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The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?


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Dave

Your ascertion that Jerusalem is Babylon would require a future fulfillment as you stated, but the description that I see in Rev 17:1 and 17:2 seem to indicate a past relationship with the kings of the earth. In verse 17:1 the woman is described as a great whore that sitteth upon many waters, this indicates two noteable points, one the fact that she is labled as a whore reveals that she is Apostate, and that she sits upon many waters indicates that she transends any single national boarder and sits over many peoples, tounges, and nations. This does not fit Jerusalm.

Btw: I never stated that the Rived Roman Empire was the Roman Catholic Church, and I don't believe that it fits bibically.

You can make an argument that the R.C. is babylon, because of the past history, and the influence over nations.

No, that doesn't fit Jerusalem... not in the state it's in today! I agree 100% with you on that point. But has the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 started yet? Have God's "two witnesses" that are to appear in Jerusalem and give witness for 1260 days began yet? No. Nor has the false one showed up there either, for he is to continue there for 42 months. Look at the first part of Rev.11 again. The "holy city" is given for the Gentiles to trample on for 42 months. That's not given in the positive sense. It's in the negative, the enemy taking Jerusalem over sense. Jerusalem will be in possession of Christ's enemies for that period, and that time is not yet today.

Good catch on the "waters" idea too, because that's very important. Don't you recall Rev.13 about the two 'beasts'? There's two different 'beasts' being taught in Rev.13. The first one has comparisons to the pagan kingdoms of old from Daniel 7. And Jesus told us what those waters ("sea") represent in Rev.17:15. It points to Jerusalem as being the reigning city over all nations and peoples during that time. But with Christ upon a throne? No, and that's the major difference, for in Rev.13:11 forward we are told about "another beast", and given prophecy about the greatest false worship events the earth has ever known. That second beast is a religious beast; the first beast is a political beast over all nations, i.e. "New World Order" type. Revelation 17 mentions a "king" coming to reign, but that first one won't be our Lord Jesus.

Because of that, a false one setup as king over the whole earth in Jerusalem, with the Gentiles trampling upon the holy city for 42 months, Jerusalem will be in a harlot false worship state. That's where the antichrist is coming to fool as many as will into bowing to him in place of God.

Our Lord gave us those references about Jerusalem in Rev.11 & 17. His coming is back to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem; Armageddon is about a certain hill in the area just north of Jerusalem. Jesus linked the final example of the "abomination of desolation" event to Jerusalem. He showed us in Rev.12:7-9 that Satan and his angels are cast down to this earth in the last days, and during the 1260 day period persecute the woman (God's people). The northern army is to come up against Jerusalem. In the Old Testament, God said His intent was to gather the nations around Jerusalem to pour out His cup of wrath upon them (Zeph.3; Joel 3; Rev.16; Micah 4; Zech.14:2; Luke 21:20). What more Bible evidence do you need?

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Guest shiloh357

The problem with using the book of Revelation to claim that Jerusalem is the city of Babylon in Revelation is that there is no corroborative evidence from the writings of the prophets relating to the end times. The OT prophets had much to say about the end times with respect to Jerusalem in the last days, but they give no representation of Jerusalem in an end-time scenario that would fit with the description of Babylon in Rev. 17-18.

Furthermore, the reason that the destruction of Babylon does not fit the description given Zechariah 14 is that in Revelation, Babylon is destroyed by God. In Zechariah 14, Jesus is returning to rescue Jerusalem FROM destruction that is being waged against her by the nations of the world.

There simply is no scriptural basis founded on sound biblical interprative processes.

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Dave

In Rev 17:7 the woman is seen sitting on a beast which has seven heads, in verse 9, the heads of the beast are difined. They are seven mountains which represent seven kingdoms or Empires as verse 10 continues to reveal. Now of these seven kings and kingdoms five have already fallen by the time of the writing of Revelation, and the time of this vision that the Apostle is describing. This would indicate that the harlot which rode upon the beast, has atempted to control governments and kingdoms from the very beginning of nations.

