When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Larry 2]

Quoting Celt - I understand how you got the idea of the daily sacrifice ending 30 days prior to the 7 years from Dan.12:11. But in Dan.9:27 that false prince takes away the sacrifice and oblation in the middle of the symbolic 'week'. That means after the first 1260 days have transpired.

So I'm seeing Dan.12:11 mean the abomination of desolation is setup 30 days after... the middle of the 'week'. And then per Dan.12:12, those who "waiteth" and come to 45 days after that, to the 1335 days, are said to be blessed.

Since the actual time of 'stinging' by the locust army is to last "five months" (Rev.9), I believe that reckons into it. I believe the last half of the symbolic "one week" has been shortened to "five months", or 150 days. The total period would be 1260 days for the first half of the week, and five months (150 days) for the last half of the week. So the first half 1260 days to the middle of the week, and then 30 days after that to 1290 days for the abomination of desolation to be setup, and then after 45 days the blessed come to the 1335 days, leaving 75 days still to be accounted for.

I don't believe we have to make that 2300 days fit anymore, since Christ said the tribulation would be shortened for His elect's sake.

Quoting Celt one segment at a time - I understand how you got the idea of the daily sacrifice ending 30 days prior to the 7 years from Dan.12:11. But in Dan.9:27 that false prince takes away the sacrifice and oblation in the middle of the symbolic 'week'. That means after the first 1260 days have transpired.

Answer by larry2 - You are right, and these numbers take time to get straight. But the 1260 days until the middle of the week starts 30 days after the sacrifice is taken away because Daniel 12:11 tells us of 1290 days from the taking away of the sacrifice till the middle of the week.

Quoting Celt - So I'm seeing Dan.12:11 mean the abomination of desolation is setup 30 days after... the middle of the 'week'.

Answer by larry2 - Of course this statement didn't take into account the 30 days prior to the start of the 2520 days and I hope it makes sense from my previous answer. We still end up in the middle of the week.

Quoting Celt - And then per Dan.12:12, those who "waiteth" and come to 45 days after that, to the 1335 days, are said to be blessed.

Answer by larry2 - Well now we come to more serious math involved in searching this out (Still all addition and subtraction). To me the most important things to remember is when the sacrifice is taken away, when the middle of the week is, and also the time God shortens those days of tribulation at the end of the tribulation. Let's tackle these things.

You state that you believe the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11 end 45 days after the middle of the week, but that cannot be. That would place those that are blessed right in the worst tribulation ever known after the abomination of desolation is set in the holy place and it continues to become worse and worse until that shortened time prior to the end of the 2520 days. So let's look at another explanation at these 1335 days. Talking of the end of this 1335 days we read in Isaiah 25:9 "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." This is the blessing. We also can look at these following verses. 1 Peter 1:5. "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." And 1 Peter 1:13. "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." And then I might add my thoughts here that Matthew 24:13 says "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This would be those who come to the end of the 1335 days and are physically saved alive and enter now into great blessings of the millennium. The 1335 days actually begin 250 days before the middle of the week due to the antichrist having to reign 3 1/2 years and ends at the revealing of Jesus Christ 75 days after the shortened tribulation period.

Now all of this adds another thing we must consider. Since we said the 2520 day are shortened, again how many days is that? Daniel 8:11-14 tells us that. "11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Let's add it up. From the time the sacrifice is taken away 30 days before the 2520 days of tribulation (Two 3 1/2 periods of 1260 days), there are going to be 2300 days till the sanctuary be cleansed. What is the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary? The antichrist was allowed to reign 3 1/2 years and that ends after 2300 days. Well that presents a problem too. Though first I must tell you that by adding all the 2300 days means that you have to consider the 30 days prior to the 2520 days, then that brings us to a point of the shortened days of the tribulation as being a period of 250 days. Now subtract the 3 1/2 year reign of the antichrist and that means that the antichrist first comes on the scene 250 days prior to the middle of the week. But then that opens up other scripture that comes into line with all these events. In Jeremiah 30:7 we read: "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." And in Matthew 24:21 it says of this second half of the tribulation; that is from the middle of the week, and we are told of that time in Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." How long does Jacob's trouble last then? 1010 days from the middle of the week until the shortened days of the tribulation of 2529 days. If this didn't clear it up a little ask again.

