Jon The Jew

Let me make a correction, it was Hong Kong the next day, the British surrendered. Then Gaum on Dec. 10th and 11th, and finally Wake on Dec. 28th. Pearl Harbor or not, we were going to be attacked.

Ok Steff, supposed we vote on it (Which we already have). 400-2 I believe was the final vote on the bill. Even if somehow it managed to pass, the President has the power to veto it. The thing is, Democrats would love nothing more than to try and make this another Vietnam.

It was proposed by a Democrat, and SR 89 was proposed by a Democrat. It's the Democrats who are pushing the issue. So in order for something to be a "Secret plan" it needs to be planned by the Republicans in the first place. We're 0-2 on starting draft bills.

Yes, it's a "Secret plan" right? Any evidence of this?

What scares me is people don't draw the connection. Democrats pushed for a draft. It got shot down. Not many people know about that attempt because the media never reported it, so now the Dems say "Bush has a secret plan!". (Not so secret then, is it?) John Kerry says "I will never institute a draft as long as I'm President". John Kerry then says "I will increase our armed forces by 45,000" How exactly do you PLAN an INCREASE in an all VOLUNTEER military?

We're also forgetting that Wake island was attacked the very next day. So if Pearl Harbor had been defended, Wake Island would still have been attacked. Either way, the Japanese offensive was inevitable.

Well, unless anyone besides Steff would like to comment, feel free. I don't waste my time on conspiracy theorists. As far as saying a veteran died for a mistake, I never have said that in my life. I wish people would read what I'm saying. Both my grandfathers served in WWII. My father served in Vietnam. I'm a JEW, whose family escaped the Czars of Russia because of religious and racial persecution. So a Jew against WWII is bit stupid. I am normally the top defender/supporter of veterans, no matter what they're fighting for. This is a bit discouraging, because teenagers (13-17) on another message board read the same things I've said here and actually understood it was a comparison.

And here I thought bold print was my ally. Folks...read Off topic, but since I'm a history nerd...I need to make a correction. There is speculation we did, but no one ever came out and said "They have concentration camps". Not even the German civilians knew about them very well. We knew of ghettos, but we couldn't condemn them for that. Our troops were shocked to find such camps existed. As for the Russians, if you study history, you'll find after Kursk, July 1943, which is a whole year and one month before we invaded...The Russians had been pushing them back since then. Germany did not gain any ground since Kursk, and were in full defense. That being said, I don't disagree with WWII at all. In fact I have more respect for the men who fought in that war than the average person. I spend a great deal of time learning and studying about it. I don't belittle anything anyone did in WWII. This post was simply to use logic that modern day anti-Iraq war people use. Only I added it to a war that everyone agrees was possibly the most justified war we've ever been in.

Here are some facts about WWII which, by today's standards, would make it the wrong war at the wrong time. 1. Germany didn't attack us, Japan did. Yet when Operation Overlord was thought up, America went with a "Europe first" campaign. While we were training in England for nearly a year, spending our focus, our entire Army and air force, training for the invasion...We had the Marines and part of the Navy fighting a much larger force. Not only was this force larger, but they fought harder, and were more dangerous to America. We had hardly any Army helping out, and the flying was done mostly by Navy pilots. We had help primarily from 2 countries, Great Britain and Austrailia. Japan attacked us on December 7, 1941, which started nearly 4 years of the most intense fighting the world has ever seen. On December 8, 1941, the Japanese then began an assault on Wake Island, and after days of fighting, they took the island. Meanwhile, Germany had declared war on us, yet never threatened us or our homeland. Which brings us to point number two. 2. There was no indication that Germany would ever attack us. With the Soviets pushing them back, the failed attampt at any sort of pre-invasion of England, much less an actual seaborne/airborne invasion, the Germans last thought would be how to invade America. Oddly enough, even with the knowledge that Germany never attacked us, and the fact that Japan was on our back porch, we still held a "Europe first" campaign. 3. We had no knowledge of the concentration camps prior to the invasion. When our troops hit Normandy for the first time on June 6, 1944, no one had any clue that there were such places called "Auschwitz" "Dachau" "Bergen-Belsan" etc. Not until we reached the end of the war did American, British, and Russian troops begin reporting "death camps". 4. The death toll was overwhelming for Americans. For a country who never attacked us, nor planned on it anytime soon, we lost 250,000 men fighting that nation. In the first day in Normandy alone, there were 15,000 unaccounted for. 6,000 of them were American, 1,500 of them KIA. This was just the first day of a war that was unprovoked. 5. We killed more German innocents than German military. nearly 4,000,000 German innocents lie dead at the end of WWII. 6. After all this fighting, we let Germany, and eastern Europe, fall into the hands of an even more oppresive regime. This mostly speaks for itself. 7. After the war, the German citizens were left with a large debt, destroyed country, new leaders which were worse, and virtually no hope of any better. So what's the catch? Am I suddenly an extremist liberal? No, I'm not. The same criteria liberals present to say Iraq is unprovoked and unjustified, a mistake...is the same criteria I've applied to WWII. However, ask any decent person if WWII was a mistake, and they'll give you a weird look. Thoughts? P.S. I do not believe anything I've written about WWII being wrong, I only did it for comparison and to make a point.

Major contradictions. First of all, we had no knowledge of the genocide in Germany. No information about death camps. It wasn't a reason for invading. We entered war with Germany because they threatened freedom...we kept the peace. Now, our intelligence was fault, but also U.K., French, German, and Russian intelligence. So "knowing" full and well Saddam had WMD's he would sell off to a terrorist group...wasn't good enough for you? I'll make it quick, the only reason WWII is justified in your eyes is the media never have it a bad reputation. I'm starting a new thread...and you can see what I mean there.

They pushed them back on the Moscow highway, just a few miles outside a Nazi victory, possibly the biggest victory. Then they pushed them out of Stalingrad. Then they massacred them at Kursk. Since Kursk, Germany had slowly been losing ground. But that's not the point. Germany never posed any immediate threat to us. Were we wrong in invading them?

I've read a book other than Anne Frank from an inmate at Begen-Belsan. It seems to be described as a "transfer" point TO the death camps. From the description the inmate gave, it wasn't AS bad as the others until the allied invasion of France, but still very very harsh and full of disease. Because it really wasn't strictly a death camp, though they did murder. Mostly they just transported the Jews there to "the East" as they were told, where they exterminated them anyway. In other words, it was typical Nazi policy, give them hope, then take any chance of that hope and destroy it. As far as dealing with rich Jews...wasn't one of the reasons anti-semitism ran rampant was the fact that Hitler convinced that Jews were all rich money-grubbers? Plus, with Jewish businesses being boycotted and destroyed, with Jews in high paying business slots fired....what rich Jews would be left by the time the exterminations started?

Change the name to Europe, and apply it to 1939-1943. What if we had that mentality with Europe? Germany never attacked us, never threatened us, and never dreamed of invading us, at least not for another 10 years, and by then the Soviets would have taken them out. Really? Because that's a paraphrase of James 4:17. And let them invade Iraq and Afghanistan and reverse EVERYTHING we've done? Let them get into range to launch an assault on Israel with nukes? I think not. Also, we're not "meddling" with their government, unless "meddling" means trying to stop them from harming the world.