When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Celt]

Celt -

When 20 Bible teachers give 20 different interpretations of the End Times, and all 20 of them claim to be given this understanding from the Holy Spirit, why should I believe one over another?

The answer to that only comes AFTER you've checked and verified what each one says within God's Word for yourself. Have you done that with each one, or are you simply using the excuse of not doing so just because there's many that don't all agree with each other? Many reasons exist that we can use to keep from having to go into God's Word for ourselves and become disciplined it.

[nebula]

Celt -

When 20 Bible teachers give 20 different interpretations of the End Times, and all 20 of them claim to be given this understanding from the Holy Spirit, why should I believe one over another?

The answer to that only comes AFTER you've checked and verified what each one says within God's Word for yourself.

Actually, in a less direct way I was trying to ask why I should believe your interpretation above all others?

Have you done that with each one, or are you simply using the excuse of not doing so just because there's many that don't all agree with each other? Many reasons exist that we can use to keep from having to go into God's Word for ourselves and become disciplined it.

People who know me wouldn't bother asking if I searched the Scriptures on my own. Really, Celt, you shouldn't assume that I don't search the Scriptures and don't seek the Holy Spirit for wisdom just because I disagree with you and/or because I learn from life's experiences as well (didn't Jesus often teach from life experiences?).

[Celt]

Celt -

When 20 Bible teachers give 20 different interpretations of the End Times, and all 20 of them claim to be given this understanding from the Holy Spirit, why should I believe one over another?

The answer to that only comes AFTER you've checked and verified what each one says within God's Word for yourself.

Actually, in a less direct way I was trying to ask why I should believe your interpretation above all others?

Have you done that with each one, or are you simply using the excuse of not doing so just because there's many that don't all agree with each other? Many reasons exist that we can use to keep from having to go into God's Word for ourselves and become disciplined it.

People who know me wouldn't bother asking if I searched the Scriptures on my own. Really, Celt, you shouldn't assume that I don't search the Scriptures and don't seek the Holy Spirit for wisdom just because I disagree with you and/or because I learn from life's experiences as well (didn't Jesus often teach from life experiences?).

Oh, actually, I'm not asking you to believe me. I only ask that you believe God's Word as written. The apostle Paul commended those at Berea because they went to God's Word and verified what he was preaching to them. That's what we are to do with everyone that teaches or preaches God's Word. I'm certainly not left out of that.

I can assure you though, that if you do it God's Way, and that is given by example in Isaiah 28, line upon line, precept upon precept, AND you ask our Heavenly Father in Christ's Name for understanding in His Word, He will do His part. That doesn't mean I ever thought you don't go to The Word on your own, or that you don't pray for understanding. Further, if you actually know of 20 other interpretations on the prophecies I've covered that disagree with The Bible, I somehow don't think you would have asked me that kind of question. That's why I asked you if you had taken time to check those out within God's Word. That is a direct answer that you should do the same with what I say.

Your original question was why should you believe what I say, when you can go and find something like 20 other interpretations on a Biblical matter. And I gave you the answer as to how to discern those differences. Also remember, that you came to this thread saying we should dwell on Jesus only, and not the matter of antichrist's coming. I disagreed, and showed you from Scripture, our Lord's words even, that He commanded us to watch in the last days. And most of His Book of Revelation is about that, including a lot of information about a false one coming to deceive. And then you stated that only a prophet could understand Bible prophecy. But what have you shown from Scripture to support your views? I haven't seen much. Thus far, you've only stated your personal opinions, opinions that you apparently got from somewhere else.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Celt

[Celt]

Here's a question for you nebula,

Some believe that Christ's coming already happenned in the days of the early Church, like in the time when the Book of Acts was being fulfilled. How do you know whether that is true or not?

[nebula]

Oh, actually, I'm not asking you to believe me. I only ask that you believe God's Word as written.

That's still a fancy way of saying that you are the sole possessor of the truth.

You see, if you just believe God's word as written, you will see things my way.

You are not saying that, but this is what is implied.

Problem is, you aren't the first who has argued this way, so I'm not biting. In fact, it is a turn-off.

But what have you shown from Scripture to support your views? I haven't seen much. Thus far, you've only stated your personal opinions, opinions that you apparently got from somewhere else.