Sacrifice taken away -- 30 days --> Start of 2520 days of tribulation ---> Two witnesses witness for 1260 days till Middle of the week ---> 1010 days till shortened Great tribulation of 250 days ---> 75 days Christ revealed to Israel as their King and a nation born at once in Isaiah 66:8. (This also is that point at the end of the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12) ---> more to come I have looked this over and over and hope I haven't missed something but it happens - Let me also know if this satisfied your last statement (Leaving 75 days still to be accounted for). Celt, many of these things have to be looked at over and over again to have them become familiar and hopefully they do just that.

God bless all in the precious name of Jesus - larry2

[Larry 2]

Larry 2,

FYI:

Per the website of the orthodox Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful movement in Jerusalem, they have already been doing animal sacrifices on passover. They showed a picture of it on their website, on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount. (http://www.templemountfaithful.org/img/pesch_sacrifice_2004.jpg) That pic was not a recent event either. It was in 2003.

I used to have a news clipping about a company in Tennessee called 'Jesus, Inc.' that was sending heifers to Jerusalem for sacrifice. That gives weight to what your pastor was saying.

Thank you very much for this information Celt in Jesus' name - larry2

[Larry 2]

Jesus tells us in matthew 24:

FRAUGHT

Quoting Fraught - i have no clue as to what the 'a of d' is

Answer by larry2 - Dear Fraught, the abomination of desolation is the image of the antichrist set in the holy place.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 we read, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." This is the antichrist and he sets up his image in the holy place and that is the abomination of desolation.

Revelation 17:8. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

"The beast that thou sawest was and is not." That means that at this particular time that John is looking, the beast is not because he has been killed, but he shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and that is the antichrist is who is going to be raised from the grave.

To make a long story short, the antichrist is killed, the false prophet brings him back to life, and the antichrist sets his image in the holy place so that men would worship him.. Revelation 13:15. "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." The beast started off as a seven nation coalition but is now down to one and that is the antichrist. Of course it is Satan giving this power to the false prophet, and because the antichrist would be in the bottomless pit and Satan has been given the key to that place during that time, he opens it and lets the antichrist out at the middle of the week.

Quoting Fraught - what i do know is that the closer we get, the more knowledge is unveiled. it is 'sealed up' until the time of the end, after all. also, there is a difference of 45 days there. i do think that 45-day period is highly significant but as to what? again, i'm clueless.

Answer by larry2 - I gave this answer to Celt concerning those 45 days in a previous reply but will repeat it here for your conveyance. You state that you believe the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11 end 45 days after the middle of the week, but that cannot be. That would place those that are blessed right in the worst tribulation ever known after the abomination of desolation is set in the holy place and it continues to become worse and worse until that shortened time prior to the end of the 2520 days. So let's look at another explanation at these 1335 days. Talking of the end of this 1335 days we read in Isaiah 25:9 "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." This is the blessing. We also can look at these following verses. 1 Peter 1:5. "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." And 1 Peter 1:13. "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." And then I might add my thoughts here that Matthew 24:13 says "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This would be those who come to the end of the 1335 days and are physically saved alive and enter now into great blessings of the millennium. The 1335 days actually begin 250 days before the middle of the week due to the antichrist having to reign 3 1/2 years and ends at the revealing of Jesus Christ 75 days after the shortened tribulation period.

If you need more clarification on this please ask. Thank you in Jesus' name - larry2

[BlindSeeker]

So there is no response to my post #20?

[Xan]

So there is no response to my post #20?

