Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Breckmin]

Is this really fair to pre-tribbers?

It is based on a system of interpreting those particular scriptures - what they call a "dispensational hermeneutic" that

allows you to piece a verse here and a verse there to go with Rev. 3:10.

My question is how profitable is this discussion? The days are few and there is much work to be done. True, I believe

the rapture will take place near the last hours of tribulation just before Armageddon, but how is that going to change the

fact if we are almost all going to be martyred (or our grandchildren or later decendants will be) during the tribulation

for our faith. Seventh trumpet or no seventh trumpet, gathering for war (Armageddon) at the seventh trumpet like in

the Old Testament or not, what difference will arguing about this change the fact that with BOTH positions, there will be

those who are giving their lives who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in front of those who have taken the mark on

their right hand and foreheads.

I have a different discussion!!!!!

There will be many babies and many children who are given the mark of the beast (something to do with 666 perhaps)

and will NOT be consenting to full knowledge??? Are they eternally lost??? Or CAN they repent? If we are witnessing

and giving our lives in front of those who are still living IS there still hope for them???

Here is the question. Is the Cross of Jesus Christ a Great Enough Sacrifice for sins, that if a person cuts the mark of

the beast off of their right hand or off of their forehead and trusts that the Blood of Jesus is a Great Enough Spiritual

Detergent to wash them clean from this mark of the beast.... can they be saved?

Will God condemn the world because of technicality during the tribulation? Or, are we called to still preach the gospel

to those who have taken the mark of the beast? Can a person have an underground Christian doctor remove the

mark of the beast and believe that the Cross of Jesus is Great Enough to forgive them for taking the mark and

be saved by their FAITH???

Where is the heart of God the Father on this?? Which event meant more to God the Father? Jesus dying on the

Cross for our sins, or them first taking the mark? and then coming to repentance!!! If the person places their

faith in the FIRST event? How will death deny their payment for sin?

I believe that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a Great Enough Sacrifice unto God that it is indeed Great Enough to

cover those who repent from taking the mark of the beast, especially those children who did not have much of

a choice. I believe that the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent, that it is great

enough to wash these who repent from the mark of the beast and make them whiter than snow.

Test all things, hold fast to what is True!

In His Incredible Love and Forgiveness,

Michael

No it is not fair to pre-tribbers because the system you speak of is a compromised system. They are actually at a disadvantage because there is no clear scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture.

As for the profitability of this discussion I say that any time a brother or a sister realizes that they have been deceived about any non biblical doctrinal belief. The God of heaven is blessed because the blinders have been removed from one of His children. I firmly believe that what we believe about the end times will dictate our reaction to the events when they happen and if we believe wrongly or false doctrine then our reaction to these coming events will be the wrong reaction.

How do you know that the seventh trump will sound at the beginning or just before the beginning of the battle of Armageddon? What scripture tells you that the last trump will sound just before the battle?

You have just verified my point because when you speak of the last trump sounding at the gathering of the armies at Armageddon. You are speaking about something that is not written anywhere in the bible. In fact it is after the sixth trump is sounded that the bible speaks of the two hundred thousand,thousand man army. Not the seventh trump. The bible is not at all clear about the sequence of events regarding the Seals, the Trumpets and the Vials or Bowls. If the seventh trumpet sounds just before the battle of Armageddon or at the gathering of the armies and the battle takes place at the end of the seven years. What happened to the Bowls. My whole point here is this. If it is not written in the bible it is a false doctrinal teaching and we need to put a stop to it if we can. Or at they very least we should speak out against it as the opportunity arises. Jesus did. Any time one of His disciples said something that was dead wrong He corrected them. We should be fallowing Jesus's example at all times and in all things.

You can simplify much of it by saying you don't believe in two raptures. You can also ask why the tribulational believers are not allowed to be

part of the "church" because they will somehow miss the rapture. How can the Holy Spirit take Christians to heaven and be so called "taken

out" when you have Christians dying for their faith during the tribulation. There are dozen's of ways to approach it logically. How can the

dead in Christ "rise first" when they are dying afterwards in the tribulation. Are martyred tribulational believers not "dead in Christ?" The

pretribbers accuse the historical pre-milleniumists of saying "Christians are going to go up and then they are going to come down." I've

heard this in sermons over and over "they go up, and then they come down," repeated as though this invalidates the eschatological

position. If someone is in the US or China, and they are traveling to the mount of olives, my point is they are going on the other side

of the world. It is going to be a gathering, not just going up and coming down.

It is much easier to believe that the last trump is the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation. I would say "pray!" And pray as

much as you can before God. Ask God to "protect you from any theology that isn't true" on this point. There are plenty of scriptures

that indicate Christians will be persecuted if you take a literal interpretation of the New Testament. Then you don't have to "dance

around" Matthew 24 and 25 and all of the passages that clearly indicate the one taken is taken first to judgement.

When I say "dance around" I mean claiming New Testament passages are only to the Jews or Israel, and not to the followers of

Christ (Jewish or not) to whom Jesus was speaking to. The fact is, if you had no dispensational hermeneutic to interpret the passages

and you just took them literally, we would all be either post trib or Amill, or some postion that might somehow combine them.

