SkilletRocksMyFace

Forgive me for not having read the entirity of this thread. There is a great thread on this topic already that I really recomend looking at entitled "the immortality of the soul" where much of this discussion is taken place in detail. Everyone sleeps and awaits the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, for he himself declars in Rev22 that "I am comming quickly and MY REWARD IS WITH ME"

Hi everyone, in relation to the thread entitled "If I'm not baptized and die" I wanted to dicuss what baptism is. It seems that most people believe baptism in nessasry for salvation but there is a few opinons on what baptism actually is (ie. either in the spirit? or immersion in water, or both??) I want to suggest that we leave our bad vibes at the door and enter this thread with an open mind and a Christ like attitude. We should also use the scritpures to support our opinion. I'd like to start by adding what I believe about baptism 1. It is nessary for salvation (Mark 16:16, Rom6, John 3:3) 2. It is immersion in water, Romans 6 says that we are to share in the burial of Christ and his ressurection. It would be pretty hard to be "burried" with Christ if we did not immerse ourselves in a physical substance (water) The bible is also clear about water baptism in Acts 8 with Philip and the Eunich. Also we are to follow Christ and CHrist was baptized in water after which the holy spirit decended apon him. To all those who belive it to be just in the spirit, might I ask what that means, what scritpures support it and how it pertains to sharing in a burial like Christ's. I'm open to changing my opinon so long as the scritpures support it but lets keep the debate clean and fair. Thanks!

Alright Super Jew you win man, okay. You need to calm down and relax. I entered this discussion for just that reason, a discussion, not a judgemental debate about who is right or wrong. My agenda here is to add my two cents and support it with scritpure but I'm not on this board to press issues if you're just going to get uptight about it. I am formally backing down and will not post on this thread again. I am going to suggest to everyone that we keep our focus on Gods word and uplifiting eachother instead of throwing out comments like "you need to rea you bible" and the like. Our attitude should be Christ like. I believe I have added my 2 cents and shown it scirpturally, however some of you seem to disagree and thats all well and good, I'm not going to try and push my opinon on top of anyone elses. Super Jew, take a deep breathe okay, I politly disagree with you but I'm not going to retaliate your judging me with harsh remarks of my own. My answer the question of this thread was simple and I believe it scritpural. You can say what you like, but clearly Christ will be the final judge, so it is quite biblical to say that we won't be judging anyone's salvation because that is a fact, unless you want to claim to be Christ. Everyone else, thanks for letting me discuss this peaceably with you.

Super Jew, I'll let Christ be the judge if I have studied deeply or not thank your opinion on that matter makes no difference to me. Can God go against HIs own word? Why can't He, He is God? Will God go against his own word? I doubt it. You seem to pulling the extremes of what I am saying, please don't twsit my words. I am advising that since non of us are Christ or God that none of us have the rigth to judge another's salvation and that is all I said with regards to that. Did I say that God will break his Word? No I did not. Please quote me where I said that. Now water baptism, Look at Philip and Eunich, what happened there? Philip preached onto the Eunich Jesus and he asks what he must do to be saved (acts 8) Philip then proceeds to immidatly baptize the Eunich in water after he has confessed with his mouth that Jesus was Lord. Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; Gal. 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ. I agree that when we are baptized we are IN Christ and before then we are not in Christ. We are told by Jesus to follow him, we are told by Paul to follow thier example. Both were baptized in water, Pual was not just baptized "inwarddly with the spirit" but in water. You CANNOT share in a burial like Christ (Rom 6) by an inward decision, you have to be under the water and raise from it to symbolize the ressurection of CHrist. Baptims you said was "immersion" If not into phycial water than what are you immersing yourself into? THe fundimetnal pricniple that I want to stress however is that none of us, are God So any wak scanario you want to throw out there solely rests on God to judge a person saved or not. Baptims is for obidence to christ commandments and it is when you are in christ. If you have made the concisous decision to put off the old man and put on Christ like Gal 3 says so by baptims and then suddnely die, God could very well judge you worthy of the kingdom, but for the last time, none of us are God so I urge you to let him do the jugeing please. This was my answer to the orginal question in the first place. Non of us have the right to jugde salvation, we know the scripture command it, but we do not have authority to judge salvation especialy in those wierd scanarios. God will do as God will do and we have no say in that.