Revelation 17

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

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The problem with using the book of Revelation to claim that Jerusalem is the city of Babylon in Revelation is that there is no corroborative evidence from the writings of the prophets relating to the end times. The OT prophets had much to say about the end times with respect to Jerusalem in the last days, but they give no representation of Jerusalem in an end-time scenario that would fit with the description of Babylon in Rev. 17-18.

Furthermore, the reason that the destruction of Babylon does not fit the description given Zechariah 14 is that in Revelation, Babylon is destroyed by God. In Zechariah 14, Jesus is returning to rescue Jerusalem FROM destruction that is being waged against her by the nations of the world.

There simply is no scriptural basis founded on sound biblical interprative processes.

Not a literaldirect correlation to Jerusalem as Babylon, but in the allegorical sense. The land of Babylon historically was the first area of collective false pagan worship, and sought to exalt herself over all peoples on earth. But Babylon is not the only symbolic reference to false worship in Jerusalem given in Revelation. Rev.11:8 uses Sodom and Egypt to refer spiritually to Jerusalem in a fallen state, as in Isaiah 1. Those kinds of references can be found in the prophets about Jerusalem in the past. Here's another one that correlates with what the prophets wrote...

Rev 18:7

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."

(KJV)

Why will the Babylon harlot say she sits a queen, and is 'no widow' in that time? That was used as a spiritual reference to Jerusalem in the Book of Lamentations, a time when the king of Babylon conquered Jerusalem and took the house of Judah captive to Babylon...

Lam 1:1-10

1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.

3 Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.

(KJV)

You'll also find spiritual metaphors about Jerusalem in a fallen state in the Book of Jeremiah. In Ezekiel 16 our Heavenly Father even gives major comparisons to Jerusalem in a fallen state before He cleansed her and married her. Afterall, Jerusalem was the city of Jebus originally, a city of the Jebusites of Canaanites before God took it through His servant David.

It's obvious with these hints our Lord gives in Revelation that were first written in the prophets, that He does not intend to directly say the Babylon harlot "great city" is last days Jerusalem. I don't like the idea of Jerusalem being overtaken by the enemy in the last days and used for false worship anymore than any of brother Judah does. Yet I do see it as part of God's overall Plan for this age; He has a purpose for letting it happen, just as He allowed Jerusalem to fall away in past history.

A message our Lord Jesus gave that correlates with spiritual harlotry in Jerusalem...

Luke 23:27-31

27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"

(KJV)

When our Lord Jesus was being delivered up to be crucified, He turned to those daughters of Jerusalem and gave a parable about false worship. He mentioned it for them and their children after them. He quoted from Isaiah 54.

Isa 54:1-7

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

This message is specifically to Israel, and per the Luke 23 to the daughters of Jerusalem. It's a spiritual metaphor, because if looking at it literally it doesn't make sense. To travail with child means being pregnant with child, and in labor. The verse says though, that the 'desolate' have more children than the 'married wife'. Those that "didst not travail with child" are the "desolate", their wombs being barren. That doesn't make sense if taken literal. It's in the spiritual sense, as the next verses will also point out.

2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Here's the children the 'desolate', those barren that didn't travail with child, will have. It's about Israel inheriting the Gentiles through Christ Jesus when He gathers both to Him. The desolate cities being inhabited is about Israel's restoration under Christ back to the Holy Land according to God's Promises to their fathers. The believing Gentiles will be gathered with them per Isa.49, etc.

4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

Widowhood points to not being married, spiritually forsaken. The barren are to be spiritual widows until Christ returns for the wedding.

5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

It's because we have One Husband in the spiritual marriage sense, The LORD, The Holy One of Israel, The God of the whole earth. All the spiritual virgin metaphors taught in the New Testament is part of this.

