Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Floatingaxe]

Hey, Christians have always taught a rapture. It's the 'pre trib' position that lacks historicity. Even when I was a fundamental Baptist I always believed in a post-trib rapture. And this is the view Charles Spurgeon held! I now tend to lean strongly toward the 'pre wrath' view.

I know alot of other Christians would disagree w/ me on this.

Peace & Health,

Brian

My husband won't even get into a discussion about whether there is going to be a rapture. He says that if there is a rapture, fine. If not, fine.

On the other hand, I hope the Church or the Body of Christ will be divinely protected during the Tribulation as the Jews were protected in Egypt during the Ten Plagues. Why should God pour out his wrath on his own children; children who have turned from their wicked ways and have accepted Jesus as their Saviour. The Tribulation is a time of God's wrath on those who have rejected Christ and have destroyed the earth.

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But I have to say I'm in the same boat as my husband is. If the rapture happens before the Tribulation, during or even after, fine. Whatever.

Well the wrath of God is the destruction of the wicked by fire which occurs at the post trib 2nd coming, and we will be rapture b4 that as Christ is returning. The tribulation is a product of evil men growing worse and worse deceiving and being deceived. God will indeed protect us through this time of trouble if we hear is voice and go to our place of protection. If not we will starve and be subject to the wrath of evil men and satan (not God's wrath but mans and satans) Just like if Elijah would have not went to the brook where he had water and where the Ravens fed him he would have starved. We must to go to where God leads us during the tribulation, to where our provision is.

There will be a rapture, but it is at the posttrib 2nd coming of Christ, not b4 the tribulation

That is your take, not many would agree.

I am not to concerned with popular opinion, just the truth of scripture.

Then you are saying that many who disagree with you are refuting scripture? Come now! if you knew scripture, you would know that this area is ambiguous at best! You very well could be totally wrong about it, so being dogmatic regarding eschatology is useless, and so popular opinion among believers has importance, as the Holy Spirit leads us to our understanding.

So you are saying you are not dogmatic about the promise you think gave has given you to rapture you to heaven b4 the tribulation?

Just to make it clear the Holy Spirit has never lead anyone into believing the man made lie of the pretrib rapture. The Holy Spirit leads us to the truth not into man made false doctrine.

I am not dogmatic about clearcut doctrine. Pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib beliefs are all supportable, but not biblically clearcut. No one can be dogmatic about them!

If you believe that the pre-trib belief is man-made, you have to believe that any scenario is man-made, as Scripture doesn't lay it out clearly for any one concrete event. The Holy Spirit leads us to the understanding of the basics of the Rapture, but as to the details--that is up to the Christian. In spite of the divergence of opinion, accusations of "man-made doctrine", and the scathing accusation that we are into "false doctrine" is bad behaviour.

[Floatingaxe]

There's the Rapture, and then there's the Second Coming.

[Floatingaxe]

There's the Rapture, and then there's the Second Coming.

Give one scripture that disproves the scriptures I gave that prove the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

The point I have made before is that all scriptures you use are the same ones we use. Nothing disproves the other. It has to do with one's own interpretation, and none are WRONG. So, criticizing and scolding people is really an un-Christian behaviour, and Satan lays in wait with glee at this.

[Guest kybackwoodscrosses]

I know I will be "caught up"!

Me too! Me too!

Oh what a glorious day!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Disciples Love

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:35

Humble In His Grace

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Philippians 2:3

Singing In Their Savior's Ear

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:19

I Love You LORD, I Love You

[Floatingaxe]

There's the Rapture, and then there's the Second Coming.

Give one scripture that disproves the scriptures I gave that prove the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

The point I have made before is that all scriptures you use are the same ones we use. Nothing disproves the other. It has to do with one's own interpretation, and none are WRONG. So, criticizing and scolding people is really an un-Christian behaviour, and Satan lays in wait with glee at this.

You mean you have no scriptures to support your belief, you just believe it because it is what you church teaches. Speaking the truth of God's word is unchristian to you, hmmm that is certainly strange.

I will repeat: The exact same scriptures you use, I use. There is no wrong view, and to get so worked up about it that you INSULT A SISTER without an apology, is playing into the hands of the enemy.

[Massorite]

There's the Rapture, and then there's the Second Coming.

Give one scripture that disproves the scriptures I gave that prove the rapture is at the 2nd coming.

The point I have made before is that all scriptures you use are the same ones we use. Nothing disproves the other. It has to do with one's own interpretation, and none are WRONG. So, criticizing and scolding people is really an un-Christian behavior, and Satan lays in wait with glee at this.

You mean you have no scriptures to support your belief, you just believe it because it is what you church teaches. Speaking the truth of God's word is unchristian to you, hmmm that is certainly strange.