You have stated your opinions as well. The only difference is that you have picked out different individual trees to make your point; whereas I generalized the whole forest.

[nebula]

Also remember, that you came to this thread saying we should dwell on Jesus only, and not the matter of antichrist's coming.

Celt - if you believe that the rider on the white horse is the A-C, you should at least acknowledge that before he comes forth - Jesus first opens the seal that let him loose.

Do you deny this?

I disagreed, and showed you from Scripture, our Lord's words even, that He commanded us to watch in the last days.

When Jesus said:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (Matt. 24:42)

Was He telling us to watch for the Deceiver or to watch for Him?

And most of His Book of Revelation is about that, including a lot of information about a false one coming to deceive. And then you stated that only a prophet could understand Bible prophecy. But what have you shown from Scripture to support your views? I haven't seen much. Thus far, you've only stated your personal opinions, opinions that you apparently got from somewhere else.

Is there anyone in the Scriptures who correctly interpreted prophecy who was not called as a prophet nor had a prophetic gift? (For the record, apostles have gifts of all 5 ministries - apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher and evangelist.)

Here's a question for you nebula,

Some believe that Christ's coming already happenned in the days of the early Church, like in the time when the Book of Acts was being fulfilled. How do you know whether that is true or not?

Well for one thing, near the end of Revelation it mentions Satan being bound for 1000 years. I would seriously love to hear the evidence these arguers have that Satan has been bound as described.

Jesus prophesied the blossoming of the fig tree. How was that fulfilled 1900-2000 years ago?

Jesus said His coming would be like lighting coming from the east and being visible to the west. As dramatic as Pentecost was, the lightning description does not fit.

Speaking of Pentecost, this was when the Holy Spirit fell on the believers. It wasn't Jesus' return.

Honestly, do I have to write up a theological dissertation when I can narrow it down to "a + b = c"? Or "a + b" does not equal "c"?

Do I have to quote the Scriptures to you I am drawing from instead of trusting you know the Scriptures enough to know what I am referring to?

[kross]

It seems to me that there are to points of view here.

One is from the perspective of looking for JESUS and an end to pain and suffering as someone who is not a citizen of this world looking to go home.

The other is looking for the events that will take place in this world and in this life, focussed on the coming of the man of sin.

I'm not sure.

It is sounding like some are arguing the Tribulation to be under the authority of Satan rather than the authority of God. And that is what is troubling me.

Since I am one of those who believes that GOD exercises HIS soveriegnty and overrides our "free Will" when ever it suits HIS plan to do so, it is easy for me to see that all of it is GOD's doing.

But, there are those who believe that GOD would never override man's free will and thus the evil that is perpetrated by men through the tribulation is a result of free will choices that GOD has seen will be made and allows.

Those two different points of view on what prophecy is results in the different understanding of who is doing what.

Some believe prophecy to be GOD looking down through time to tell us what is going to happen and others see it as GOD telling us what HE is going to do.

[kross]

Also remember, that you came to this thread saying we should dwell on Jesus only, and not the matter of antichrist's coming.

Celt - if you believe that the rider on the white horse is the A-C, you should at least acknowledge that before he comes forth - Jesus first opens the seal that let him loose.

Do you deny this?

I disagreed, and showed you from Scripture, our Lord's words even, that He commanded us to watch in the last days.

When Jesus said:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (Matt. 24:42)

Was He telling us to watch for the Deceiver or to watch for Him?

And most of His Book of Revelation is about that, including a lot of information about a false one coming to deceive. And then you stated that only a prophet could understand Bible prophecy. But what have you shown from Scripture to support your views? I haven't seen much. Thus far, you've only stated your personal opinions, opinions that you apparently got from somewhere else.

Is there anyone in the Scriptures who correctly interpreted prophecy who was not called as a prophet nor had a prophetic gift? (For the record, apostles have gifts of all 5 ministries - apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher and evangelist.)

Here's a question for you nebula,

Some believe that Christ's coming already happenned in the days of the early Church, like in the time when the Book of Acts was being fulfilled. How do you know whether that is true or not?

Well for one thing, near the end of Revelation it mentions Satan being bound for 1000 years. I would seriously love to hear the evidence these arguers have that Satan has been bound as described.

