Dave123

I know that some people refuse to seperate terrorists from regular Iraqi people because when they do, their arguement falls to peices. Iraqi people are fighting with us, against terrorists. The difference between me and you is that I don't believe that it is the governments responsibility for all of it, but mostly ours as individual people. While you feel it is mainly the governments resposibility, you say "tax the rich, and use their money, I will keep mine". How righteous of you. In effect, what you believe is that it's the governments responsibility to spend other peoples money the way you want it spent. Before you ask, or think it, i'm poor. this is why the communist extreme left is making way today, because people want the government to take all the responsibility and as a benefit, the people can always be the victim. Without a victim and with people taking most of the responsibilty for themselves these left wing communists are out of buisiness. I'm not talking about all Democrats, only the wacko left. Give to ceaser what is ceasers, give to God what is His

The Iraqi people are victims, not from the coalition, but from dictatorship of terrorists. Of course there are some people that want us out, but remember, there is more to the story than what the liberal media wants you to know. These people have never known freedom, so they are afraid of change. There are some who want change but will not speak up about it in public and especially not to a news camera. These are real life and death matters for these people. The attitudes of the so called masses of "anti coalition Iraqians" which is more of a minority is changing every day, with every victory, every move towards freedom, their opinions become less and less driven by fear, and more driven for freedom. They are helping and getting involved more and more. Their info and help at Fulugia was critical in it's success. The majority has always wanted us there. It's sad that while these people are fighting for their lives they have to listen to the spin of the American media elete that print their agenda for personal gain. The liberal press wants the Iraqi people to be victims of our government, the terrorists to be a loving peaceful people who accidently flew plains into the twin towers, and accidently used the money that was meant for food to serve their hatred agenda, and of course they accidently murdered all those Iraqi people and even accidently beheaded some, torchured some, and raped some. But the big bad soldiers of the coalition are the bad guys, right? We are defending our country and liberating a people at the same time. Terrorists are bad people. They wanted you and I dead long before anyone named Bush was in the white house. Just as much joy as you feel when someone repents and gives their life to Christ, they feel that same joy when you and your family are dead, and they will rejoice over your dead bodies. Just as your goal is to spread the gospel to any, and everyone, there goal is to murder infidels. This is what terrorist are, plain and simple. Yes the Iraqi people want us out, but let me show you how the slant works. They want us out after the war is over, which we will do. They don't want us hanging around afterwards and dictating to them, but they want us there now and are happy to have us there. The liberal media only gives half of the facts, and this is what they do. They say that Iraqi people want us out, and that is truthful, but by leaving out the rest of the facts they paint a false picture. Some of the Iraqies, who have been brainwashed since birth to hate America and not trust us, are conscerned that their country will not be theirs when they have been liberated. This is not our intention, as most Iraqians know, but the liberal media does what it does best, play on peoples fears with lies, and for what? So they can paint another party as being bad guys. It's not working anymore.

Yes, that is the truth. I would trust my links from the people of Iraq over the American journalist, and your second link isn't working. Take the time to look the links over that I gave, there is actually some hate mail too. This is what people do when they want the truth to come out, and not their slant. The first two links I gave are from a site started by the Iraqi people, in their language and translated to ours by a Iraqian. No American involvement at all in making these.

Here are some site for you to consider. These are honest sites with some hate mail too, but for the most part they are very possitive. Please share these with other people. Iraqi Pro-Democracy Party... http://english.iraqdemparty.org/ We believe that we represent an important segment of the Iraqi people that was never organized before under any category as a result of the oppression of the past regime. Now this segment has come to see the necessity to contribute to the building of a new Iraq in a way that is entirely different from the old ways. علي فاضل (Ali Fadhil) A clip from this site. -------------- Iraqi bloggers grab global interest By Sarah Brown BBC News Online Ordinary Iraqis use blogs to speak to the world directly While reconstruction in Iraq remains fraught with violence and political infighting, the country is experiencing a surge in popularity of online diaries, or weblogs. Written by ordinary Iraqis keen to tell the world about life in the troubled country, the sites are also attracting the attention of a global audience keen to learn about the lives of local civilians. One such blog is Iraq The Model, an online diary focusing mainly on politics and reform which is written and run by three Baghdad-based brothers - Mohammed, Omar and Ali. Ali, a doctor, told BBC News Online that he and his brothers developed the blog because he wanted to send out a more positive message about events in his home country. "More than 90% of major media outlets have a rather negative agenda and what's the benefit of us doing the same?" he asks. "We do feel optimistic about the future of Iraq, but we see many facts about Iraq that are not covered, which is a shame." "They [the media] ignore pictures of good relations between the Iraqis and the coalition and the good interaction between both sides, they only focus on bad events - like what is happening in Abu Ghraib."..." -------------------- The last entry from the Blog called "Iraq the Model" http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/ "I found this letter (link in Arabic) of congratulations from Iraqis to president Bush and the American people on an Iraqi website and I wanted to share it with you. It