I expect a 1000 year reign, but I will not be surprised if we were somehow wrong on that one verse being an exactism.

Test all things, hold fast to what is true.

In Christ,

Michael

[Massorite]

Is this really fair to pre-tribbers?

It is based on a system of interpreting those particular scriptures - what they call a "dispensational hermeneutic" that

allows you to piece a verse here and a verse there to go with Rev. 3:10.

My question is how profitable is this discussion? The days are few and there is much work to be done. True, I believe

the rapture will take place near the last hours of tribulation just before Armageddon, but how is that going to change the

fact if we are almost all going to be martyred (or our grandchildren or later decendants will be) during the tribulation

for our faith. Seventh trumpet or no seventh trumpet, gathering for war (Armageddon) at the seventh trumpet like in

the Old Testament or not, what difference will arguing about this change the fact that with BOTH positions, there will be

those who are giving their lives who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in front of those who have taken the mark on

their right hand and foreheads.

I have a different discussion!!!!!

There will be many babies and many children who are given the mark of the beast (something to do with 666 perhaps)

and will NOT be consenting to full knowledge??? Are they eternally lost??? Or CAN they repent? If we are witnessing

and giving our lives in front of those who are still living IS there still hope for them???

Here is the question. Is the Cross of Jesus Christ a Great Enough Sacrifice for sins, that if a person cuts the mark of

the beast off of their right hand or off of their forehead and trusts that the Blood of Jesus is a Great Enough Spiritual

Detergent to wash them clean from this mark of the beast.... can they be saved?

Will God condemn the world because of technicality during the tribulation? Or, are we called to still preach the gospel

to those who have taken the mark of the beast? Can a person have an underground Christian doctor remove the

mark of the beast and believe that the Cross of Jesus is Great Enough to forgive them for taking the mark and

be saved by their FAITH???

Where is the heart of God the Father on this?? Which event meant more to God the Father? Jesus dying on the

Cross for our sins, or them first taking the mark? and then coming to repentance!!! If the person places their

faith in the FIRST event? How will death deny their payment for sin?

I believe that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a Great Enough Sacrifice unto God that it is indeed Great Enough to

cover those who repent from taking the mark of the beast, especially those children who did not have much of

a choice. I believe that the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent, that it is great

enough to wash these who repent from the mark of the beast and make them whiter than snow.

Test all things, hold fast to what is True!

In His Incredible Love and Forgiveness,

Michael

No it is not fair to pre-tribbers because the system you speak of is a compromised system. They are actually at a disadvantage because there is no clear scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture.

As for the profitability of this discussion I say that any time a brother or a sister realizes that they have been deceived about any non biblical doctrinal belief. The God of heaven is blessed because the blinders have been removed from one of His children. I firmly believe that what we believe about the end times will dictate our reaction to the events when they happen and if we believe wrongly or false doctrine then our reaction to these coming events will be the wrong reaction.

How do you know that the seventh trump will sound at the beginning or just before the beginning of the battle of Armageddon? What scripture tells you that the last trump will sound just before the battle?

You have just verified my point because when you speak of the last trump sounding at the gathering of the armies at Armageddon. You are speaking about something that is not written anywhere in the bible. In fact it is after the sixth trump is sounded that the bible speaks of the two hundred thousand,thousand man army. Not the seventh trump. The bible is not at all clear about the sequence of events regarding the Seals, the Trumpets and the Vials or Bowls. If the seventh trumpet sounds just before the battle of Armageddon or at the gathering of the armies and the battle takes place at the end of the seven years. What happened to the Bowls. My whole point here is this. If it is not written in the bible it is a false doctrinal teaching and we need to put a stop to it if we can. Or at they very least we should speak out against it as the opportunity arises. Jesus did. Any time one of His disciples said something that was dead wrong He corrected them. We should be fallowing Jesus's example at all times and in all things.

You can simplify much of it by saying you don't believe in two raptures. You can also ask why the tribulational believers are not allowed to be

part of the "church" because they will somehow miss the rapture. How can the Holy Spirit take Christians to heaven and be so called "taken

out" when you have Christians dying for their faith during the tribulation. There are dozen's of ways to approach it logically. How can the

dead in Christ "rise first" when they are dying afterwards in the tribulation. Are martyred tribulational believers not "dead in Christ?" The

pretribbers accuse the historical pre-milleniumists of saying "Christians are going to go up and then they are going to come down." I've

heard this in sermons over and over "they go up, and then they come down," repeated as though this invalidates the eschatological

position. If someone is in the US or China, and they are traveling to the mount of olives, my point is they are going on the other side

of the world. It is going to be a gathering, not just going up and coming down.

It is much easier to believe that the last trump is the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation. I would say "pray!" And pray as

much as you can before God. Ask God to "protect you from any theology that isn't true" on this point. There are plenty of scriptures

that indicate Christians will be persecuted if you take a literal interpretation of the New Testament. Then you don't have to "dance

around" Matthew 24 and 25 and all of the passages that clearly indicate the one taken is taken first to judgement.

