3 Plain Statements About The Rapture

[Guest man]

truthbringer,

Are you ever going to post those verses?

Just wondering.

[followerofjesus]

What does it matter for christians who are already dead or die tomorrow? No rapture.

[Guest man]

What does it matter for christians who are already dead or die tomorrow? No rapture.

Because we are not dead yet?

And then there's the ones who are yet to be born.

[truthbringer]

Jesus is coming back for a glorious Church, doing outstanding miracles and mighty works of power, A people just like Jesus.

If the devil couldn't deal with one Jesus, how is he going to handle millions Just like Jesus. He wont have to because they that are Living for Jesus, and acting just like Him will go up in the rapture. But the backsliden carnal Christians will be left, [The five unwise virgins] they will have to face what is going to happen.

Can you provide scripture to back this statement?

Yes I can provide scripture,

Ephians 5: 27.

[The oringinal Greek meaning is, "A Church doing outstanding miracles & mighty works of power, One just like Jesus"].

1 John 3: 2. Says it all.

[OneLight]

Yes I can provide scripture,

Ephians 5: 27.

[The oringinal Greek meaning is, "A Church doing outstanding miracles & mighty works of power, One just like Jesus"].

1 John 3: 2. Says it all.

Ephesians 5:27 (King James Version)

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 John 3:2 (King James Version)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This is what the Word tells us. Not even close to what you say. The church is a lukewarm church (Revelation 3:14-22) and many will fall away (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). There will be no latter day rain as many hope for.

[Celt]

Let's settle something so new believers won't misunderstand what this thread is about.

All fellow Christians I know believe in the 'rapture', and that means those with a post-trib view also. It's simply not what all Christians call the gathering to Christ Jesus, because the word 'rapture' is not in the KJV Bible, nor in the Greek manuscripts. It comes from a word derived in Latin to apply to the Greek word 'harpazo'.

The early Church fathers who had direct fellowship with Christ's Apostles and disciples, per their writings, held to Christ's coming after the tribulation. The idea of Christ's coming being prior to the tribulation came from a movement in Great Britain in the 1830's called the "secret rapture", and it was not derived from The Bible by direct "plain statements". John Darby was one of the later leaders of that movement, but not the originator of the doctrine, because he had been influenced by Edward Irving's movement on it. Prior to the 1830's, the Christian Church held to a post-tribulational coming of Christ for 1,800 years! That 1830's movement in Great Britain brought a division in the Church. Then works like the Scofield Bible took the pre-trib idea farther into popularity.

Today the word "secret" is most often left off by those who claim a pre-trib rapture. I've even discovered many pre-trib folks not even familiar with that "secret" word as part of the original pre-trib "secret rapture" idea. The original pre-trib doctrine included the idea of a "secret" coming of Christ to rapture out the saints before the tribulation. The reason was because the pre-trib coming of Christ can't be documented from The Bible using those "plain statements". It must rely on a twist of words out of the Biblical context. A group of clergy even relied on Margaret MacDonald's mixed up Bible quotes when she was on her death bed, which she herself later claimed what she stated didn't feel right. (See Margaret MacDonald's statements documented in Dave MacPherson's book called 'The Incredible Cover-Up').

[Celt]

Any idea that the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 applies to those who refuse to accept a pre-tribulational coming of Christ is terribly wrong. Those who believe that haven't studied their Bible enough. Here's why I say that...

2 Cor 11:1-4

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

(KJV)

What's the apostle Paul warning about in the above? He's warning about deception to "another Jesus" and "another gospel". Who might fulfill that "another Jesus" role in the latter days? That's simple, the antichrist, the same one Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 that is to come prior to the gathering of the saints. What did Paul say that "son of perdition" and "man of sin" is going to do? Paul said he is coming to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, and it will cause a great falling away (apostasy). Paul said Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints won't happen "except" all that false working happens first.

SO HOW DOES PAUL RELATE THAT "CHASTE VIRGIN TO CHRIST" IDEA IN THAT WARNING?

Our Lord Jesus used that 'virgin' metaphor to point to faithful Christians who stay in Him. It's about spiritual marriage to Him as He is our True Husband (spiritually). The idea comes from the Old Testament Books. Paul was using Isaiah 54 to teach that 2 Cor.11 warning about remaining chaste virgins to Christ, and Christ as our Husband.