Super Jew, take it esay man, I actually have studied Baptism in detail thank you. It is not a mutualy exclusive thing, are you Christ that you can judge? Nor am I so lets let the judgement rest with him please and thank you. The original question was "IF am am not baptized and I die, would I be saved" The answer is, it is not for us to judge. Then the argument (that I am attempting to make here) is that Christian's should be baptized in water (which is what baptism is, literaly immersed in water) if they have the means to do it. Please quote me when I said that if you wern't baptized in water you would be condemed. Please state that it is in the spirit with resptect to Romans 6, also the holy spirit decended on Christ in his baptism AFTER he rose from the water, it is very much a water orinted baptism. Baptism is no more a work than confessing with your mouth (that is using your lips to preach or speak the name of Jesus) Besides James tells us in chapter 2 that "Faith without works is dead" IF somoene dies walking across the street, then Christ has the sole right to judge thier salvation based on thier faith, works or whatever other criteria Christ seems fit. I have to politly disagree that if you arnt baptized and you die that you are condemed as put forth by super jew, I'm sorry but none of us have the right to judge another's salvation for God can and do what He will, it may be God will choose to save that person, Lets not limit the power of God.

Great posting hubertdorm I agree here. Superjew, did you read the thread? We alraedy been through the dying before baptism scanrio, Answer, Christ will judge him on the last day, we do not know for certian if he is saved because frankly we don't have the right to judge. It is not up to us to say who will be saved, what we ARE suggesting is that all those who procliam they follow Christ have the obligation to be baptized as Christ himself commanded for salvation. If they die before that then its up to Christ to judge. We are not saying that if you arn't baptized you are condemmed, we are saying that we should follow the comandments of Christ, do you disagree?

yeah everyone quoets Eph 2 as proof text that we should be able to ignore being baptized, which Christ himself commanded. Lets get the WHOLE context of scritpure before we just read Eph 2, which grace is the gift of God. Ephes. 2:5-9 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

There is nothing false about the thief seeing the kingdom of Heaven, Christ declared he would. What is misleading is the use of that passage to try and support an idea that people don't need to be baptized, which as I think we agree is false.

Thanks, I very much hope that scritpure is making the argument though. Baptism isn't taugh "falsely" however the thief on the cross argument doesn't hold wieght. Baptism for salvation sake is now rightlfuly taugh because it is after christ was ressurected.

Nope, he sure didn't say that to the thief on the cross, but consider these two things: 1. We don't know if he was baptized before that, in John's baptism, we only assume he was not baptized. 2. Even if he was or was not baptized it wouldn't matter. The baptism for salvation only occured after 1. Christ died and 2. Was ressurected from the dead to the right hand of his father. Romans 6 states clearly that the purpose of baptism is to share in the likeness of the ressurection of Christ, thus it would be imposible to have the baptism for salvation in the likeness of Christ's ressureciton if Christ was not yet ressurected (such as the thief on the cross, Christr was obviously still alive and talking to the thief, thus his ressurection did not take place yet) Batpism for salvation takes place only after Christ was ressurected, anything else was for the repentece sake, again, read acts 19. The baptism we practice now and the baptism in question is th one INTO the saving name of Christ Jesus, so this is the baptism I am suggesting is for salvation. However, like we already disucssed. If for some reason you are not baptized and die there is a possiblity of salvation because that decision is based soley on Jesus Christ judging us at the last days. It is not for us motral men and women to know. The point I continue to stress is that we as believers have the obligation to be baptized into the saving name of Jesus Christ because we were commanded to do so by him. Yet again, I will admit, I am not Jesus so I don't know who will be saved, but I do know as Christians we should follow what Christ commanded...

