Question for fellow believers

[hillsong_girl]

If I put this in the wrong place I apologize. But I do have a question for all the fellow believers' in Christ out there.

What I don't understand is how someone can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support Pro-choice and homosexuality?? I do understand that we are supposed to love others' as Christ would, but loving them and supporting and backing up choices that are obviously not Biblical are two different things to me??

Thank you all who can help me out here!

I have to be honest here. I personally am not pro-choice, but at the same time I have compassion for women who have been raped for example. Should they be denied the choice of abortion? This is a hard question for me. I don't believe in abortion, but I don't believe in forcing a raped woman to be pregnant with a product of rape. It is very hard, and something I need to pray on I guess.

[kross]

If I put this in the wrong place I apologize. But I do have a question for all the fellow believers' in Christ out there.

What I don't understand is how someone can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support Pro-choice and homosexuality?? I do understand that we are supposed to love others' as Christ would, but loving them and supporting and backing up choices that are obviously not Biblical are two different things to me??

Thank you all who can help me out here!

I have to be honest here. I personally am not pro-choice, but at the same time I have compassion for women who have been raped for example. Should they be denied the choice of abortion? This is a hard question for me. I don't believe in abortion, but I don't believe in forcing a raped woman to be pregnant with a product of rape. It is very hard, and something I need to pray on I guess.

I can give you a thought.

Do we kill the children of criminals because of the crime?

Yes, if I were a woman and was raped and got pregnant, i would probably want to rip it out with my bare hands. Then there are those who have been all the way through that and kept tht eBaby as the one good thing that came from something bad.

[Wayfarer122]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

sorry kross, but how can you agree with everything stated when you dont vote? (notice the statements of wayfarer i have bolded)

i understand what you're saying about the spirit conditions of the people who commit these sins. i totally agree that it should be a concern of ours. but let me throw this at you: people (saved or unsaved) who kill their children will have to answer to God for that sin (in one way or another). yes? so wouldnt we be doing them an injustice to not speak out and tell them that what they're doing is wrong and try to prevent them (by law) from doing it? let me give you a silly example. if a child is told not to climb a telephone pole, would you go ahead and let him climb it if he chose, knowing that he could fall and be hurt or killed, simply because it was a heart condition (rebellion) that made him do it in the first place? would you not try to stop him? i would think you would. yes, its a heart condition. but that doesnt mean we do nothing to prevent the sin from taking place. its not an either/or thing. trying to get roe v wade turned is a help to the people who do it, as well as it is the person being killed.

as far as not being able to change the law: that would go against everything the founding fathers were striving for, would it not? and throughout the Bible God has ALWAYS been a defender of the helpless. who is more helpless than the child in the womb? so is trying to get abortion stopped following the Spirit of God? i think so.

most things you say, i agree with, kross. but when you say you are more concerned with the mother who aborts her baby than the baby himself, i gotta "kross" you! that would be putting one above another, wouldn't it? and i believe james has something to say about that. saving a life would be doing good, would it not? so theres the "to him that knows to do good and does it not...." verse. i get the soul v life thing, but i still think you're throwing one away above another. your taking into your hands what only belongs in God's.

yes, the better answer is prevention. but until then, i think we would be sorely missing the mark if we allow sin to go on unchecked!

No one knows the abortion rate prior to it being legalized. A greter percentage of women died as a result of their aborting thier babies in those days. Many abortions were done in back alley "Butcher shops". How many illegl abortions and deaths would take place right now if it were made illegal?

Like it or not, it has been made into a right in this country. When you start taking away what people see as a right, they choose to continue in the action anyway.

When it becomes illegal to serve JESUS, will you stop or will you continue? Your attitude about that will be no different than the attitude of someone else who feels they have had a right taken away.

Just for the record, the Bible says to mourn when a child is born and rejoice when a person leaves this world and goes to JESUS. If that child skipped the evils of this world and went streight to GOD, that is not a bad thing in my eyes. Please do not give me grief about "then we should kill them all". You get the point. That is why the condition of the mother, and the condition of our nation, matters more to me.

As far as your last sentence, GOD is the only one who decides how far out of control sin gets. HIS promise is that if HIS people would do what they are supposed to, HE would fix the rest. HE has always used the ungodly to chastise HIS people. So, maybe the idea of thinking that our government can control that which GOD has decided not to is the real sin issue here. Truth is, GOD is the real power and HE has made promises to HIS people.