Jesus prophesied the blossoming of the fig tree. How was that fulfilled 1900-2000 years ago?

Jesus said His coming would be like lighting coming from the east and being visible to the west. As dramatic as Pentecost was, the lightning description does not fit.

Speaking of Pentecost, this was when the Holy Spirit fell on the believers. It wasn't Jesus' return.

Honestly, do I have to write up a theological dissertation when I can narrow it down to "a + b = c"? Or "a + b" does not equal "c"?

Do I have to quote the Scriptures to you I am drawing from instead of trusting you know the Scriptures enough to know what I am referring to?

Paul's writing were done after that and called us to watch and wait and gave us the signs of HIS coming.

[Massorite]

It seems to me that there are to points of view here.

One is from the perspective of looking for JESUS and an end to pain and suffering as someone who is not a citizen of this world looking to go home.

The other is looking for the events that will take place in this world and in this life, focussed on the coming of the man of sin.

I'm not sure.

It is sounding like some are arguing the Tribulation to be under the authority of Satan rather than the authority of God. And that is what is troubling me.

Since I am one of those who believes that GOD exercises HIS soveriegnty and overrides our "free Will" when ever it suits HIS plan to do so, it is easy for me to see that all of it is GOD's doing.

But, there are those who believe that GOD would never override man's free will and thus the evil that is perpetrated by men through the tribulation is a result of free will choices that GOD has seen will be made and allows.

Those two different points of view on what prophecy is results in the different understanding of who is doing what.

Some believe prophecy to be GOD looking down through time to tell us what is going to happen and others see it as GOD telling us what HE is going to do.

Why can't it be both? It was God who dictated what is written in the book of Revelation 200 years ago so we know at that time God was looking into our future. In the other case as in to day God is doing what He said He was going to do 2000 years ago. There is no difference. God's word is God's word if He said it then it will be done and the writers of the bible knew it back then and we know it now.

If we have willingly given up our will to do what we want to do then God's will be done in our lives whether His asserts Himself or not. We have turned our selves over to Him to do with as He pleases.

Where in the bible is there biblical support for believing that God over rides the gift of the free will that He gave to us? Does GOD like the fact that there are a million babies killed each year in this country alone through abortions? Of coarse not so why doesn't He simply over ride the laws of the whole country and stop the killing. I mean after all it was the WILL OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED ABORTION INTO LAW AS LEGAL RIGHT. Or does God like abortions? Why doesn't He just step in a end all suffering of the innocent right now? Why doesn't He just end it all now, skip the 1000 years and usher His kingdom now. Why does He let all of the suffering keep on keeping on. Because God doesn't cause the suffering. Man does and since God has given us dominion over the earth and all that is in it He lets us excess's our free will on this earth. If God over rides our free will then the command to have dominion over all of the earth and all that is in it was a lie. Right? Genesis 1:28 "and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over EVERY LIVING THING that moves upon the earth. The word "dominion" in the Hebrew means "to chastise, to tread upon, to trample and to dominate". So where is it written in the bible that God has taken or takes that very same dominion that He gave us in that verse away when He feels like it?

If it is not written in the bible it is not! God made us in His image and He didn't make us robots because He is not a robot.

[Celt]

Oh, actually, I'm not asking you to believe me. I only ask that you believe God's Word as written.

That's still a fancy way of saying that you are the sole possessor of the truth.

You see, if you just believe God's word as written, you will see things my way.

You are not saying that, but this is what is implied.

Problem is, you aren't the first who has argued this way, so I'm not biting. In fact, it is a turn-off.

But what have you shown from Scripture to support your views? I haven't seen much. Thus far, you've only stated your personal opinions, opinions that you apparently got from somewhere else.

You have stated your opinions as well. The only difference is that you have picked out different individual trees to make your point; whereas I generalized the whole forest.

No, what I said is a nice way to say that you're the one that contested the subject of this thread and the Bible coverage here about the coming antichrist, and have failed to backup your ideas per Scripture.

And so far, I haven't seen what "forest" you're talking about, because you haven't deferred to Holy Writ to back up what you say. I've conversed with pagans that at least tried to show me Scripture that supported what they believed more than what you've offered. Anyone can simply say they don't believe this or that, and not give any Biblical support for it. And now because I call you on that you want to get really personal.