Please see my earlier posts about the thief on the cross. Salvation is a delicate thing. Scritpure is clear that we are "saved by faith" which I don't doubt at all because we cannot earn our salvation by works, however as James tells us, faith without works is dead, an interesting parellel... I'm with Irene and most others here though, while I strongly believe that a believer has the obligation to be baptized for salvation, if for some reason that person can't through no fault of thier own, then who's to say they are not "saved" by thier faith, Only Christ will judge that.

Well Arthur, I'd suggest reading my earlier posts. Without the shedding of blood there is no remision for sins and I agreed to that. Please quote me where I said that one was more IMPORTANT than the other. The last line in my last post declared that without blood we are not saved and without ressurection we are not saved either. People tend to focus on just the death of Christ and I was suggesting that people include his Ressurection in the process, I didn't say the ressurection was nescessary, the scritpures did, in fact the ressurection is FUNDIMENTAL to having eternal life, which is not to say it is more important than Christ's death.

Well said, I agree to the above post. I think the scritpure is very clear concerning this matter disregarding any denomination of church.

I think we agreed to that already, the question was "is it nessasry for salvation" To which I think the majourity of us would reply "its not for us to judge" we know what the blbie says about baptism, that all those who believe should be baptized but if they are not does it make them not saved? Well I for one cannot answer the question for certain because I am not the judge of such things, but I personally feel that those who come to a knowledge of the truth are obligated to be baptized in order to share the RESSURECTION like Christ's, Yes blood saves, but our hope is not in the blood and death of Christ, it is in the RESSURECTION of Christ, 1Corth 15 illistrates this very clear that "If we do not belive in the ressurection our preaching is in vain" Without the shedding of blood there is no remmision for sins but without the ressurection from the dead our hope is in vain.

to re enforce what I've said above Acts 19:1-5 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. [2] And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." [3] And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." [4] And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." [5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The ones before Christ died were baptized not into salvation by Jesus but for repetence sake by John, only AFTER christ died are people baptized into his saving name, by which as Rom 6 declares we share in a death and ressurection like his. So the thief on the cross would have either been literaly baptized in the death of Christ or would not have had it (presumably) in Christ's saving name.

Well actually according to ROmans 6 first seven verses already pointed out, the thief WAS baptized, for he literaly was buried with christ in a death like his, but even if that was not the case, baptism into CHRIST has to be shared with his death so we share in a ressurection like his, but all those who were baptized BEFORE christ died were not baptized into his name, but for repentence sake, read Acts 19, after christ died it was possible to be baptized into a death and ressureciton like his, so either way you look at it, the thief was either baptized by sharing the death of christ or it wouldn't matter due to acts 19 and the fact that christ did not die and ressurected yet. peace.

A good post but one that scripture is very adimate about. Think about what SDA and I are saying. and read the scritpure, what does Paul say? He says look at the context of 2Corth 5 instaed of just posting the single verse 2 Cor. 5:8-10 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. [9] So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. Much like the other verse you quoted "when we are absent from the body we are with the Lord" but it does not say IMMIATELY, you just assume it means that, here in 2 Corth check the context at verse 10 "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ" This is when we reciever our reward, and we know when the time of judment will be, Only when Christ returns to the earth. Secondly, "To die is gain" look again at the cotnext Philip. 1:20-21 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. [21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. vrse 20 "Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death." then to die is gain, why? Because just as Paul stated in 2corth, with death comes the promise of the ressurection at Christ's return, just look over a couple of chapters in phil and you find pual saying the exact same thing: Philip. 3:10-11 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 1 Thes. 4:14-17 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. So why is it gain to die? Because in death opression stops and your life and souls stop exsisting, you know nothing and the next thing you are aware of, the ressureciton happens which pual is quite adament about. Why esle? Because Paul was constantly opressed, whipped and imprissioned, Solomon exalts the dead in Eccl 4 for not being alive due to harsh opression Eccles. 4:1-3 Again I saw all the oppressions that are done under the sun. And behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they had no one to comfort them! On the side of their oppressors there was power, and there was no one to comfort them. [2] And I thought the dead who are already dead more fortunate than the living who are still alive. [3] But better than both is he who has not yet been and has not seen the evil deeds that are done under the sun. So you see there are pletny of good reasons why to be dead is gain, but pual specifiacally says so because of the hope of the ressurection. Now you have to answer my unasnwered question, if you believe in immidatly going to heaven or hell, then what is the point of two judgements? For we "all must appear before the judement seat of Christ" when he reutnrs, but if you have already been judged to go to heaven or hell, what is the point of being judged a second time? It would defeat the purpose would it not?