I can not seem to stress enough that our getting caught up in using the weapons of this world to fight a spiritual war is only going to make things worse. We have the power and the weapons to defeat sin in the world if we defeat it in the churches first.

And let me make this one point, call it prophetic insight or just a lot of study in the nature of GOD;

If GOD has not chosen to fix an issue (within the time frame that you think it should be) and you go to some other means to try to fix it, it just might be that you think that other source has more power than GOD. That realy ticks HIM off. That is why the effort to use politics and laws and the other weapons of this world do not work. The more we try to do these things in our own power, the more GOD is backing off and letting us give it a go.

Only an unhindered faith in GOD and tust that HE has it under control will win the day. "Let go and let GOD" as they say. Preach, teach, exhort, and shout the truth from the rooftops and you will get results for greater than you will ever get by any other means. Just because our churches teach us that praying alone is not enough, does not make it so. I promise you that if GOD's people would put these issues in GOD's hands and put an absolute trust in HIM, HE would live up to that trust.

WOW, I almost got on my soap box there. I try not to put that much meat in a post for fear of choking the babes.

Your justification for Roe V. Wade is flawed. First, it's much easier for people in a woman's life who do not have her best interest at heart to coerce her into having an abortion if abortions are legal. It happens all the time. I can tell you that there's very little choice in "choice." Second, arguing against enacting a law because there are some people who will be inclined to break the law isn't much of an arguement. It's the same logic that was used in an attempt to legalize recreational drugs and it just doesn't make sense.

Can you provide a reference for the statement I have bolded?

Thanks.

Lori

[slim777]

If I put this in the wrong place I apologize. But I do have a question for all the fellow believers' in Christ out there.

What I don't understand is how someone can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support Pro-choice and homosexuality?? I do understand that we are supposed to love others' as Christ would, but loving them and supporting and backing up choices that are obviously not Biblical are two different things to me??

Thank you all who can help me out here!

We can sincerely love someone, care for them and treat them with respect, even counsel them, but we are never to condone or support their choice to sin, or their choice to support someone who sins.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God

[Mom2Many]

If I put this in the wrong place I apologize. But I do have a question for all the fellow believers' in Christ out there.

What I don't understand is how someone can call themselves a Christian and say they follow the Bible, believe in it and yet still support Pro-choice and homosexuality?? I do understand that we are supposed to love others' as Christ would, but loving them and supporting and backing up choices that are obviously not Biblical are two different things to me??

Thank you all who can help me out here!

I have to be honest here. I personally am not pro-choice, but at the same time I have compassion for women who have been raped for example. Should they be denied the choice of abortion? This is a hard question for me. I don't believe in abortion, but I don't believe in forcing a raped woman to be pregnant with a product of rape. It is very hard, and something I need to pray on I guess.

I can give you a thought.

Do we kill the children of criminals because of the crime?

Yes, if I were a woman and was raped and got pregnant, i would probably want to rip it out with my bare hands. Then there are those who have been all the way through that and kept tht eBaby as the one good thing that came from something bad.

I think this was an excellent point! I can't say how I'd feel in a situation like the above. But what I can say, is I value life, each and every one that God creates, no matter how that child is created. I feel they all need to be defended and they all need to be given a chance. We have no right to do away with what God creates.

Also, to me this isn't a matter of personal choice or personal belief. This is murder, end of story. I can't chose to end someone else's life just because they are an inconvience to me, that is murder and I'd end up in jail. To me, abortion is no different. And although women would break the law, that is no justification for all the human lives lost to abortion.

[slim777]

That was my point about gossip.

It is sin, just like abortion and males having sex with males are sin.

No difference in God's eyes. Sin is Sin.

Looking at a woman in lust is no different than adultary with her.

We pick our battles.

Why do we pick abortion and same-sex relationships to fight but not the smaller stuff that the Church sortof winks at?

I think that it is becuase we pick the sin that we *know* we are not and can not be guilty of ourselves.

Since we might partake in gossip or lustful thoughts or false judgment or hating our brother w/o cause,

I think that we avoid these as causes and pick the bigger ones to rally against.