I will repeat: The exact same scriptures you use, I use. There is no wrong view, and to get so worked up about it that you INSULT A SISTER without an apology, is playing into the hands of the enemy.

So you are telling me pretribbers use this scripture to prove the pretrib rapture?

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Or this one?

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

or maybe this one?

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

No the pretrib and posttrib scripture are not the same the reality is that is your excuse for not knowing any pretrib scriptures to provide, but I understand, there are none to know.

You are correct. If it is not written in the bible. It does not exist. Which means there is no such a thing as a pre-trib rapture spoken of anywhere in the bible which means the pre-trib concept is a false doctrinal teaching.

We should remember that Jesus will be coming at the sound of the last trump which means that we will be here on earth during all of the plagues of the first six trumps. Unless of course some one can show some scripture that says we won,t be here for the other six trumps.

[Breckmin]

Is this really fair to pre-tribbers?

It is based on a system of interpreting those particular scriptures - what they call a "dispensational hermeneutic" that

allows you to piece a verse here and a verse there to go with Rev. 3:10.

My question is how profitable is this discussion? The days are few and there is much work to be done. True, I believe

the rapture will take place near the last hours of tribulation just before Armageddon, but how is that going to change the

fact if we are almost all going to be martyred (or our grandchildren or later decendants will be) during the tribulation

for our faith. Seventh trumpet or no seventh trumpet, gathering for war (Armageddon) at the seventh trumpet like in

the Old Testament or not, what difference will arguing about this change the fact that with BOTH positions, there will be

those who are giving their lives who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in front of those who have taken the mark on

their right hand and foreheads.

I have a different discussion!!!!!

There will be many babies and many children who are given the mark of the beast (something to do with 666 perhaps)

and will NOT be consenting to full knowledge??? Are they eternally lost??? Or CAN they repent? If we are witnessing

and giving our lives in front of those who are still living IS there still hope for them???

Here is the question. Is the Cross of Jesus Christ a Great Enough Sacrifice for sins, that if a person cuts the mark of

the beast off of their right hand or off of their forehead and trusts that the Blood of Jesus is a Great Enough Spiritual

Detergent to wash them clean from this mark of the beast.... can they be saved?

Will God condemn the world because of technicality during the tribulation? Or, are we called to still preach the gospel

to those who have taken the mark of the beast? Can a person have an underground Christian doctor remove the

mark of the beast and believe that the Cross of Jesus is Great Enough to forgive them for taking the mark and

be saved by their FAITH???

Where is the heart of God the Father on this?? Which event meant more to God the Father? Jesus dying on the

Cross for our sins, or them first taking the mark? and then coming to repentance!!! If the person places their

faith in the FIRST event? How will death deny their payment for sin?

I believe that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a Great Enough Sacrifice unto God that it is indeed Great Enough to

cover those who repent from taking the mark of the beast, especially those children who did not have much of

a choice. I believe that the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent, that it is great

enough to wash these who repent from the mark of the beast and make them whiter than snow.

Test all things, hold fast to what is True!

In His Incredible Love and Forgiveness,

Michael

[Massorite]

Is this really fair to pre-tribbers?

It is based on a system of interpreting those particular scriptures - what they call a "dispensational hermeneutic" that

allows you to piece a verse here and a verse there to go with Rev. 3:10.

My question is how profitable is this discussion? The days are few and there is much work to be done. True, I believe

the rapture will take place near the last hours of tribulation just before Armageddon, but how is that going to change the

fact if we are almost all going to be martyred (or our grandchildren or later decendants will be) during the tribulation

for our faith. Seventh trumpet or no seventh trumpet, gathering for war (Armageddon) at the seventh trumpet like in

the Old Testament or not, what difference will arguing about this change the fact that with BOTH positions, there will be

those who are giving their lives who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in front of those who have taken the mark on

their right hand and foreheads.

I have a different discussion!!!!!

There will be many babies and many children who are given the mark of the beast (something to do with 666 perhaps)

and will NOT be consenting to full knowledge??? Are they eternally lost??? Or CAN they repent? If we are witnessing

and giving our lives in front of those who are still living IS there still hope for them???

Here is the question. Is the Cross of Jesus Christ a Great Enough Sacrifice for sins, that if a person cuts the mark of

the beast off of their right hand or off of their forehead and trusts that the Blood of Jesus is a Great Enough Spiritual

Detergent to wash them clean from this mark of the beast.... can they be saved?

Will God condemn the world because of technicality during the tribulation? Or, are we called to still preach the gospel

to those who have taken the mark of the beast? Can a person have an underground Christian doctor remove the

mark of the beast and believe that the Cross of Jesus is Great Enough to forgive them for taking the mark and

be saved by their FAITH???

