person settting up idol worship in the "holy place" (Temple). Then our Lord Jesus comes and gives another warning about it, showing what? That what Antiochus did back in 170 B.C. served only as an "ensample" of the prophecy. Then when the Romans came in 70 A.D. and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, and you lived through that, you might say the prophecy was definitely fulfilled. But per history, Jerusalem was rebuilt minus the Temple and conquered several more times thereafter, with one time even being renamed for a while under pagan worship. Historically, Jerusalem has been sieged and conquered by invading armies something like 27 times. Since you reference Zech.14, I think you're familiar with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies one last time, with Christ's coming to free it. Has that happened yet today? No.

There's a Scripture which many forget, and most often pass off as being about the beast of Rev.13:1...

Rev 12:3-4

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

(KJV)

I don't think any Bible scholar would disgree with verse 4 being long past, a time when Satan first rebelled against God and drew one third of the angels (stars) to the earth with him, at his original fall. Note a description is given along with that timing about a beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. That is given there for a reason. It's not about the Rev.13:1 beast in modification. Those two verses are linked together as to the subject. So why only "seven crowns" there instead of "ten crowns" like the one in Rev.13:1? Some will think that's the same one of Rev.13:1, after 3 kings are subdued from the Daniel prophecy. But if so, why's it linked to the time when Satan first rebelled?

In Ezekiel 28, 31, and Isaiah 14, why is Satan compared within descriptions about historical pagan kings? What kind of blueprint "ensample" is God giving with those kind of references?

There is a level of understanding God's Word where we are to pick up on that type of "ensample" thing. Many think it's too vague to consider, but that's to their loss, since God placed that in His Word for our learning.

Consider these verses about the saints returning to Jerusalem to be with Christ also...

Isa 66:18-24

18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see My glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard My fame, neither have seen My glory; and they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(KJV)

[Celt]

By John 3:16:

sounds like the same accounts throughout scripture. as far as who the 10 nations are, the rivived Roman Empire could fulfill the prophesy, but the can be made an argument for others also. but Jerusalem is not the whore. it is false religon that has from the first kingdoms infiltrated and influenced rulers, peoples and laws.

The Rev.11:8 verse is specifically about Jerusalem, since that's where our Lord Jesus was crucified. But why is Jerusalem referred to there in the spiritual sense as Sodom and Egypt? And in Rev.17:18, why does our Lord refer to the "woman" of that chapter as that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth? Do you realize what it means when a city reigns over all kings on earth? It means it's 'ground zero', the city over all others on earth. Why would that point only to Jerusalem and nowhere else?

It's because Jerusalem is exactly where our Lord Jesus warned about a false one coming and placing the "abomination of desolation" in the "holy place" (Matt.24:15; Mark 13:14). The Book of Daniel gives that detail about Jerusalem too. And, recall the "ensample" of Antiochus Epiphanes per history in Jerusalem?

Throughout Rev.17 our Lord is talking about that "woman", MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And with the last verse of that chapter He breaks the news, that the "woman" is a certain "great city". I realize that may ruin the interpreation some Church organizations have about the Babylon harlot. But who should we listen to in The Word?

A line by line study of the Old Testament prophets reveals that to be Jerusalem in a state of false worship. We need to remember what God said about Jerusalem when Israel fell away from Him in OT times.

What the Reformers saw in their era was but through a glass darkly, because their vision was limited to what they were mainly going through in Europe. They did not focus their view of antichrist on Jerusalem, but with Rome. We're in the 21st century now, and it's easy to grasp that the "abomination of desolation" prophecy was not fulfilled in Rome. So Rome in the Reformer's days can serve as a Biblical "ensample", but that means to keep looking since it didn't come to pass through Rome. Nor will the prophecy our Lord gave in Matthew 24 be fulfilled by Rome in the last days, but in Jerusalem. For that's where God sends His "two witnesses" to give a testimony, and is also where our Lord Jesus will return to defeat the false one per 2 Thess.2.

Our Lord actually gave more direct clues as to who the false one coming to Jerusalem to do false worship will be. For in Rev.12:7-9 He tells us that the "dragon" is but another title for Satan himself, and that Satan and his angels are to be cast down to the earth during the tribuation timing.

And that truly fits the ultimate idea of 'antichrist', and the "son of perdition". Did you know another one of Satan's titles uses that Greek word for 'perdition'? In Rev.9:12, the locust army has a king over them, and that king is the angel of the bottomless pit whose name is Apollyon. In the Greek that name is from 'apollumi' and is where the word 'perdition' came from in 2 Thess.2. It's one of Satan's titles because he has already been judged and sentenced to 'perish' in the "lake of fire".

That also fits what Satan declared he wants to do (from Ezek.28 and Isaiah 14). The way he originally rebelled was by coveting God's Throne. It was his job originally to guard God's Throne, since he was created as the cherub that covereth, meaning covering the Mercy Seat. God mocks him when he said he will sit in the sides of North (God's Place), and be over the congregation of The LORD. This is why the 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Scripture especially points to Satan in wanting be God, setting himself up in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That Scripture is linked to the Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 Scripture about Satan coveting God's Throne. Man has many ways of trying to deter Christ's servants away from that discernment, but God has already shown us in His Word that's set to happen.