That way we feel comfortable in our criticism and can justify our actions ...

there is merit in what you say. however, gossip doesnt snuff out a life. nor does it spread diseases. a sin is a sin in God's eyes, but different sins have different consequences. the consequences of gossip may or may not be great. but the consequences of abortion and homosexuality are great--to individuals and to this nation. therein lies the difference. and i know people who dont gossip, but they dont go around proclaiming the badness of it. why? not because they are free from that contamination, but because its not a worthy cause to fight for. there are a lot of people who have had abortions who proclaim the sinfulness of it. there are people coming out of homosexuality, who know very well that there is a danger of them falling back into it, who proclaim the evils thereof.

we pick our battles, yes. but i dont think we all pick our battles based on what we're innocent of. there are some things "we" dont talk about, yes. and we're all guilty of it. but abortion and homosexuality are things that have huge consequences and have a huge impact on our nation. to say the only reason we fight this battle is because we're not guilty of the sin, is, i think, doing a great disservice to a lot of christians.

one thing we will have to admit, the sin of homosexual acts those that was found doing such things as man laying with men those people were put to death, in the early days of the old testiment laws of God , those having sex with beast were also put to death...

[kross]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

sorry kross, but how can you agree with everything stated when you dont vote? (notice the statements of wayfarer i have bolded)

i understand what you're saying about the spirit conditions of the people who commit these sins. i totally agree that it should be a concern of ours. but let me throw this at you: people (saved or unsaved) who kill their children will have to answer to God for that sin (in one way or another). yes? so wouldnt we be doing them an injustice to not speak out and tell them that what they're doing is wrong and try to prevent them (by law) from doing it? let me give you a silly example. if a child is told not to climb a telephone pole, would you go ahead and let him climb it if he chose, knowing that he could fall and be hurt or killed, simply because it was a heart condition (rebellion) that made him do it in the first place? would you not try to stop him? i would think you would. yes, its a heart condition. but that doesnt mean we do nothing to prevent the sin from taking place. its not an either/or thing. trying to get roe v wade turned is a help to the people who do it, as well as it is the person being killed.

as far as not being able to change the law: that would go against everything the founding fathers were striving for, would it not? and throughout the Bible God has ALWAYS been a defender of the helpless. who is more helpless than the child in the womb? so is trying to get abortion stopped following the Spirit of God? i think so.

most things you say, i agree with, kross. but when you say you are more concerned with the mother who aborts her baby than the baby himself, i gotta "kross" you! that would be putting one above another, wouldn't it? and i believe james has something to say about that. saving a life would be doing good, would it not? so theres the "to him that knows to do good and does it not...." verse. i get the soul v life thing, but i still think you're throwing one away above another. your taking into your hands what only belongs in God's.

yes, the better answer is prevention. but until then, i think we would be sorely missing the mark if we allow sin to go on unchecked!

No one knows the abortion rate prior to it being legalized. A greter percentage of women died as a result of their aborting thier babies in those days. Many abortions were done in back alley "Butcher shops". How many illegl abortions and deaths would take place right now if it were made illegal?

Like it or not, it has been made into a right in this country. When you start taking away what people see as a right, they choose to continue in the action anyway.

When it becomes illegal to serve JESUS, will you stop or will you continue? Your attitude about that will be no different than the attitude of someone else who feels they have had a right taken away.

Just for the record, the Bible says to mourn when a child is born and rejoice when a person leaves this world and goes to JESUS. If that child skipped the evils of this world and went streight to GOD, that is not a bad thing in my eyes. Please do not give me grief about "then we should kill them all". You get the point. That is why the condition of the mother, and the condition of our nation, matters more to me.

As far as your last sentence, GOD is the only one who decides how far out of control sin gets. HIS promise is that if HIS people would do what they are supposed to, HE would fix the rest. HE has always used the ungodly to chastise HIS people. So, maybe the idea of thinking that our government can control that which GOD has decided not to is the real sin issue here. Truth is, GOD is the real power and HE has made promises to HIS people.

I can not seem to stress enough that our getting caught up in using the weapons of this world to fight a spiritual war is only going to make things worse. We have the power and the weapons to defeat sin in the world if we defeat it in the churches first.

And let me make this one point, call it prophetic insight or just a lot of study in the nature of GOD;

If GOD has not chosen to fix an issue (within the time frame that you think it should be) and you go to some other means to try to fix it, it just might be that you think that other source has more power than GOD. That realy ticks HIM off. That is why the effort to use politics and laws and the other weapons of this world do not work. The more we try to do these things in our own power, the more GOD is backing off and letting us give it a go.