6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

(KJV)

So what about those that do not remain spiritually 'barren' and 'without child'? Those are the ones our Lord Jesus is talking about in the Luke 23 verses. It's those deceived in Jerusalem of the daughters that will declare the barren who remained faithful to the end, and did not fall away into false worship to a false one. That's why those deceived will be saying about the barren who are blessed, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bear...". And instead, because of shame, those who fall away will be saying for the mountains to fall on them, and for the hills to cover them.

Then our Lord ends His message with, "For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"

An evergreen tree is used in reference to our Heavenly Father. It represents stability like how He is our ROCK. An evergreen stays green all year. If Jerusalem at that time had our Lord Jesus crucified, what would they do in a dry tree? The dry tree is the opposite of our Heavenly Father. It represents Satan, the 'bramble'. So in other words, what kind of acts would occur in Jerusalem if the dry bramble was in power there, meaning the devil himself?

At the latter part of Revelation, the spiritual marriage idea is applied both to a marrige between Jerusalem and God, and spiritual marriage between Christ and His servants at His coming. The spiritual wedding has that double meaning. But before that, with Rev.18:7, the Babylon harlot says she sits a queen, and is no widow. Who is she married to then prior to Christ's coming?

That points to a false marriage between a false messiah and Jerusalem, and a spiritual marriage between false messiah and the deceived that do not remain barren and without child spiritually.

This is why Paul said this...

1Thes 5:2-4

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

(KJV)

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Dave

In Rev 17:7 the woman is seen sitting on a beast which has seven heads, in verse 9, the heads of the beast are difined. They are seven mountains which represent seven kingdoms or Empires as verse 10 continues to reveal. Now of these seven kings and kingdoms five have already fallen by the time of the writing of Revelation, and the time of this vision that the Apostle is describing. This would indicate that the harlot which rode upon the beast, has atempted to control governments and kingdoms from the very beginning of nations.

John,

I understand where you're coming from with the "seven heads" idea, but Jerusalem has hills also. Although, I don't see that as pointing to just the area of Jerusalem either, but the whole earth, as in seven continents. By that it doesn't omit Rome in a state of false worship, nor does it omit any nation that falls away.

The word "MYSTERY" in the Babylon harlot's title can be another clue. The word in the Greek especially points to the pagan mystery school ideas. God has His mysteries of the kingdom which He imparts to His servants by The Holy Spirit, but then there's another set of 'mysteries' that have existed since the foundation of historical Babylon, and those pagan mysteries were imparted through secret ritual and ceremonial initiation. They began in Sumer/Babylon, and continued through the world to later kingdoms like Assyria, the Far East, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Europe, etc. Of course those 'mysteries' of pagandom are false, and only try to copy God's true mysteries of the kingdom. The pagan mysteries are Satan's false copy. And that's what I believe is driving the nations in the last days to setup a fake kingdom over all the earth to imitate Christ's future Perfect Government over all nations.

Looking at it in that sense, well, Rome becomes only a small piece of the pie, for those in the pagan mysteries exist in every nation on earth. In my opinion, those false mysteries go back to the Garden with that old serpent, and represent the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Per history, its first appearance over a nation was the land of ancient Sumer with the first Sargon. And that movement has been responsible for the major false religious worship in all areas. Bel or Baal worship first began there. I see all later forms as mere offshoots of the original in Sumer/Babylon. Thus the reference to Babylon in Revelation is about a lot more than a literal city, but a spiritual movement among all nations that Satan has been behind since his time in God's Garden of Eden.

In the vision of Ezekiel 8, what do you see the spiritual leaders of Israel doing in secret? They are following rites from those old mysteries of pagan worship. At one point 25 men of Israel have their backs turned away from the Temple in worship of the sun toward the east. That results in God's wrath in the next Ezekiel 9 chapter. All that God is giving Ezekiel by vision, and it has links to 1 Peter 4:17-18 and Revelation.

