Was the Church Forseen in the OT?

[Celt]

Second View: Israel and the Church are Different

The other view, we believe, is clearly taught in the New Testament, but it has been suppressed throughout most of Church history. This view is that the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused. In fact, the Church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the Day of Pentecost after Christ

Edited September 24, 2008 by Celt

[Isaiah-smiles]

Yes, Christ returns to actually END the "great tribulation". That's His one and only return, and the ONLY time His saints are gathered to Him. It's on the 7th trumpet sounding as written in Rev.11:15. And only His saints that overcame going THROUGH the great tribulation will be in that number which reigns on earth with Him with a rod of iron during the Milennium (Rev.20:4; Rev.15:2; Rev.14:1-5).

WHaaat??!! ''Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." (Isaiah 14:1-5)

This is the Lord coming back to protect Israel. Take note that the "Saints" are with him, not the ones being rescued!!

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thes. 4:15-17)

Here is the church to be raptured and meet Christ IN THE AIR, in the clouds, not on the mount of Olives! So, between these scriptures, are you trying to tell me that the church is going to meet the Lord in the air and then all of a sudden....BAM! we're on the mount of olives rescueing Israel??!! Your Eschatology is all messed up! Also, Paul instructs the CHURCH to comfort one another with these words. How are we (the church) are suppose to find comfort in these words if we're to face the Tribulation!!??

Also, explain to me on what the "Abomination of Desolation" is suppose to be?? It has all to do with the anti-christ sitting in the Temple (which will be on the Temple mount in Jerusalem) declaring that he is God. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (the holy of holies), (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea (the Jews/ Israel) flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matt. 24:15-21)

This is the "abomination of desolation", which will occur during the Great Tribulation! "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Daniel's people, not the church) and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (Nehemiah/Ezra) unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks (or actually 69 weeks/counting the 7 weeks before) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself (He is cut off for our sake/He dies in our place): and the people of the prince (the anti-christ) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (the Romans are the ones who destroyed the City and Sancturary 1); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (The missing 70th week/The Tribulation): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (refer to; 2 Thes.2:4) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:24-27)

Lets read more about this abomination of desolation; "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (in the clouds/in the air), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (an apostasy from the faith in the gospel 2), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth3, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:3 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish (this is the unbelieving world); because they received not the love of the truth, (because they received not the gospel that they might be saved 2) that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (it is the unbelieving world that receives the delusion), that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thes. 2:1-12)

One question Celtic, are you one of the following? Jehovah witness, Mormon or Seventh day Aventist? I just want to know which false doctrine I am dealing with?

1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus

2 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor.15:1-4)

3 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses (the saints/the church/the bride of Christ), clothed in fine linen, white and clean (the church/ the Bride of Christ/ remember the marriage feast earlier?). 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev.19:11-20)

Edited September 28, 2008 by Isaiah-smiles

[Celt]

None of the above, Isaiah-smiles. But I know what false doctrines you're on, even the false "secret rapture" theory which came out of 1830's Great Britain, a doctrine of man that never was preached in among christians for over 1800 years, not until a certain group of men started it up in Great Britain.

How does Paul mean this "caught up" experience?

2 Cor 12:2-4

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

(KJV)

The gathering to Christ of His saints is from two different areas, those saints that sleep in Jesus that are dead, and the saints that are still alive on earth at His second coming. That gathering will be to the Holy Land to the "camp of the saints" on earth written in Rev.20.

And how is it that our Lord Jesus gave this order for the ONE TIME harvest at His one and only coming? How is it some want to add to that Scripture and put another time of rapture in it prior to the tribulation, as if there were two gatherings of His saints at two different times?

Matt 25:31-34

31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

(KJV)

There's two gatherings in that example alright. The first gathering is of the wicked, the second is of Christ's saints still alive on earth when He comes.

Matt 13:40-43

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

(KJV)

Matt 13:49-50

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(KJV)

[Rick-Parker]

None of the above, Isaiah-smiles. But I know what false doctrines you're on, even the false "secret rapture" theory which came out of 1830's Great Britain, a doctrine of man that never was preached in among christians for over 1800 years, not until a certain group of men started it up in Great Britain.

How does Paul mean this "caught up" experience?

