END times questions

[kross]

OK,

Fo0r those who are joining into this discussion late, Let me explain what i believe and what Ezekial believes.

I believe that, at the end of the tribulation, JESUS is coming to Earth to gather HIS saints to HIMSELF to take them to Heaven to live in the house that HE said HE was building for them (REV 20:4-6, John 14:2-4). After HE reigns for 1,000 years in Heaven, HE and the saints and the New Jerusalem will come to live on the New Earth.

Not all the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation, only the army that comes out to resist will be destroyed (REV 19:19-21) Satans second army will be made up of those who took the mark but did not join the army. They will make war on the Saints ( Israel after accepting their Messiah) and the beloved city. Fire from Heaven will then consume them and Satan goes in the pit.

Ezekiel Believes that all the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation, JESUS and the glorified saints will be on the Earth and Israel. HE believes that Satans big army will come from Israel.

We have gone back and forth on this issue in this string and if you read all of it, you will have a grasp of all that has been said. It is a good study in how the same scriptures can be used in completely different ways. It has been good for me in my studies.

Luck with that.

Peace

K.Ross

[kross]

OK, for the record, I am a post-trib guy. That is never going to be in question.

I think the passages about the times of Noah refer to the marrying and giving in marriage and carrying on as normal. I do not think JESUS is saying that destruction will come upon them in this passage, I do think HE is saying that HIS appearing will come upon em in the same way as the flood.

It also seems clear in Rev 20 that this is in Heaven. The great white throne judgement is also in Heaven. JESUS said HE was going to prepare a place in HIS FATHERS house. HE also said HE would return for them that where HE is they would be also. The implication in context with all the scripture around it is that HE prepared a place in Heaven for them and that HE will return to take them to that place, not join them here.

I am confident that JESUS and the saints will come to the new Earth with the New Jeruselem, which is called "The Bride". This may indicate more than just a structure.

So, there is a difference of interpretation and understanding.

I can not take your understanding all the way to a great army for Satan to use at the end of the 1,000 years. If JESUS and the saints are on the Earth, how is Satan going to raise an army greater than the "Sands on the seashore"? Of all the other issues, why would JESUS save them and then let them be Satan's army. If these are the glorified saints, how does this happen?

Gog and Magog are nations that are not Jewish, how can Satan call an army from these nations if the only ones on Earth are glorified saints and Israel?

As i have said, I must study more.

The thing is it says in Luke 17 verse 27 speaking of Noah's day the flood came and destroyed them all and in verse 29 speaking of Lot's fire and brimstone rained down and destroyed them all, then in verse 30 it says Even thus will it be when the Son of man is revealed. There is no question that ALL of the wicked will be destroyed at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Satan does not deceive the glorified saints, he tempts the mortals that are born during the Millennium here on earth.

Jesus does say He is going to heaven to prepare a place and that place is New Jerusalem, but He never says that when He returns He was taken us to heaven. He said, ''I will return and gather you to myself that where I AM you may be also''. So If Jesus is returning to earth to destroy the wicked and set up His Millenniual Kingdom then that is where we will be also. If Jesus is going back to heaven then that is where we will be. The thing is I cannot find any scriptural evidence that Jesus returns to heaven after returning to earth to destroy the wicked after He sets up His Millenniual Kingdom. If you have scriptural evidence for that view it would interest me to see it.

Where do these mortals come from?

They are the descendants of the Jewish people that go into the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

So, the Jewish people have their Messiah living with them on Earth, are having a wonderful 1,000 years of peace, and then they turn on HIM in rediculously large numbers.

This does seem to deny the everlasting covenant GOD has with them

By the way, the nations of GOG and Magog are not of Jewish decent., So, the army can not be Jwish people.

The Jews have continually turn against God through out their entire history, not all will turn on God and the remnant that remains faithful will enter in to eternity with the glorified saints to spend it with Christ in New Jerusalem.

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall.

The Jewish people have turned away from GOD when HE was not imediately evident. You are saying that their Messiah, JESUS, will be there with them, with a few million saints in glorified bodies, all sitting on thrones. This is not the same scenario as in the old testament.

Like when God was leading through the desert by a cloud by day and fire by night when He parted the red sea, when He made water come out of the rock and sent manna from heaven. He was evident then yet they still made a Calf of gold to worship. Yes I think those that are born during the Millennium and know nothing else but the presence of God will be deceived by satan, just as Adam and Eve who knew nothing else but the presence of God let satan deceive them.

But you still haven't dealt with Gog and Magog

[kross]

This may help and it may not, but what might be ecaping your mind while you try and logically construct how anyone that has spent 1,000 years with Jesus (Jews or otherwise) could turn against Him when satan is released from his opit is that humans are inherently evil and that will not change during the Millennium. Satan will be bound but the flesh will not, All sin cannot be blamed on satan much of what we do is the fulfillment of our own flesh, and although satan will be bound during the Millennium mortal men will not be sinless, and their nature will still be evil, satan will not have a problem constructing an army to rage against Christ and His saints. Whether we are refering to descendants of Jews only or all peoples.

Where is the teptation to sin going to come from? Remember, the first sin was as a result of the temptor. The wicked are all gone, only the undefiled remain and you still have to let me know where all those thrones are going to be.

I understand that you see it the way you see it, but these will be even more steady signs and no temptation from Satan. It is less important than most of the issues. Knowing that the rapture will be at the end of the tribulation is the biggie, all else will not effect things much. It will all be good after that.

Of Course, JESUS could originate the fire from here if HE were here instead of it originating from Heaven.