Dave

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Guest shiloh357
Not a literaldirect correlation to Jerusalem as Babylon, but in the allegorical sense. The land of Babylon historically was the first area of collective false pagan worship, and sought to exalt herself over all peoples on earth. But Babylon is not the only symbolic reference to false worship in Jerusalem given in Revelation. Rev.11:8 uses Sodom and Egypt to refer spiritually to Jerusalem in a fallen state, as in Isaiah 1. Those kinds of references can be found in the prophets about Jerusalem in the past.
I understand you are being metaphorical. We have had others on here who try to claim that the "Babylon of Revelation 18 is Jerusalem. You are definately not the first to promote that view.

The problem is that you don't have any OT prophecy about the end times that directly identifies Jerusalem an "end-times" Babylon.

God does use the term "harlot" as well as sodom and egypt as well to describe Jerusalem in a fallen state, but that does mean that the use of it in Revelation demands it be understood to be Jerusalem. What you need, from a hermeneutic standpoint, is a parallel reference to Jerusalem in the last days that identifies her with Bablyon in metaphorical sense.

What we see from the prophets is that every reference to Jerusalem as a harlot or in similar terms, is connected with her condition prior to the Bablyonian exile. We cannot apply terms used about Jerusalem in connection to her condition prior to the Babylonian exile, to Jerusalem in the last days. That simply does not work.

In the OT, the picture is of Jerusalem/Israel being restored to God.

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I understand you are being metaphorical. We have had others on here who try to claim that the "Babylon of Revelation 18 is Jerusalem. You are definately not the first to promote that view.

The problem is that you don't have any OT prophecy about the end times that directly identifies Jerusalem an "end-times" Babylon.

God does use the term "harlot" as well as sodom and egypt as well to describe Jerusalem in a fallen state, but that does mean that the use of it in Revelation demands it be understood to be Jerusalem. What you need, from a hermeneutic standpoint, is a parallel reference to Jerusalem in the last days that identifies her with Bablyon in metaphorical sense.

What we see from the prophets is that every reference to Jerusalem as a harlot or in similar terms, is connected with her condition prior to the Bablyonian exile. We cannot apply terms used about Jerusalem in connection to her condition prior to the Babylonian exile, to Jerusalem in the last days. That simply does not work.

In the OT, the picture is of Jerusalem/Israel being restored to God.

Combined with the views given by the OT prophets about times of Jerusalem's history in a state of false worship, and what Paul taught in 1 Cor.10:11 about "ensamples" from the OT, Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matth.24 and Mark 13, and the direct parallels drawin in Rev.11 about Jerusalem by our Lord, I think that's plenty enough to understand Jerusalem is in the center of false messiah's plan of deception upon the whole world. That's not even to mention the correlation of the Book of Daniel's prophecies about Jerusalem with the "abomination of desolation" which Jesus pointed to also in Jerusalem. Within Daniel the false one who places the abomination of desolation is related to the ten horns prophecy, which in turn relates to the ten horns prophecy in Revelation. I mean, even Rev.13:1-2 is giving a direct parallel to the Daniel 7 ten horns prophecy.

What you're trying to interject is your own rules, like God cannot use symbolic metaphors and allegories to point to propohetic events and places. At least you haven't denied the Rev.11:8 verse using Sodom and Egypt in a spiritual pagan sense to point to Jerusalem in the time of God's "two witnesses". But I guess the day is still young.

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I understand you are being metaphorical. We have had others on here who try to claim that the "Babylon of Revelation 18 is Jerusalem. You are definately not the first to promote that view.

The problem is that you don't have any OT prophecy about the end times that directly identifies Jerusalem an "end-times" Babylon.

Let's look at that more then. Much of the following Scripture was historical about Jerusalem and Judah prior to God sending the king of Babylon upon them and taking them captive to Babylon. The question is, was everything in the following Isaiah Scripture fulfilled at that time? If not, then there's how those events serve as an "ensample" for the last days like Paul taught in 1 Cor.10:11.

Isaiah 1:1-2:22

1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

No doubting what time this was historically for, during the days of the kings of Judah in Jerusalem.

2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against Me.

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, My people doth not consider.

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Our Heavenly Father can be pretty graphic in getting His Message across. Yet He chastizes those whom He loves.