2 Cor 12:2-4

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

(KJV)

The gathering to Christ of His saints is from two different areas, those saints that sleep in Jesus that are dead, and the saints that are still alive on earth at His second coming. That gathering will be to the Holy Land to the "camp of the saints" on earth written in Rev.20.

And how is it that our Lord Jesus gave this order for the ONE TIME harvest at His one and only coming? How is it some want to add to that Scripture and put another time of rapture in it prior to the tribulation, as if there were two gatherings of His saints at two different times?

Matt 25:31-34

31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

(KJV)

There's two gatherings in that example alright. The first gathering is of the wicked, the second is of Christ's saints still alive on earth when He comes.

Matt 13:40-43

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

(KJV)

Matt 13:49-50

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(KJV)

[Celt]

How are we gathered to Christ?

Since you haven't explained it per Scripture, I will go further in it. The carnally minded will not understand this, but will continue to think with their fleshy mind.

In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul said this:

2 Cor 5:1-9

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The apostle Paul is talking different types of bodies. The "earthly house" is our flesh body. If it is "dissolved", meaning no more, then we still "have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." Not made with hands is an expression to show that other body is not a flesh type body. Paul called it a "spiritual body" and the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Our soul within ourselves groans to be clothed with that spiritual body from Heaven (meaning the Heavenly dimension).

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Again, within ourselves our soul groans so that mortality might be swallowed up of Life. In 1 Cor.15, Paul made a distinction between something that is mortal which must put on immortality to have eternal Life through Christ Jesus. That was the soul he was talking about. He also said corruption must put on incorruption, pointing to the change from our flesh body to a spiritual Heavenly body.

5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

(KJV)

Paul explains that to be absent from our body of flesh means to be with The Lord. No 'dead in the ground' stuff here. Our Lord Jesus showed us what happens at flesh death in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. The saints being asleep expression Paul used is only to show that the dead saints are absent from the flesh body, and with The Lord.

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul mentioned one who was "caught up" to "paradise" to the "third heaven". Paul said he didn't know whether it was in the body, or out of the body, that God knew which. I believe Paul was speaking of himself, since he was once stoned and left for dead. If it wasn't Paul, we still know the guy lived and didn't die, otherwise he couldn't have told of the experience.

That "caught up" phrase in 2 Cor.12:2 is the Greek word 'harpazo', the same Greek word used in the "caught up" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. It is popularly called "the rapture", even though the word 'rapture' is not in The Bible nor the Greek manuscripts.

That Greek word 'harpazo' means to sieze or take by force. Whatever is siezed has no control in the matter. That's the idea Paul was also showing in 2 Cor.12 about that one caught up to Paradise, to the third heaven. The "third heaven" is not a level in Heaven, it's about the third and last Heavenly age, which is God's future Eternity.

So just what happened with that one in 2 Cor.12? What part of his being was "caught up"? I assume it was Paul speaking of when he was stoned and left for dead. That would mean his flesh body was laying on the ground, but something else was caught up to Paradise. Yet he still didn't die, but why?

It's because in Ecclesiastes 12 we are told that a "silver cord" exists, and when it is severed, the flesh body goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That "silver cord" represents a link between our flesh body and our spirit (self, or soul intellect). But note Paul taught there in 2 Cor.5 that if our "earthly house" is dissolved, we still have a building from God which is eternal in the Heavenly. That means a dwelling for our spirit or soul intellect to dwell in, but in the Heavenly. Paul called it a "spiritual body" in 1 Cor.15. He also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So we know that "spiritual body" is not a flesh body like we have today, but it looks, feels, and operates similar to a flesh body and can live upon this earth. It is an angelic type body, since Christ said in the resurrection they are as the angels of God in Heaven (Matt.22:30).

In 1 Cor.15, Paul taught that to have eternal Life through Christ Jesus, one's soul must put on immortality, and their corruptible body (flesh) must put on a body of incorruption ("spiritual body"). That's two types of changes we must go through to live with Christ Jesus in His Eternal Kingdom, one for our type of house, and another change for our soul to put on immortality through Christ. The phrase "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:53-54 does not apply to the body, but to the soul. Everyone's soul is 'mortal' and liable to perish in the "lake of fire" unless they believe on The Savior Jesus Christ. The idea of becoming a "new creature" through Christ is another way Paul taught this idea. Being born again of The Spirit is also another way which our Lord Jesus taught this idea.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Paul is speaking of the very same event he mentioned in 1 Corithians 15 that occurs at the sound of the trump. In 1 Cor.15 he gave more detail, since that chapter is specifically about 'how' we are gathered to Christ at His coming. Both of those Scripture examples go together, and must be studied together.