Here is what it means to be baptised with the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. You cannot be born again (saved) and not be baptised with the Holy Spirit. Being born again means just what the scripture above says. This is done by way of the baptism. The false teaching that it is a second work of grace is built from the unique transtional period in scripture at and around Pentecost. It is incorrect to call this the norm for today for about a million reasons, all scriptural. It is incorrect and contradicts the clear meaning of the truth of His Word. Notice that in 1 Cor. 12:13, just after the birth of the Church, the transitional period, that Paul can safely say that all are baptised with the Holy Spirit. If this were a second work of grace this would not be true and would make his point useless. Everyone gets baptised, Jesus is always the baptiser, believers are baptised with the Holy Spirit, unbelievers are baptised with fire (judgement), as Matt 3:10-12 is very clear about. Also see Malachi 4:1 and John 15:6. When you are are born again you are baptised into Chist, His death and resurection, By Jesus, with the Holy Spirit. Hence the term born again. Col. 2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 2 Peter 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Hebrews 6:2 Baptisms A better translation would be "washings" as in 9:10. The Greek term is never used of Christian baptism. The plural also is inconsistent with the singular concept of Christian baptism. In the OT Levitical system, there were many ceremonial cleansings, which were outward signs of heart cleansings (cf Ex. 30:18-21; Lev. 16:4,24,26,28; Mark 7:4,8 ). The New Covenant called for an inner washing (Titus 3:5 ) that regenerated the soul. (JMSB) The water baptism is symbolic of the "one" true baptism. Much the same way the the blood sacrifices of the OT never took sin away, but were symbolic, a reminder that pointed towards Jesus. Test everything to God's word, never take anyones word for it, even mine. God bless Dave

Hey John I believe him too. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought he was lying, far be it from that. The point is that if unverifiable stories were the way to go to prove anything, Paul could have done it, but he didn't, even though his story was true. It would have done more harm than good. Be good Bereans. Here is the bottom line for this thread. There is way too much on the table at one time to have a meaningful discussion. Anything meaningful gets lost in the shuffle. We could fill this same amount of space speaking only about tongues. I have already shown that the perfect has nothing to do with when all of the the gifts themselves (for everyone), will cease. There are things to be learned from that passage (1 Cor. 13) , but when the gifts as a whole will cease for the body is not one of them. To assume that they all last forever is contrary to scripture. Each miraculous gift has to be discussed seperately, the unmiraculous can be bunched together unless someone can show good reason not to. If anyone would like to start a thread on the gift of tongues, or the gift of miracles, or the gift of healing, then I would be more than happy to contribute, and I have a lot to contribute, especially with the gift of tongues. I kknow all sides of the issue well, I guess you could say that this is my "thing", or my pet study that I spend my extra time on. Though there are some things in scripture that tie the miraculous gifts together, it would be most profitable to discuss them seperately. If anyone holds experience over scripture either in word or in deed, then the discussion is pointless with me, because our sources of truth are different, and anything we discuss will always come back to that, eventually. I define experience by scripture. This does not change the experience, or deny the way some may feel when that experience happened, it's just being Biblical, using that sword that is part of our armor. This will be my last post in this thread, so, God bless, and carry on.