It's hard to argue against such compelling evidence.

[Larry 2]

Dear Fraught, may I ask you who or what you think the "Abomination of Desolation" is? In the middle of the week the antichrist set himself up as he is God, and Jesus referred to that as the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15.

That is your assumption.

Here is history and the words of one who was an eye witness to the destruction of the temple and also testified that Jesus was the Christ -

Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 1 - THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS;

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

para. 3 - . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, "O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! 'For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction." But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition.

Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1 - HOW TITUS . . . PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER].

And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

Quoting Blindseeker - That is your assumption. Here is history and the words of one who was an eye witness to the destruction of the temple and also testified that Jesus was the Christ -

Response by larry2 - I read this statement from Josephus' writing you provided. "Which I esteem (That is to think highly of) the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner." This is second hand information it seems to me that was explained to him, though I haven't read all his writings.

Just reading a little on Josephus I find he was a traitor to his own countrymen and collaborated with the enemy, so being that fearful does it seem he would have been an eyewitness? Of course this is an assumption and you and I may have done worse. Next I read no where that he was a believer, but one of the nation that delivered Jesus to the cross. You're quoting one that can't even see or understand the things of God because John 3:3 tells us. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Unless I see proof that Rome was the people of the prince in Daniel 9:26 that was to destroy the city and the sanctuary, and even then I see no evidence of a covenant made with them like described in Daniel 9:27 I will continue with my present thinking that this is talking about a seven year tribulation with all this to happen in the midst of that week to come. I'm sorry I somehow missed your reply because I try to answer them all. Thanks for bring it to my attention in Jesus' name - larry2

[Larry 2]

So there is no response to my post #20?

It's hard to argue against such compelling evidence.

Response to Xan - I'm very sorry to see this type of sarcasm or mockery, and on top of that I did not believe that we were arguing by just presenting our views of what we believe. The reason I did not answer in your expected time frame to start with is that I somehow missed the response of Blindseeker, as I do try to respond to all posts. I attempt to research and use scripture to substantiate what I say or I wouldn't believe it or say it.

Thanks for your opinion in the name of Jesus - larry2

[Xan]

William, sarcasm is a foriegn language on these boards!

[BlindSeeker]

I read this statement from Josephus' writing you provided. "Which I esteem (That is to think highly of) the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner." This is second hand information it seems to me that was explained to him, though I haven't read all his writings.

Just reading a little on Josephus I find he was a traitor to his own countrymen and collaborated with the enemy, so being that fearful does it seem he would have been an eyewitness? Of course this is an assumption and you and I may have done worse. . .

It is evident you are uninformed about the destruction of the government structure of the nation of Israel, Jerusalem, the temple and have never taken the time study such. It is amazing that would be neglected by any believer who would endeavor to correctly understand (let alone expound on) the prophecies given through a people who were so harshly judged by God.

The city was divided in to three seditions which savagely fought against each other and robbed and killed the innocent for food since they burned each others resources. It was an all out civil war; more people were killed by their own country men than by the Romans. Everybody who could did try to flee the city since they feared their own countrymen more than the Romans . . . that is not being a traitor.

Josephus labor as a negotiator extensively to get the Jews to be reasonable before the Romans (who used amazing restraint) would be forced to come in like a flood and wage an all out war on them. The Romans had respect for the Jewish Temple and did not want to see it destroyed . . . but God did.

Next I read no where that he was a believer, but one of the nation that delivered Jesus to the cross. You're quoting one that can't even see or understand the things of God because John 3:3 tells us. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Josephus

[Larry 2]

William, sarcasm is a foriegn language on these boards!

Thanks Xan, and though I believe your stance concerning these times of the tribulation is happening during our present time that I've represented here on this thread as a seven year period, I welcome your or anyone's elses input as to where all the different prophesies of days given fit into our present age if not in the seven years of tribulation I believe it to be.

Again, thanks in Jesus' name - larry2