That points to the ultimate role of the antichrist and false messiah being reserved for Satan himself, as he has always wanted to be God, and to be worshipped in place of God. No pope, no guru, nor mystic, nor flesh man could ever fulfill that role. It's a role reserved only for the devil himself in person on earth. And as God said He originally created Satan the full pattern, and a beautiful angel, that means he's not coming wearing red flannel underwear and wielding a pitchfork. Many have gotten so used to the antichrist role being referred to as some flesh man like a pope, or someone born in the flesh that it's practically impossible for them to fathom Satan and his angels being cast down here on earth in the last days like Rev.12:7-9 says.

And where else but Jerusalem would Satan want to come and set himself up in place of God? Jerusalem! For that's where God has chosen to dwell forever.

The doctrines about Rome and the pope, or the EU, or New York being the seat of the antichrist are coming from groups that don't want the believer to listen to God's Word about Jerusalem in a state of false worship in the last days. Jerusalem will be the barometer to watch in the last days, just as it's always been.

Dave

[John3;16]

The Rev.11:8 verse is specifically about Jerusalem, since that's where our Lord Jesus was crucified. But why is Jerusalem referred to there in the spiritual sense as Sodom and Egypt? And in Rev.17:18, why does our Lord refer to the "woman" of that chapter as that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth? Do you realize what it means when a city reigns over all kings on earth? It means it's 'ground zero', the city over all others on earth. Why would that point only to Jerusalem and nowhere else?

The great city is Babylon, not Jerusalem, The Antichrist will destroy the harlot, so that would not logically fit Jerusalem, since the Lord returns to rescue Jerusalem after the fact. and Jesus would not rescue Babylon. She is the Mother of harlots, so she has many daughters, we see the effects that religion has had against God true followers, looking back through history false religion has been there to suduce the kingdoms of the world, the Pharo's of Egypt were considered to be gods, the Roman Emperors were worshiped as gods, and the effects were seen in Israel and Judea also, the prophets were killed by false prophets, and prophetesses, and even those who were given authority to rule the people in Moses seat, caused Jesus's death, not that this was not apart of Gods plan, but they still are guilty. And Jesus told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil.

You are correct in the fact that the Harlot is a picture of false religion, and that the extent exceeds any singular false religion, in fact the picture given to us in Revelation 17 is a woman riding the beast, and the beast represents numerous kingdoms and eras, but we know from history and scripture that religion has been around as long as mankind, and many of the religions of today trace there roots back to an early form, such as new age, or the combined humanistic religion, and the mother and son religions that pervert Gods plan of redemption through the seed of a woman. When God gave the Land to the children of Israel he told them to utterly destroy those nations, and not give their sons and daughters to them, because they word draw them away to serve other gods. (Deuteronomy 7:1_6) and we see the effects of worship of false gods had on Israel. False religion has always had a strangle hold on rulers and kingdoms.

Deuteronomy 7

[Celt]

Rev 11:7-8

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(KJV)

You'll find the false one of the Book of Daniel is the one who makes war against the saints during the tribulation. God's Word points to that false one as this same "beast that ASCENDETH OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT". That ain't no pope, nor any flesh born man. It's that old serpent, the devil. That's who that "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is, the "dragon" even. It ain't no pope, and God's "two witnesses" are not killed in Rome, but in Jerusalem.

And where does God's Word say that will take place? In the "great city" 'WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED'. And where was our Lord Jesus crucified? IN JERUSALEM.

This ain't rocket science, it's God's Word, very simple. And I'll take God's simple Word as The Truth any day over men's doctrines.

Dave

Edited June 11, 2008 by Celt

[Celt]

The Babylon harlot of Revelation is not some pope, nor Rome. It is about false idol worship, but not in Rome.

In Rev.11:8 is the first reference in Revelation to the "great city", and is shown without a doubt to be Jerusalem, because that's where Christ was crucified.

Then there are 8 more references to the "great city" in Rev. thereafter, all referring to the Babylon harlot.

But in Rev.21:10, which is after Christ's second coming, appears the very last reference to the "great city", which is again without a doubt Jerusalem. But with that last "great city" reference, it's about the New Jerusalem descending from God out of Heaven.

Our Lord Jesus' revealing what the Babylon harlot is at the end of Rev.17 is set in stone. It cannot be re-written.

Rev 17:18

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(KJV)

Concerning a pre-trib rapture that some say is to occur prior to those events in Jerusalem; our Lord Jesus and His Apostles already showed we are to go through the great tribulation. That's easily known by the timing Paul gave in 2 Thess.2, showing us the false one must come first, and then a great falling away of many into false worship, and then Christ's coming to reveal who the antichrist is, ending the antichrist's working. Per Paul, all that must occur BEFORE any gathering of the saints to Christ Jesus.

And again, believing Israel cannot be separated from Christ's Body. Whatever is to happens to them during the tribualtion is for all of Christ's Church too. The Church will not be gathered to Christ Jesus prior to the great tribulation.

Dave