Only an unhindered faith in GOD and tust that HE has it under control will win the day. "Let go and let GOD" as they say. Preach, teach, exhort, and shout the truth from the rooftops and you will get results for greater than you will ever get by any other means. Just because our churches teach us that praying alone is not enough, does not make it so. I promise you that if GOD's people would put these issues in GOD's hands and put an absolute trust in HIM, HE would live up to that trust.

WOW, I almost got on my soap box there. I try not to put that much meat in a post for fear of choking the babes.

Your justification for Roe V. Wade is flawed. First, it's much easier for people in a woman's life who do not have her best interest at heart to coerce her into having an abortion if abortions are legal. It happens all the time. I can tell you that there's very little choice in "choice." Second, arguing against enacting a law because there are some people who will be inclined to break the law isn't much of an arguement. It's the same logic that was used in an attempt to legalize recreational drugs and it just doesn't make sense.

Can you provide a reference for the statement I have bolded?

Thanks.

Lori

First of all, I am not justifying Roe V Wade. It is a bad law and it was a mistake. What I am saying is that it reflects our society. It is acceptable to those who live in this country to murder their babies. So, changing it now will not happen and will not be the end all of the issue.

As far as legalizing drugs, there are SSSOOOOOOO many inocent people shot in the streets, killed by stray bullets, so many police officers who are killed, so many people every day who die because of the drug trade that it is tragic. We should have learned from prohibition that laws to control people's behavior do not work.

The verse is not one that I keep in my brain. I tried to find it but I can not think of a good key word to search with.

[kross]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

sorry kross, but how can you agree with everything stated when you dont vote? (notice the statements of wayfarer i have bolded)

i understand what you're saying about the spirit conditions of the people who commit these sins. i totally agree that it should be a concern of ours. but let me throw this at you: people (saved or unsaved) who kill their children will have to answer to God for that sin (in one way or another). yes? so wouldnt we be doing them an injustice to not speak out and tell them that what they're doing is wrong and try to prevent them (by law) from doing it? let me give you a silly example. if a child is told not to climb a telephone pole, would you go ahead and let him climb it if he chose, knowing that he could fall and be hurt or killed, simply because it was a heart condition (rebellion) that made him do it in the first place? would you not try to stop him? i would think you would. yes, its a heart condition. but that doesnt mean we do nothing to prevent the sin from taking place. its not an either/or thing. trying to get roe v wade turned is a help to the people who do it, as well as it is the person being killed.

as far as not being able to change the law: that would go against everything the founding fathers were striving for, would it not? and throughout the Bible God has ALWAYS been a defender of the helpless. who is more helpless than the child in the womb? so is trying to get abortion stopped following the Spirit of God? i think so.

most things you say, i agree with, kross. but when you say you are more concerned with the mother who aborts her baby than the baby himself, i gotta "kross" you! that would be putting one above another, wouldn't it? and i believe james has something to say about that. saving a life would be doing good, would it not? so theres the "to him that knows to do good and does it not...." verse. i get the soul v life thing, but i still think you're throwing one away above another. your taking into your hands what only belongs in God's.

yes, the better answer is prevention. but until then, i think we would be sorely missing the mark if we allow sin to go on unchecked!

Actually, by not casting a vote I believe i am doing what is in the best interest of my country. I will continue to pray for our leaders (the only thing the Bible tells us to do with regard to politics) and I will leave it in GOD's capable hands. No matter who is elected, they are going to do what HE wants anyway.

[Mom2Many]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

sorry kross, but how can you agree with everything stated when you dont vote? (notice the statements of wayfarer i have bolded)

i understand what you're saying about the spirit conditions of the people who commit these sins. i totally agree that it should be a concern of ours. but let me throw this at you: people (saved or unsaved) who kill their children will have to answer to God for that sin (in one way or another). yes? so wouldnt we be doing them an injustice to not speak out and tell them that what they're doing is wrong and try to prevent them (by law) from doing it? let me give you a silly example. if a child is told not to climb a telephone pole, would you go ahead and let him climb it if he chose, knowing that he could fall and be hurt or killed, simply because it was a heart condition (rebellion) that made him do it in the first place? would you not try to stop him? i would think you would. yes, its a heart condition. but that doesnt mean we do nothing to prevent the sin from taking place. its not an either/or thing. trying to get roe v wade turned is a help to the people who do it, as well as it is the person being killed.