If a Christian falls away to worship the "another Jesus" in Christ's place, then they are no longer spiritually espoused to Christ as virgins. Those are no longer virgins at all, but are become spiritual harlots gone into false worship. God used that analogy more than once in the Old Testament Books of the prophets. He even applied it to the two houses of Israel as two sister harlots because they had gone into idol worship against Him (Ezekiel 23).

This is why our Lord Jesus had no need to cover that little detail in Matthew 25 about the ten virgins. We were supposed to already know how the Old Testament applied the spiritual virgin analogy. The opposite of a chaste virgin to Christ is a spiritual harlot that goes after another in false worship. That is automatically part of the ten virgins parable He gave in Matthew 25. It means the five foolish virgins represent spiritual harlots who fall away to worship the "another Jesus" in Christ's place. That is specifically what the pre-tribulational "secret rapture" theory is designed to do, to cause a chaste virgin to fall away and accept the first supernatural one coming to earth that does a show of great signs and wonders. That first one coming will be the antichrist, and not our Lord Jesus. That's the order Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2.

[Rick-Parker]

People who believe in the pre-Trib Rapture believe that we will meet Christ in the air and go with him to Heaven. Not Christ coming down and doing anything. To assume that we will fall away because we will believe that the Antichrist is actually Christ is way off base. Mature Christians who are firmly grounded in Christ will not be among those who are deceived. Every Christian will know for sure the events that are forcast to occur when Christ returns after the Trib. We all, as mature Christians, know (or should know) that the timing of the Rapture is not a salvation issue but a doctrinal issue that no one is assured of being correct about until it actually happens. No matter what one believes of the correctness of their own knowledge.

[Celt]

Who are those that are 'left-behind' per Christ?

The idea of being 'left-behind' within the "secret rapture" theory comes from an idea our Lord mentioned about two in the field, one taken, and the other left. If you truly want to know what our Lord Jesus was teaching there, might want to check this study out.

Matt 24:37-51

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Noah and his family were protected in the ark. They were not physically removed from off the earth. In other words, they weren't 'raptured'. Our Lord is teaching about His covering of protection to go through... the flood. At the end of Rev.12 an analogy is used about that flood of Noah's day, but the flood represents lies coming out of the dragon's mouth to destroy His servants, and His servants being protected from the flood of lies. The time that Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters lasted 150 days (five months per old Hebrew reckoning). In Rev.9 the actual time the stinging of the locusts is to last is "five months". The sealing of Christ's elect with God's seal is like that ark of Noah's day.

Matt.24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

I used to struggle with that idea of one being taken and the other left until I read the other version in Luke...

Luke 17:34-37

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

(KJV)

Christ's Apostles then asked Him just 'where' would those first taken be taken to? Our Lord Jesus said wherever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered together. Does that mean being raptured out by Christ Jesus? No. Here's the other version of our Lord's answer to that in Matt.24:28...

Matt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Eagles don't usually go after dead carcases; they kill their prey. But vultures do go after what is already dead. That's about the 'taken', not those who are left-behind in the field (world) still working for Christ. Our Lord is referring to those 'taken' as being dead carcases that will be gathered around by vultures. Sorry if that hurts those who always thought that idea of being the first one taken meant His protection by being raptured out prior to the tribulation. But that's not how our Lord Jesus meant it at all. The very next verses after that also show Christ's coming happens right after that vulture gathering has occurred...

Matt.24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(KJV)

I've heard some pre-trib folks try their darnest to make that carcase and eagles event sound like it's about Christ rapturing them out prior to the tribulation. But that's not what it is at all. It's about a chaste virgin not remaining chaste to Christ, but instead becoming spiritually dead by being gathered by vultures (Christ's enemies). It points to the great apostasy or falling away of the deceived to the antichrist which Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2.

So being the first one 'taken' in the field is not a good thing per our Lord Jesus in His Word.

[Rick-Parker]

The ones left behind after the so called "secret" Rapture, besides unbelievers, are those who claim to be Christians yet Christ does not know them. They are the ones who will evangelize the non-believers. Those saved then are the saints who will have their heads cut off for their faith. They are the ones who's salvation is not assured, as we are, because the Restrainer, the Holy Spirit - the one who lives in us and assures our salvation - will have left the Earth with those of us who are raptured. I pray that the Lord comes now!