Where is the heart of God the Father on this?? Which event meant more to God the Father? Jesus dying on the

Cross for our sins, or them first taking the mark? and then coming to repentance!!! If the person places their

faith in the FIRST event? How will death deny their payment for sin?

I believe that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a Great Enough Sacrifice unto God that it is indeed Great Enough to

cover those who repent from taking the mark of the beast, especially those children who did not have much of

a choice. I believe that the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent, that it is great

enough to wash these who repent from the mark of the beast and make them whiter than snow.

Test all things, hold fast to what is True!

In His Incredible Love and Forgiveness,

Michael

No it is not fair to pre-tribbers because the system you speak of is a compromised system. They are actually at a disadvantage because there is no clear scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture.

As for the profitability of this discussion I say that any time a brother or a sister realizes that they have been decieved about any nonbiblical doctrinal belief. The God of heaven is blessed because the blinders have been removed from one of His children. I firmly believe that what we believe about the end times will dictate our reaction to the events when they happen and if we believe wrongly or false doctrine then our reaction to these comming events will be the wrong reaction.

[Massorite]

Is this really fair to pre-tribbers?

It is based on a system of interpreting those particular scriptures - what they call a "dispensational hermeneutic" that

allows you to piece a verse here and a verse there to go with Rev. 3:10.

My question is how profitable is this discussion? The days are few and there is much work to be done. True, I believe

the rapture will take place near the last hours of tribulation just before Armageddon, but how is that going to change the

fact if we are almost all going to be martyred (or our grandchildren or later decendants will be) during the tribulation

for our faith. Seventh trumpet or no seventh trumpet, gathering for war (Armageddon) at the seventh trumpet like in

the Old Testament or not, what difference will arguing about this change the fact that with BOTH positions, there will be

those who are giving their lives who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in front of those who have taken the mark on

their right hand and foreheads.

I have a different discussion!!!!!

There will be many babies and many children who are given the mark of the beast (something to do with 666 perhaps)

and will NOT be consenting to full knowledge??? Are they eternally lost??? Or CAN they repent? If we are witnessing

and giving our lives in front of those who are still living IS there still hope for them???

Here is the question. Is the Cross of Jesus Christ a Great Enough Sacrifice for sins, that if a person cuts the mark of

the beast off of their right hand or off of their forehead and trusts that the Blood of Jesus is a Great Enough Spiritual

Detergent to wash them clean from this mark of the beast.... can they be saved?

Will God condemn the world because of technicality during the tribulation? Or, are we called to still preach the gospel

to those who have taken the mark of the beast? Can a person have an underground Christian doctor remove the

mark of the beast and believe that the Cross of Jesus is Great Enough to forgive them for taking the mark and

be saved by their FAITH???

Where is the heart of God the Father on this?? Which event meant more to God the Father? Jesus dying on the

Cross for our sins, or them first taking the mark? and then coming to repentance!!! If the person places their

faith in the FIRST event? How will death deny their payment for sin?

I believe that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a Great Enough Sacrifice unto God that it is indeed Great Enough to

cover those who repent from taking the mark of the beast, especially those children who did not have much of

a choice. I believe that the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent, that it is great

enough to wash these who repent from the mark of the beast and make them whiter than snow.

Test all things, hold fast to what is True!

In His Incredible Love and Forgiveness,

Michael

No it is not fair to pre-tribbers because the system you speak of is a compromised system. They are actually at a disadvantage because there is no clear scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture.

As for the profitability of this discussion I say that any time a brother or a sister realizes that they have been deceived about any non biblical doctrinal belief. The God of heaven is blessed because the blinders have been removed from one of His children. I firmly believe that what we believe about the end times will dictate our reaction to the events when they happen and if we believe wrongly or false doctrine then our reaction to these coming events will be the wrong reaction.

How do you know that the seventh trump will sound at the beginning or just before the beginning of the battle of Armageddon? What scripture tells you that the last trump will sound just before the battle?

You have just verified my point because when you speak of the last trump sounding at the gathering of the armies at Armageddon. You are speaking about something that is not written anywhere in the bible. In fact it is after the sixth trump is sounded that the bible speaks of the two hundred thousand,thousand man army. Not the seventh trump. The bible is not at all clear about the sequence of events regarding the Seals, the Trumpets and the Vials or Bowls. If the seventh trumpet sounds just before the battle of Armageddon or at the gathering of the armies and the battle takes place at the end of the seven years. What happened to the Bowls. My whole point here is this. If it is not written in the bible it is a false doctrinal teaching and we need to put a stop to it if we can. Or at they very least we should speak out against it as the opportunity arises. Jesus did. Any time one of His disciples said something that was dead wrong He corrected them. We should be fallowing Jesus's example at all times and in all things.