as far as not being able to change the law: that would go against everything the founding fathers were striving for, would it not? and throughout the Bible God has ALWAYS been a defender of the helpless. who is more helpless than the child in the womb? so is trying to get abortion stopped following the Spirit of God? i think so.

most things you say, i agree with, kross. but when you say you are more concerned with the mother who aborts her baby than the baby himself, i gotta "kross" you! that would be putting one above another, wouldn't it? and i believe james has something to say about that. saving a life would be doing good, would it not? so theres the "to him that knows to do good and does it not...." verse. i get the soul v life thing, but i still think you're throwing one away above another. your taking into your hands what only belongs in God's.

yes, the better answer is prevention. but until then, i think we would be sorely missing the mark if we allow sin to go on unchecked!

Actually, by not casting a vote I believe i am doing what is in the best interest of my country. I will continue to pray for our leaders (the only thing the Bible tells us to do with regard to politics) and I will leave it in GOD's capable hands. No matter who is elected, they are going to do what HE wants anyway.

You are right, God is capable, more capable than you or I. But...God also does a lot of his work through us. He uses us to do his work. To turn our heads to something so important I don't think is doing a service to God, but a disservice.

[Wayfarer122]

The political action side of this question is something I didn't respond to initially because I wasn't sure if that was included in your question, but I'm guessing from the responses that it is.

As citizens we have a duty to protect the personal safety of the people in our country with our votes. Abortion kills people who live here, so we need to enact legislation that protects these people, even if they're small and they don't look like "us."

We also have a duty to discern what's best for our nation as a whole and reflect that in our votes. The right of someone to hold a job in the public and for-profit sector based on whether or not they practice sinful behavior is essential. (This means sinful behavior that doesn't endanger others, etc.) Homosexuals are denied this right in certain states. This issue is widely overlooked and it shouldn't be.

Homosexual marriage is another issue altogether. We need to look at this behavior and ask ourselves, "Is this something we want to promote? Is it good for our society?" In the past, we did that with marriage and traditional families. Laws were passed to offer tax-breaks to married couples to promote the stability and strength that our country benefits from as a result of traditional families. So we need to ask ourselves, "Is homosexual marriage good for our society?"

Additionally, we need to look at the other ramifications of a proposed homosexual marriage law. Will businesses be required to offer benefits to homosexual partners? What about contract marriages and temporary living-together arrangements for others? Businesses extend benefits to spouses and children, not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because stable, traditional marriages contribute to the stability and performance of employees. Are there mandates in line behind homosexual marriages that will dictate who employers must provide benefits to? I think there are. This is a real can of worms. As Christians, we have a unique world-view that should be central to our votes. We see God as someone who allows us our free-will and that is reflected in our view of governmental authority, but we also have a responsibility to look beyond our hands-off approach to personal choices and cast our vote in the best interest of our country.

I think I agree with everything stated. We need to look at the issue and see if it is going to be the destruction of our nation if these things are or are not changed. I think I tend to believe more in the power of GOD than the power of government to change the direction of our nation.

Without a change in the hearts and minds of the nation, we are just a white washed tomd full of dead mans bones. What good is that?

sorry kross, but how can you agree with everything stated when you dont vote? (notice the statements of wayfarer i have bolded)

i understand what you're saying about the spirit conditions of the people who commit these sins. i totally agree that it should be a concern of ours. but let me throw this at you: people (saved or unsaved) who kill their children will have to answer to God for that sin (in one way or another). yes? so wouldnt we be doing them an injustice to not speak out and tell them that what they're doing is wrong and try to prevent them (by law) from doing it? let me give you a silly example. if a child is told not to climb a telephone pole, would you go ahead and let him climb it if he chose, knowing that he could fall and be hurt or killed, simply because it was a heart condition (rebellion) that made him do it in the first place? would you not try to stop him? i would think you would. yes, its a heart condition. but that doesnt mean we do nothing to prevent the sin from taking place. its not an either/or thing. trying to get roe v wade turned is a help to the people who do it, as well as it is the person being killed.