Just so i'm not misundertood, I don't believe that the perfect has anything to do with tongues, and it only tells us when the gifts of prophecy and knowledge will end for the individual, not the end of the gifts themselves. Someone earlier gave a Greek breakdown of "perfect" and I believe that definition still fits perfectly (no pun intended) with what I have stated about how I believe the perfect should be defined. If the perfect is the completed cannon, then Prophecy (non-revelatory) and knowledge would be gone, making it impossible for the two prophets to fulfill that passage of God's word in Revelation. Also it would be impossible for the prophecy of joel to be completely fulfilled. We will only see "face to face" and "know as we are fully known" when we are in heaven. This will "complete" the matureing process and bring us to the end that God has so desired. When you take the time, (if you haven'yt already) to understand my position, you will see that it all fits together nicely, chapter 13, that is. I wish that I had the time to lay it out properly. Being one who believes that the miraculous gifts have ceased, I would have liked nothing better than to have a "silver bullet" to end the discusion. But, even though it's much more lengthier and difficult because of the vastness of this topic, I have to do it the hard way because I believe that it is the truthful, and correct way. God bless

I'm not shure you answered the question, Scud. According to your definition of the perfect, Paul would be saying when your maturity comes, the gifts will cease. I disagree that the Corinthians excelled in the gifts, at least the real ones. That would go against every basic understanding of how and when the Holy Spirit will manifest Himself through us. If you go back and underline all the sin that was present in this church, it would sound more like something from a red light district than a church of God. Consider the sin that was taking place at the Corinthian church and ask yourself if the Holy Spirit would move in this place and through these people. They were worldly, divisive, opinionated, cliquish, carnal, fleshly, envious, strife-ridden, argumentative, puffed up, self- glorying, smug, immoral, compromising with sin, defrauding each other, fornicating, depriving in marriage, offending weaker Christians, lusting after evil things, idolatrous, fellowshiping with demons, insubordinate, gluttonous, drunken, selfish toward the poor, and desecrating the Lord's Table. Paul basically told them that since he had left them the last time they should have grown, but they were still wearing their spiritual diapers. This church had it all wrong. Even the basics such as love, they didn't understand. This was a very imature church, but Paul cared deeply for them. As Macarthur points out..."The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13)." These are the definitions that I agree with. Remember, God's Word says that in all things He works for the good.... and He works all things according to the counsil of His will. So when it's not a miracle, by biblical definition, it is still from God and we call that providence. When God works through normal means not contrary to natural process. This is what a cessationist believes, these are things some non-cessationists do not want you to know. God is in control of all things, not just the miraculous and spectacular. Miracle: In a Biblical sense "a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes." Providence is God's faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen. Testamony is one thing, it still has to line up with the word of God. Paul, speaking of himself in the third person, was forced to say he had gone to the third heaven. He didn't want to tell them this and kept it to himself for many years, but they forced him to. The reason he didn't want to even mention it was because there was no way to confirm it, it was unverifiable, and by him testifying of it to prove his spirituality or position, all it would do is invite every false teacher to make the same claims. You're right, I should have considered that, sorry. LOL, I never said that all miracles happened within these three time frames, I only said that they were only common within these three time frames. If you check them off on your wall, you will see this. I can't write it all out, I'm trying to find something on the net that does that for me to save time. One that I agree is accurate and has the same exact questions in mind to answer. I've made a post, and reposted it two times. You have never answered it. I agree with the maturity in a different light. I can't keep up with you guys. I'll try. Dave

1. There was one era of miracles that covered the lifespan of Moses and Joshua. 2. There was a second that spanned the ministries of Elijah and Elisha. 3. The third, the greatest era of miracles that occurred during the time of Christ and the Apostles. With the exception of a few, such as Samson and a few others, there are three time frames where miracles were common in scripture and they are listed above, each being about one hundred years. Scud, we have shown. The burdon is on the non-cessationist to not ignore our proof and answer it honestly. What is a miracle, scud? God bless Dave