7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

How might that apply for today? The nations are continually chopping the land of Israel up and giving it away to Palestinians. It's also obvious that today's state of Israel is not the pattern for of God's Promised inheritance to Israel in final. It's area is small compared to the old kingdom of Israel. Nations around Israel are constantly bombarding it and causing terrorism. And if Revelation events about the false king coming to setup idol worship over the whole earth uses Jerusalem as his headquarters, then how will these verses apply for the last days? Jerusalem is where Christ pointed with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel in the "holy place" (Matthew 24).

9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

God promised He would leave one tribe in Jerusalem always (1 Kings 11). A small devout remnant of the house of Judah returned from the Babylon captivity, and is still there. But the problem with many of those today is, the majority of them have not recognized Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Savior. And the orthodox among them want Old Covenant animal sacrifices again, and a Levitcal priesthood with a new Temple. Those orthodox Jews have even been gathering materials to build another Temple, and have already been holding Passover sacrifices on a hill overlooking the Temple mount the past few years (see Temple Mount & Land of Israel Faithful movement).

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

There's a direct parallel to Rev.11:8, where our Lord compares Jerusalem in the last days spiritually to Sodom and Egypt, but during the time when God's two witnesses are giving a Testimony. Is today's Israel now accepting more of the political correctness doctrines being espoused by the United Nations for all the nations? Yes, Israel is not left out of that working today. Some of those political ideas involve accepting ideas related to old Sodom with Sodomites. I never thought the leaders of today's Israel would succumb to that prodding by the nations.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Our Heavenly Father doesn't care about those sacrifices. They never were to be a permanent part of His Plan of Salvation. It's even more to the point since He said that in Isaiah's day. Will it apply again in the future based on what the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem want to do with a new Temple? We'll have to wait and see about a new Temple being built. But the animal sacrifices, the orthodox ones have already begun, even without a Temple. And there are some Christian organizations today that are supporting them, for they think it will help usher in Christ's coming sooner.

12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread My courts?

Does Rev.11 mention a treadding of God's courts in Jerusalem for the last days by Gentile strangers? Yes, for 42 months. And notice in Revelation that when a time prophecy is given about God's people, it's in days. But when it's about the enemies of God it's given in months. Per Rev.13:5, that "dragon" is to continue for 42 months.

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto Me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hateth: they are a trouble unto Me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Even then in Isaiah's time, God was more interested in Israel doing righteousness instead of holding religious ritual like it was the main event.

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Is that a direct reference to the harlot of Revelation, once one considers what Paul taught about Biblical "ensamples" for those upon whom the end of the world has come? All this is about Jerusalem, and was mostly historical for Isaiah's day. But wait until the latter parts.

24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease Me of Mine adversaries, and avenge Me of Mine enemies:

25 And I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Has that happenned yet today? Has God purged away Jerusalem's dross and tin, and restored her jugdes and counsellors like in king David's times? Not completely, no, otherwise Israel wouldn't be giving away its land and half the city to the Gentiles. They wouldn't have to succumb to United Nations drawn border lines and tenents. Our Heavenly Father promised that He would establish Israel as a kingdom again in final, with The True King (Christ Jesus), and His people would inherit the desolate cities of the old kingdom. That's when Jerusalem will be called "The city of righteousness, the faithful city". It's for after Christ's return. Even though that's mixed in among historical Scripture in Isaiah, it's not completed yet today.

28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

What major event did the apostle Paul speak of which is to occur on the "last trump" with Christ's coming? What does Revelation show about the battle of Armageddon, and Ezekiel 38-39 with Hamongog? Not just that, but after Christ's future thousand years reign, Satan is loosed one more time to tempt the nations to come upon where? (Rev.20). In other words, when will Jerusalem be cleansed in final, consumating the end? It wasn't with the time of Cyrus, because there has been several times of false idol worship in Jerusalem in later history after that (Greeks, Romans, Mohammedians, Turks, etc.).