When I say "dance around" I mean claiming New Testament passages are only to the Jews or Israel, and not to the followers of

Christ (Jewish or not) to whom Jesus was speaking to. The fact is, if you had no dispensational hermeneutic to interpret the passages

and you just took them literally, we would all be either post trib or Amill, or some postion that might somehow combine them.

I expect a 1000 year reign, but I will not be surprised if we were somehow wrong on that one verse being an exactism.

Test all things, hold fast to what is true.

In Christ,

Michael

The answer to the question you ask is really quite simple. The Holy Spirit is not taken out of the earth until Jesus returns for His bride and the wrath of God is prominent on the earth. And the tribulational believers will not miss the rapture because they will be here for the tribulation and the return of Jesus.

You make my point for me. The dead in Christ will not rise first until after a period of Great Tribulation.

The only logical way to way to approach any subject in the bible is as I have said. If it is not written in the bible it does not exist.

Go to the web site of the Voice of the Martyrs. There you will see that there are already more then 250,000 Christians dying and suffering every year from the same kind of persecution that is described in the word of God. That is supposed to happen during the great tribulation period. They are thrown into prison, tortured, hanged, held over an open flame in an effort to forcibly convert them to Islam. Christian women and young girls get acid thrown into their faces, they get their heads cut off and they are burned alive. They can't get jobs and the governments of many countries discriminate against them.

These are all of the same things and much worse that happened to the millions who suffered and died in the name of Christ during the first three hundred years of the church.

So what makes any Christian any different then those who have already died and those who are now suffering great tribulation as we speak? What do you think they would say if a pre-tribber went to them and explained to them that God said they would be taken out before any great tribulation and that they would not suffer?

I believe that they would think that the pre-tribber is off his or her rocker or deceived or just plain wrong. Because they are living proof of the kind of tribulation that is coming to Christendom on a much larger scale in the future. We are no better then they are and if God see,s fit to let them suffer He can see fit to let us suffer. We must endure to the end no matter what comes our way we must continue in Christ.

There simply is no scriptural proof to back up any end time belief except that we will be here on earth for a period of great tribulation\ and these things are true.

[adimus]

I placed all the relevant passages that deal with the rapture, with specific reguard to their chronological order (the order that they were originally written in) and picked them apart. This is what I came up with. If you find your beliefs challenged, re-examine them in the light of scripture interpreted in the order that God gave it.

The Tribulation

12:1

[OneLight]

I agree with you, yet this reminds me of something I heard last night. I wish I could remember the theologian who said this, but I can't, sorry...but the discussions about the rapture are like those of the Trinity.

Those who enter these discussions with come out bruise and battered, for their faith and beliefs will be challenged and shaken, but still, they come out better off then when they went in.

This is a learning process, if done correctly.

We are to be prepared and ready for whenever He does come for us.

[Massorite]

25."Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

26.Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

27.And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life?

28.And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin,

29.yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.

30.But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you?you of little faith?

31.Therefore do not worry, saying, "What will we eat?' or "What will we drink?' or "What will we wear?'

32.For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

33.But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

34."So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today.

Knowing about tomorrow is not the same as worring about tomarrow. God did not inform us in His word about the events of the future so we could discount, disregard, egnore or hide from what God is telling us. The verses you quoted are very good advise and true. However advocating that bwe should some how disregard or not be concerned about any part of the word of God is very bad advise. God gave us the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ for a reason. He is telling us of the future so we can get our selves prepared both spiritually and in our faith to endure and stay true to the living God to the end in spite of any adversity or tribulation no matter how great it might be.

The bible tells use to study to be proved and we can not be proved if we egnore any portion of the bible. Prophecy was given to us to study and understand.

[Bold Believer]

Will there be a rapture? Of course. Will there be a rapture as defined by the popular teaching of the day? No.

[Shiloh62]

I did a search for this topic, and did find a few interesting threads about it, but from what I could find, none of them were polls which could gauge how many people believed in the Rapture or not. The basic question - Is the Bible clear on the definite Rapture occuring, or is the complete lack of early historical writings, particularly from some of the greatest minds in Christian history, evidence that there are other interpretations of these verses???

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The Rapture is a very common belief among many Christians today. But has it always been so?

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it - Further reading

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza [9] in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[10] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later[11] published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century - Further reading

It appears that 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is very clear that Jesus will rescue us from God's wrath,so this event must take place before the tribulation. Shiloh62

[hayahtowb]

I voted no. God teaches against any rapture.

[Guest thankfullyyours]

Of course there is going to be a rapture. God took Noah and his family out of danger of the flood. God took Lot and his family out of Sodom and Gormorrah. Why wouldnt He take His children out of the great tribulation? He would not leave us behind.

[Floatingaxe]

Of course there is going to be a rapture. God took Noah and his family out of danger of the flood. God took Lot and his family out of Sodom and Gormorrah. Why wouldnt He take His children out of the great tribulation? He would not leave us behind.

Amen!