as far as not being able to change the law: that would go against everything the founding fathers were striving for, would it not? and throughout the Bible God has ALWAYS been a defender of the helpless. who is more helpless than the child in the womb? so is trying to get abortion stopped following the Spirit of God? i think so.

most things you say, i agree with, kross. but when you say you are more concerned with the mother who aborts her baby than the baby himself, i gotta "kross" you! that would be putting one above another, wouldn't it? and i believe james has something to say about that. saving a life would be doing good, would it not? so theres the "to him that knows to do good and does it not...." verse. i get the soul v life thing, but i still think you're throwing one away above another. your taking into your hands what only belongs in God's.

yes, the better answer is prevention. but until then, i think we would be sorely missing the mark if we allow sin to go on unchecked!

No one knows the abortion rate prior to it being legalized. A greter percentage of women died as a result of their aborting thier babies in those days. Many abortions were done in back alley "Butcher shops". How many illegl abortions and deaths would take place right now if it were made illegal?

Like it or not, it has been made into a right in this country. When you start taking away what people see as a right, they choose to continue in the action anyway.

When it becomes illegal to serve JESUS, will you stop or will you continue? Your attitude about that will be no different than the attitude of someone else who feels they have had a right taken away.

Just for the record, the Bible says to mourn when a child is born and rejoice when a person leaves this world and goes to JESUS. If that child skipped the evils of this world and went streight to GOD, that is not a bad thing in my eyes. Please do not give me grief about "then we should kill them all". You get the point. That is why the condition of the mother, and the condition of our nation, matters more to me.

As far as your last sentence, GOD is the only one who decides how far out of control sin gets. HIS promise is that if HIS people would do what they are supposed to, HE would fix the rest. HE has always used the ungodly to chastise HIS people. So, maybe the idea of thinking that our government can control that which GOD has decided not to is the real sin issue here. Truth is, GOD is the real power and HE has made promises to HIS people.

I can not seem to stress enough that our getting caught up in using the weapons of this world to fight a spiritual war is only going to make things worse. We have the power and the weapons to defeat sin in the world if we defeat it in the churches first.

And let me make this one point, call it prophetic insight or just a lot of study in the nature of GOD;

If GOD has not chosen to fix an issue (within the time frame that you think it should be) and you go to some other means to try to fix it, it just might be that you think that other source has more power than GOD. That realy ticks HIM off. That is why the effort to use politics and laws and the other weapons of this world do not work. The more we try to do these things in our own power, the more GOD is backing off and letting us give it a go.

Only an unhindered faith in GOD and tust that HE has it under control will win the day. "Let go and let GOD" as they say. Preach, teach, exhort, and shout the truth from the rooftops and you will get results for greater than you will ever get by any other means. Just because our churches teach us that praying alone is not enough, does not make it so. I promise you that if GOD's people would put these issues in GOD's hands and put an absolute trust in HIM, HE would live up to that trust.

WOW, I almost got on my soap box there. I try not to put that much meat in a post for fear of choking the babes.

Your justification for Roe V. Wade is flawed. First, it's much easier for people in a woman's life who do not have her best interest at heart to coerce her into having an abortion if abortions are legal. It happens all the time. I can tell you that there's very little choice in "choice." Second, arguing against enacting a law because there are some people who will be inclined to break the law isn't much of an arguement. It's the same logic that was used in an attempt to legalize recreational drugs and it just doesn't make sense.

Can you provide a reference for the statement I have bolded?

Thanks.

Lori

First of all, I am not justifying Roe V Wade. It is a bad law and it was a mistake. What I am saying is that it reflects our society. It is acceptable to those who live in this country to murder their babies. So, changing it now will not happen and will not be the end all of the issue.

As far as legalizing drugs, there are SSSOOOOOOO many inocent people shot in the streets, killed by stray bullets, so many police officers who are killed, so many people every day who die because of the drug trade that it is tragic. We should have learned from prohibition that laws to control people's behavior do not work.

The verse is not one that I keep in my brain. I tried to find it but I can not think of a good key word to search with.

I was under the impression from the previous post that you were for Roe V Wade. My impression now is that you will stand by and do nothing for reasons other than agreeing with Roe V. Wade.

I have never heard of the verse or the concept in the bible. If you can locate the origin of your statement, you might be able to support it. As it stands now, it's in the Say-a-miah category.