29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Reference to the oaks and those gardens refers to false idol worship per Biblical symbolism, like Ashtoreth and oak grove worship.

Isaiah 2:1

The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths:' for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Strange how this sudden move from prophecy for Isaiah's day against Jerusalem suddenly leads into this timing. What timing is that? It's for after Christ's second coming to reign. These are parallels to the 'house' in Ezekiel 40-48 Scripture after the two 'sticks' of Israel are rejoined back to the Holy Land under Christ Jesus with all nations being subdued by Christ ruling with a rod of iron.

4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Christ gave a clue on this timing in Mark 13 when He said when you hear of wars and rumors of war, don't fear for the end is not yet. The opposite is when all wars on earth have ceased, meaning that's when the end will come. The nations will lay down their weapons in the future fake time of "Peace and safety", but Paul said that's when sudden destruction will come, meaning the end of this world age with Christ's coming. Most of this is for after Christ's return, with Christ judging de facto among the nations from Jerusalem. That was a jump forward in timeline. Now the timeline goes back to history...

6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:

8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.

Is there a parallel in Revelation about those who will seek to hide in the dens of rocks and mountains from the face of The One sitting upon a throne when He comes? Yes, in Rev.6:15-17. It's when the kings of the earth, the chief and the rich and mighty men will seek to hide from Christ when they see His coming with Glory. But the Rev.6 example of that is supposed to only be about the Babylon harlot isn't it? If so, then why the direct parallel to that event here concerning Jerusalem? Note "the house of Jacob" is mentioned here, which is put for all twelve tribes of Israel. That's a pointer that this is not just only upon Jerusalem, but wherever the twelve tribes dwell among the Gentiles too.

11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Well, we certainly know that hasn't happenned yet today.

12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.

Those events serve for more than just Jerusalem's historical captivity by the king of Babylon.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

(KJV)

The apostle Paul mentioned at the end of Hebrews 12 that God will once more shake the earth, so that those things He made will remain, while man's works will perish off the earth. That signals the end of this world age when God will do that. In 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10 are references to this time with the day of The Lord. It's obvious that wasn't fulfilled upon all the earth when God brought Cyrus to end the historical Babylon. God's Promise about restoring Israel according to the layout of the old kingdom didn't happen then, nor today either.

There's a reason why our Heavenly Father and His Son used some of these Isaiah references in the Book of Revelation. It means to go back in history and look how God worked then, and bring that working forward to the time of Revelation for the last days. The 'day of The Lord' phrase is one such pure example of that idea in God's Word. One can look at that phrase as used in the New Testament prophecies and say, "Well that was history, because God used that 'day of The Lord' phrase in bringing a destruction upon Jerusalem in Jeremiah's day. Some of the Historist and Preterist views try to use that to prove Revelation is past, but that's truly applying how God layed this out in a backwards way. When The LORD uses an idea taken from a past historical event along with a New Testament prophecy, it means to go back to the historical example and use that as pattern for the future event. That's exactly what our Lord Jesus did in His Book of Revelation when pointing to ideas in Isaiah but joined with future prophecy in Revelation.

Note those Isaiah chapters were written concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Dave

Edited by Celt
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Guest shiloh357

I simply cannot receive that, Celt. You are still violating the most basic rules of literary analysys (hermeneutics) which God in no way circumvented when He inspired the Scriptures.

Using Isaiah 1 as a commentary on modern/last days Israel is invalid and no amount of theological gymnastics is going to change that. Isaiah 1 pertains to Judah/Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian exile. We do not have the justification to expand its meaning/interpretation to apply to last days Judah/Jerusalem simply because the entire scenario is different. All of the particular dynamics pertainingto the events prior to Babylonian exile are not in play at this time.

Once again, when we examine the entire body of information provided by God's OT prophets regarding Israel in the last days, what we see is God restoring the Kingdom to Israel. The prophets simply to do not offer a picture of Israel/Judah/Jerusalem, which is in any way, parallel to the "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation 18. That correlation simply doesn't exist.