Ok, since the subject was miracles through human agency, maybe I should have not assumed you would be fair with me and debate honestly. BTW, still waiting for your definition of the gift of miracles and healing. It still works with all miracles, but let's stick to the topic at hand. Answer the same question with miracles through human agency (you can add miracles from God alone if you like). Draw a line across your wall to represent the time God was revealing His written word (about 4000 years). Every time you read about a miracle "through human agancy" mark it on the wall within the proper time frame. If you do this, then you will see that we have three breif periods, about one hundred years each, where miracles "through human agency" are common. Balls back in your court, scud. My proof is scripture, so the burdon of proof is on you. This is word games, scud. We are to test everything. Nobody is denying what scripture says, so don't go that route. I will test you every time. Cessation is what the Bible teaches, your new teaching is the one that has to do the proving, with scripture, and you haven't done it yet. Your meaning is incorrect and undefendable. If we apply your definition to the perfect, then what Paul would be saying is that spiritual gifts are for immature Christians. Is that what you mean? If not, please explain. I'm glad you finally admitted it. I'll try to get back today to finish In Christ

Tongues in the OT. GENESIS 11 In this important chapter describing the judgment upon Babel, tongues are mentioned for the very first time. Prior to Genesis 11 tongues (plural) did not exist! There was only one tongue throughout the inhabited earth: "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech" (Genesis 11:1). Foreign tongues made their first historical appearance in Genesis 11. God has a message for the people. Following the great Genesis flood, God gave this simple command to Noah and his sons: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth" (Genesis 9:1; cf. Genesis 9:7) How would the descendants of Noah respond to this divine command? The people refuse to listen to God. Instead of filling the earth as God had said, the people refused to obey. In their opposition to God

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Rom. 6:4-6; 1Cor.12:13; Gal. 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13; cf. Gal.3:26-27; Eph. 4:4-6) Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9. While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. Tongues are for a sign, which requires two people, the gifted and the unbelieving Jew. All the secondary benefits of tongues were so God would stay true to His Word not be the "author of confusion", hence the gift of interpretation. While the sign was being given to the Jews there would be believers standing around not knowing what was being said. God gave the gift of interpretation so there would be no confusion, everyone was edified. The primary purpose was the sign, since that judgment fell, tongues were no longer needed and ceased as the Bible said it would. All anyone should need to know is that tongues are for unbelievers, not believers. Nowhere in scripture are we taught to diconnect our minds in prayer or anything else. Love your Lord God with all your Mind. Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers, the secondary uses for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we can all accomplish without tongues. When the sign aspect of tongues became absent, the secondary uses became expendable. I think we can all agree that there is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. The churches deny it by their actions, and every individual effort to cross the language barriar in a miraculous way has failed. The secondary uses were put up with because of the sign. The personal prayer language is unbiblical and very selfish. Seek to edify the Church, not yourself. Wasn't this Pauls whole point to begin with? Dave

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. We have two Greek verbs being used here. "katargeo" This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge. "pauo" This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues. "katargeo" means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the "Perfect". "pauo" means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in. So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped. The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the "perfect comes". The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop. Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. Also note the highlighted parts. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (no tongues) 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here. "done away") 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect? (At one time I believed this to be true) But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that: A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians. Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be. B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation) C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17). D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3) E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12). F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known". G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again) All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming. The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers. The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).

Scud, the fruit is also how you handle the Word of God.

Hey, Scud Nice try, but you answered someone elses post, not mine. I didn't realise this until later in the day. So i'll waite for your reply. 1 Cor. 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? The implied answer is no. Apostles were gifts to the Church too, Do you believe we still have aposles? Through human agency the sign gifts are gone. Can you specify the exact date Jesus died on the cross? If not, does this mean that you cannot eccept it as truth? Falty reasoning. All do not have the same gifts. Your arguement is shattered at this point and you lose all credibility. The Bible is it's own conformation. The Greeks seek wisdom and the Jews seek a sign, but we preach Christ crucified. Yes, they have. I don't know what your thinking is here, but you are reading way too much into that verse. If you can define that verse in that way, than nothing will stop you from making any verse say anything. Wrong again, but still, the perfect has nothing to do with tongues, as I have shown already. False, based on incorrecly assuming that tongues will end when the perfect comes, and your incorrect definition of perfect. Miracles were common in scripture in three time periods, all being about one hundred years each. So miracles, even in scripture, are common for three hundred years total out of four thousand. Each time God was revealing His written word. Now we have the faith once for all delivered. No more need for confirming miracles because His word is it's own confermation. The perfect is the heavenly state of believers. Just to ignore it doesn't make it go away, I will keep reposting it if necessary. Please explain why we still have prophecy and knowledge in the tribulation and Kingdom, after the time you say they should have ceased.