1 Cor 15:49-54

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

(KJV)

In the 1 Cor.15 example, Paul cover the subject of the saints that sleep in Jesus also. The same distinction made in 1 Thess.4 is there also. The same trump example that occurs with the resurrection he mentions in both examples also. But in 1 Cor.15 he is more specific that those still alive on earth shall all... be changed, even at the twinkling of an eye. He also gives the order of that trumpet by calling it the "last trumpet", meaning the final one to sound. He also quotes from Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up in victory... which Scripture also tells us how Paul meant that all shall be changed at a twinkling of an eye:

Isa 25:6-9

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.

(KJV)

The "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations" is an expression for the change Paul spoke of, the Heavenly dimension being revealed to all peoples, all nations on earth. It will happen at an instant.

1Thes 4:16-17

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(KJV)

So, the "caught up" idea in 1 Thess.4:17 is about that change at the twinkling of an eye Paul mentioned on the "last trump", and all alive shall be changed, all nations, all peoples. It is the Heavenly dimension being revealed on earth. The saints that are asleep will return with Christ, and we shall be joined with them and go... where? To live up in the clouds? No.

Zech 14:1-5

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.

(KJV)

The expression of "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee" means in Jerusalem is where all the saints still on earth will be gathered to, for that's where Christ's feet touch down FIRST to form that great valley in Jerusalem. Then we flee to the valley of the mountains. The saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming do not go up, and then back down like some bouncing ball. The idea of being "caught up" into the clouds in the air is an expression for the change to our "spiritual body" and the Heavenly being revealed on earth, and being siezed over to the Holy Land to that "valley of the mountains" where Christ returns to.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Celt

[Isaiah-smiles]

RAPTURE OF THE BRIDE

There are many different opinions regarding biblical eschatology (end-time events). This post deals with the "rapture"; a supernatural taking-up of Christians to be with the Lord before His wrath is poured out.

This post is to offer some information that may support a rapture before the tribulation period. As we all know, God uses symbolism very often in scripture to convey a spiritual meaning. We also know that God calls the church "The Bride" or "Bride of Christ" (Ephesians 5:22-33, 2 Corinthians 11:2-3, Jeremiah 2:1, Hosea 2:16). It is in this context that we look at the Jewish wedding customs of that day and analyze any likenesses with the church bride.

...In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

ANALOGY OF THE JEWISH WEDDING CUSTOM

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was Betrothal. This established the marriage covenant.

Jesus established an eternal covenant through His blood. His Holy Spirit is the "ring" (if you will) - sealing the bride with a guarantee that He will return for her. (Hebrews 13:20, Luke 22:20, *Ephesians 1:13)

The Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father's house and traveling to the home of the prospective bride.

So Jesus left His Father's house in heaven and traveled to the earth; the home of His prospective Church (bride) [John 6:32-33;51]. Jesus came to earth to obtain the church (bride) through the establishment of a covenant.

On the same night Jesus made His promise in John 14, He instituted communion. In this communion, he passed the cup of wine to the disciples saying: "This cup is the new covenant in My blood." (1 Corinthians 1:25)

At the home of the prospective bride, the Jewish bridegroom would negotiate with her father to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride.

Jesus paid a price to purchase the church (bride). The price He paid was His life blood. (Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was established, and the young man and woman were regarded as husband and wife. From that moment on, the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified; set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.

So the church is said to be sanctified and set apart exclusively for Christ. (Ephesians 5:25-27, 1 Corinthians1:2; 6:11, Hebrews 10:10;13:12)

As a symbol of the covenant relationship, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.

The cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the church (bride). (1 Corinthians11:25)

After the marriage covenant was established, the groom would leave the bride's home and return to his father's house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of 12 months.

Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father's house, so Jesus left the earth, the home of the church (bride) and returned to His Father's house in heaven after He'd established the new covenant and risen from the dead. The church is currently living in this period of separation awaiting Christ's return. (John 6:62; 20:17)

During this period of separation between the Jewish bride and groom, the bride would use this time to gather her trousseau and prepare for her married life. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father's house where he would bring his bride.

Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father's house, Christ as been preparing living accommodations for the church in His Father's house in heaven. (John 14:2)

At the end of the period of separation, the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night.

So Christ will come to take the church (bride) to live with Him at the end of the separation period. (John 14:3)

The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the Jewish groom's father's house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride.

Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the father's house to the bride's house, so the taking of the church (bride) will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from heaven to the home of the church. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

Although the Jewish bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.

So the church (bride) does not know the exact time of Christ's coming for her. (Matthew 25:1-13, Revelation 3:2-3;11)

As a result of the bride not knowing the exact time the groom would come for her, the groom's arrival would be preceded by a shout. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

So Christ's arrival will be preceded by a shout. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

After the Jewish groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride's home to the groom's father's house.

Similarly, the church (bride) will return with Christ to His Father's house in heaven after she is taken from the earth to meet Him. (1 Thessalonians 4:17, John 14:2-3)

Upon arrival there, the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

In the same manner, Christ and the church (bride) will find the soul of Old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls serve as the wedding guests. (Rev. 19:7,8)

Shortly after arrival, the bride (remaining veiled) and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah)

While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time ~ consummating the marriage that was covenanted earlier.

Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival and thereby consummating the marriage that was covenanted earlier, Christ and the church (bride) will experience spiritual union after their arrival in heaven; thereby consummating their relationship covenanted earlier.

After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber. These people would in turn pass this news on to the wedding guests. Upon hearing this good news, the wedding guests would begin the feast and make merry for the next 7 days.

During those 7 days of the wedding festivities (sometimes called "the 7 days of huppah"), the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber.

In correspondence with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for 7 days after arrival at the groom's father's house, the church (bride) will remain hidden for a period of 7 years after arrival in heaven.

While the 7 year tribulation period is taking place on earth, the church will be hidden from the sight of those living on the earth.

At the conclusion of the 7 days, the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.

So Christ will bring the Church (Bride) out of heaven in His second coming at the conclusion of the 7-year tribulation period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true Church (Bride) is. (Colossians 3:4, Jude 14)

Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain. (Isaiah 26:20)

[AnotherTraveler]

Isaiah the prophet certainly was bold in referring to the gentiles (as to the question, "Was the church foreseen in the OT?)

Why has this become a Rapture thread?

[Isaiah-smiles]

Isaiah the prophet certainly was bold in referring to the gentiles (as to the question, "Was the church foreseen in the OT?)

Why has this become a Rapture thread?

You are absolutely right Traveler. This has strayed quite away from the original thread. I think enough has been said on the rapture.

[Celt]

The reason this thread has strayed to the subject of Christ's return is because some folks cannot stay in The Word without injecting the idea of the "secret rapture" theory, simply because they are so spiritually drunken in its false assumptions. The idea of this thread is whether Christ's Church was forseen in the OT. The reason why some cannot fathom the Church in the OT per Scripture is because of the "secret rapture" doctrines. One of the reasons for developing the idea of a separation between God's Israel and Christ's Church back in Scofield's days was to help prop up the false "secret rapture" doctrine, simply because those on the doctrine are taught that national Israel is left behind on earth while the Church is 'raptured' out prior to the great tribulation.

Scripture is clear that Christ's second coming is on the "last trump", which is the 7th angel sounding of Rev.11:15. That's also when the resurrection occurs and all nations shall be changed at the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor.15; 1 Thess.4; Isaiah 25). Moreover, Christ gave us three woes in Revelation to note that timing of the "last trump" Paul was talking about. On the 2nd woe are tribualtion events, like the angel of the bottomless pit ascending to Jerusalem to kill God's "two witnesses" (Rev.11). But at the coming of the 3rd woe in Rev.11 is given the events of God's two witnesses being raised and Christ's return to Jerusalem with a great earthquake in that same hour. That also links with Zech.14. That's direct Scripture evidence for Christ's post-tribulational coming with those 3 woes, because they cannot be taken out of order, so analogies like the Jewish wedding feast, and false ideas about separation between God's Israel and Christ's Church can not overwrite what is already written.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Celt