Any one can take selected portions of Scripture and make them say whatever they want the Bible to say. You are not first one to come on this board to peddle this teaching. You won't be the last. To be honest, your evidence is no more convincing than what has been presented in the past.

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I simply cannot receive that, Celt. You are still violating the most basic rules of literary analysys (hermeneutics) which God in no way circumvented when He inspired the Scriptures.

I'm not asking you to receive what I covered. It's between you and The Lord how you intepret Isaiah. But please show me what "rules of literary analysis" have been broken.

Using Isaiah 1 as a commentary on modern/last days Israel is invalid and no amount of theological gymnastics is going to change that. Isaiah 1 pertains to Judah/Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian exile. We do not have the justification to expand its meaning/interpretation to apply to last days Judah/Jerusalem simply because the entire scenario is different. All of the particular dynamics pertainingto the events prior to Babylonian exile are not in play at this time.

You're right about what I covered being my comments. It's from my Bible studies. But you're wrong with that idea about theological ploys. Are you saying that the spiritual metaphor of Sodom which God used in Isaiah to point to fallen Jerusalem isn't the same type spiritual Sodom metaphor used in Rev.11:8 by Christ Jesus? Will you say that about 'the day of The Lord' phrase also?

Not all of Isaiah 1 pertains to Jerusalem prior to the king of Babylon coming. For the city of righteousness idea is further covered in the latter Books of Isaiah, which is of the time after Christ returns to setup His Righteousness there. Rev.21:27 is also a parallel to that future time in Jerusalem. The majority in Jerusalem today don't even recognize Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Savior, so that righteousness which God points to in Isaiah certainly isn't about today. Afterall, Jesus Christ is The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS per Jer.23.

How is the scenario in Isaiah different than the one in Revelation per this...

Rev 6:15-17

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

(KJV)

Isa 2:19

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

(KJV)

It's obvious that Isaiah 2:19 verse was about a lot more than the fall of Jerusalem to the king of Babylon. Note in Isaiah's day they didn't go into the holes of the rocks to hide from the king of Babylon, but for fear of The LORD, and His Glory when He shakes the earth. Did God literally shake the earth to end the king of Babylon's reign? No. But in final He will.

Once again, when we examine the entire body of information provided by God's OT prophets regarding Israel in the last days, what we see is God restoring the Kingdom to Israel. The prophets simply to do not offer a picture of Israel/Judah/Jerusalem, which is in any way, parallel to the "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation 18. That correlation simply doesn't exist.

Once all of God's OT prophets are read, one should easily understand there's a lot written about latter day events PRIOR to Christ's restoring the kingdom to Israel. The way I understand what you've said, is that we should disregard Scripture in the OT prophets of events to occur prior to Christ's coming, treating those parts like dead history, and instead go straight to the parts about restoring Israel's kingdom. That would mean to just throw away the Daniel prophecies meant for the last days, and many Scriptures in all the OT prophets that are to occur prior to Christ's return.

So then again, God referring to fallen Jerusalem in Isaiah with the idea of spiritual Sodom has nothing to do with that same symbolic reference in Revelation 11:8? Is that what you're saying? I assume you can mark a timeline. Where did that symbolic reference to Jerusalem as spiritual Sodom in Rev.11:8 first appear in The Bible? The harlot metaphor used by our Lord Jesus in His Book of Revelation, where did that symbolic reference first appear in Scripture? And why was it first used?

Any one can take selected portions of Scripture and make them say whatever they want the Bible to say. You are not first one to come on this board to peddle this teaching. You won't be the last. To be honest, your evidence is no more convincing than what has been presented in the past.

Yeah, and anyone can simply say something isn't true without giving evidence to the contrary, and that means nothing also. Moreover, using little fad phrases like "peddle", "commentary", "violating the most basic rules of literary analysis", "theological gymnastics", "particular dynamics", etc., don't really amount to much either. That sounds more like political clutter instead of plain language which God's people can understand.

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