Scud I'll have to read it tonight and reply tomorrow. I''m printing it out right now God bless Dave

I enjoy Alistair Begg also. I live about 1 hour from his church and go to the gift shop often to by his tapes/cd's. Probably the most well rounded teacher today. Good for both new Christians and seasoned veterans. When I was first born again, he was a consistant in my spiritual growth, and I would recommend him to anyone. God bless

For the sake of space, I'm going to deal with the stuff that is more directly connected to the questions. This is not a miracle, Scud. Before you say it, to say it is not a miracle is not to say God didn't do it. I'm glad he answered your prayer. This is no answer, Scud. What do you, Scud, believe the gift of healing is, and is for? But I do believe that God will answer prayers according to His will, but this is not the gift of healing. No, you couldn't have been more unclear. Gift of miracles, what is it and what is it's purpose? Now we are at least heading in the right direction. So you believe tongues are for edifying yourself, and for prayer when you don't know how to pray according to Romans 8. One down. So you believe prophecy is to make predictions. Two down. I agree on all three counts here. Actually, 1 and 2 are a result of it being "in the Word" looking from a positive perspective. I'm glad you listed number two, because this dicussion would have been meaningless if our source of truth was different. I'll assume from number two also that you believe that His word is infalible, at least in the original languages, correct me if i'm assuming too much. Three down. We can get into that later. I may agree with you, depending on where you go with it. I couldn't agree more. I personally believe that the gift of discernment is both a great blessing to a body, but also a heavy burdon for the individual with this gift. The gift of discerment would require lot's of wisdom, and much sorrow comes with much wisdom. BTW, when you pray for wisdom, expect some trials. I couldn't agree more. We won't need to use logic and reasoning in a bad way. We will simply be good Bereans. We won't ignore any verses, both sides, we will go over all of them in time, if you like. And, of course, Lord willing. I'm still unclear on your position on healing and miracles. Your testimonies are nice, but still didn't give me a clear picture of what you believe they are and are for. God bless

LOL, I can relate to that.

Is this so hard, or do you have something to hide, Scud? Your faith and hope revolve around these things, yet you don't know what they are? Please take the time to be plain and clear with these simple truths. Tell what they were and what they were for, that should not be all that difficult. P.S. Have you thrown your Bible away yet?

Hi Scud I won't go over all that stuff again. I refuse to play the straw man game any longer. You have avoided all my questions, so i'll make it easier. Can you put it writing, plainly, the purpose for the gifts of healing, miracles, tongues and prophecy, and how do you tell the difference between the true and the false? In Christ Dave

I never said I deny them. I just don't form doctrines from my feelings then ask others to trust in my feelings. I think I was clear on that, and I think you knew that. Which is my whole point. This is why we go to His Word. Thankyou. I do too, but you shouldn't read my posts like you read the Word of God. You assume way too much, Scud. You see, this is the bulk of your proof, "they said they saw" "they told me it happened" Did you ever stop to consider that of the healing that is actually a miracle was answered prayer, and not the gift of healing? The Bible sets clear standards of the true gift, but you ignore that. You continue to mix up people getting prayers answered with the gift of healing i.e. the ability to heal instantly, with a touch or a word, completely, organic diseases (not just back ackes), everyone. How many of your faith healers pass the test? "test everything" God said it, it's one of those simple things in scripture that you talk about. "Test the spirits" Yes believe the Word as it is written I agree, I wonder what milk and solid food means then, hmmmm? You know I never said or claimed to believe that, you are showing the weakness in your arguement when you have to resort to misrepresenting me in every one of your posts, it's getting tiring. Do you hear that? It's the sound of yet another straw man being built. Is this all you have? "Reason and logic" = trusting God's Word. What a shame that you cannot be honest with me or yourself. I'm only showing you that what you are saying is great, has another side to it, one that they keep hidden. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. I always go to scripture, always. Truth hurts, You need to ask yourself why and grow up.

Hey Neb, you may have missed this one. This is from page nine and was my first post on this thread.

Thank YOU, Neb.