[kross]

But you still haven't dealt with Gog and Magog

What about Gog and Magog?

These are nations of non-jewish origins that Satan gets some of his army from. Isael can not be Gog and Magog.

[kross]

OK, for the record, I am a post-trib guy. That is never going to be in question.

I think the passages about the times of Noah refer to the marrying and giving in marriage and carrying on as normal. I do not think JESUS is saying that destruction will come upon them in this passage, I do think HE is saying that HIS appearing will come upon em in the same way as the flood.

It also seems clear in Rev 20 that this is in Heaven. The great white throne judgement is also in Heaven. JESUS said HE was going to prepare a place in HIS FATHERS house. HE also said HE would return for them that where HE is they would be also. The implication in context with all the scripture around it is that HE prepared a place in Heaven for them and that HE will return to take them to that place, not join them here.

I am confident that JESUS and the saints will come to the new Earth with the New Jeruselem, which is called "The Bride". This may indicate more than just a structure.

So, there is a difference of interpretation and understanding.

I can not take your understanding all the way to a great army for Satan to use at the end of the 1,000 years. If JESUS and the saints are on the Earth, how is Satan going to raise an army greater than the "Sands on the seashore"? Of all the other issues, why would JESUS save them and then let them be Satan's army. If these are the glorified saints, how does this happen?

Gog and Magog are nations that are not Jewish, how can Satan call an army from these nations if the only ones on Earth are glorified saints and Israel?

As i have said, I must study more.

The thing is it says in Luke 17 verse 27 speaking of Noah's day the flood came and destroyed them all and in verse 29 speaking of Lot's fire and brimstone rained down and destroyed them all, then in verse 30 it says Even thus will it be when the Son of man is revealed. There is no question that ALL of the wicked will be destroyed at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Satan does not deceive the glorified saints, he tempts the mortals that are born during the Millennium here on earth.

Jesus does say He is going to heaven to prepare a place and that place is New Jerusalem, but He never says that when He returns He was taken us to heaven. He said, ''I will return and gather you to myself that where I AM you may be also''. So If Jesus is returning to earth to destroy the wicked and set up His Millenniual Kingdom then that is where we will be also. If Jesus is going back to heaven then that is where we will be. The thing is I cannot find any scriptural evidence that Jesus returns to heaven after returning to earth to destroy the wicked after He sets up His Millenniual Kingdom. If you have scriptural evidence for that view it would interest me to see it.

Where do these mortals come from?

They are the descendants of the Jewish people that go into the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

So, the Jewish people have their Messiah living with them on Earth, are having a wonderful 1,000 years of peace, and then they turn on HIM in rediculously large numbers.

This does seem to deny the everlasting covenant GOD has with them

By the way, the nations of GOG and Magog are not of Jewish decent., So, the army can not be Jwish people.

The Jews have continually turn against God through out their entire history, not all will turn on God and the remnant that remains faithful will enter in to eternity with the glorified saints to spend it with Christ in New Jerusalem.

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall.

The Jewish people have turned away from GOD when HE was not imediately evident. You are saying that their Messiah, JESUS, will be there with them, with a few million saints in glorified bodies, all sitting on thrones. This is not the same scenario as in the old testament.

Like when God was leading through the desert by a cloud by day and fire by night when He parted the red sea, when He made water come out of the rock and sent manna from heaven. He was evident then yet they still made a Calf of gold to worship. Yes I think those that are born during the Millennium and know nothing else but the presence of God will be deceived by satan, just as Adam and Eve who knew nothing else but the presence of God let satan deceive them.

In both cases, it was after a period of not seeing GOD. Moses was gone for 40 days. That is a long time to camp. GOD seemed to visit with Adam and Eve but there was obviously time when Satan was able to talk with her undisturbed. Glorified saints in brilliant white clothing by the millions and JESUS too, if yu say so.

[kross]

At the end of Tribulation, the Word tells us there will be a great war.

Revelation 20:7-9

When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations

[kross]

But you still haven't dealt with Gog and Magog

What about Gog and Magog?

These are nations of non-jewish origins that Satan gets some of his army from. Isael can not be Gog and Magog.

Show me scriptures to support that, that is an interesting twist, I would like to see where Jews do not colonise Gog or Magog during the Millennium, but that they are heathen nations.

Gog and Magog are decendants of Assyria. Not in the Bible, in world history. Referred to by daniel and in REV 20

Edited August 31, 2008 by kross

[Floatingaxe]

At the end of Tribulation, the Word tells us there will be a great war.

Revelation 20:7-9

When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations

[Celt]

The way I read the Rev.20 events, the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is on earth.

Rev 20:9

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(KJV)

Rev 5:9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(KJV)

The Milennium Temple in Ezekiel from which Christ reigns is also shown to be on earth (Ezek.40-48).

Christ is returning to this earth for His "thousand years" reign. Zechariah 14 mentions nations that are left of the ones that will have come upon Jerusalem in the last days.

And the pit of hell is not the same thing as the "lake of fire"; hell will go into the "lake of fire" and be destroyed (Rev.20:14-15).

So what I'm understanding, is that Christ returns with the dead saints that are resurrected at His coming, and they are joined with the saints that are still alive on earth when He comes. Then Christ and those reign with Him on earth over the nations. The wicked that are not destroyed are on the earth too, but outside the "beloved city" and "camp of the saints". Satan is loosed after the thousand years and leads those wicked to go up against the "beloved city", and they are destroyed by God's Fire protecting the "beloved city" on earth.

[followerofjesus]

thanks I think I get it