Well perhaps what truebeliever is suggesting is that while God dwells in His son Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is not his own father (ie. Jesus is not literally God the father but is the son of God, thus bineg "God" made flesh..??) That is how I understand it. lets not be so judgemental about those who don't see things your way and lets let scripture do the talking and our words be few. Only Christ will judge when he returns.

I agree in not starting a debate, I was mearling laying out principals of biblical baptism. The main point is that no one here can be the judge of anyone's salvation, baptized or otherwise, but I suggest that baptism is fundimental in our walk with Christ...

Well you wern't baptized when you were 2 years old, you were sprinkled or what have you. The thing is, is that you need a knowledege of your faith before you are baptized, and only immersion in water is baptism, which comes from the greek word "baptizo" literally meaning to be "immersed in fluid" Old time taylors used to "baptize" thier clothing in dye to colour them, litteraly immersing them in dye. The bible is clear about the nessesity of believers baptism, look at the account in acts 8 with philip and the Eunach. Is baptism nessary for salvation? I belvie it is once we have a knowldege of the truth, which brings accountablity to follow God's word. If by chance you don't have the oppertunity to get immersied and you die then No one here can be the judge of weather or not you will see the kingdom, Christ alone will judge at his second comming. We can't tell you for certian weather or not you will be saved (or I will or my friend or anyone) because we don't make that deciision, all I can tell you is that God's word is clear about being immered in water after you come to a knowledge of his will... take care, my advice, read the bible thoroughly and dayly. God bless.

While I agree with you about your definitoin of sleep, I don't agree with the way you use the word spirit here, you are trying to make it soudn like the spirit is something that is immortal when in actual fact it is not. In the context of the verse you quoted in acts, the word spirit translates: pneuma, Greek 4151, Strong

We've done the Luke cpt with thief on the cross before, but to add another nail in the coffin for that as proof text as evidence of "immortal soul" immidate asension into heaven I'll copy and past my response to that topic on the thread entitled "the immortaliy of the soul" I recommend ppl interested in this to read that thread from page 5 onward... Firstly let us look at the passage Luke 23: 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (1) Paradise." Notice firstly that the thief is saying "remember WHEN you come in your kingdom" Obviously the thief knew of the Kingdom to come and the ressuection (again see 1Thes 4:15 to the end) In the Lord's Prayer "Thy Kingdom come" Not that it is immidate but will COME in the future Secondly: Jesus answered: "You ask me to remember you then, but I say unto you now . . . " (Luke 23:43). This repunctuation is not merely tinkering with the text. The Greek word "semeron" translated "today", "this day" is used as a term of emphasis.1 In the following references "semeron" qualifies this preceding verb: Luke 2:11; 22:34; Acts 20:26; 26:29; 2 Cor. 3:14,15. Luke 2 11 for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 22 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, until thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. Acts 20 26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 2 Corinthians 3 14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ. 15 But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart. Rotherham in his translation places the comma after "this day" and there are a large number of passages in the Septuagint translation in which the Greek construction corresponds to that of Luke 23:43: "I say unto you this day" corresponds to the emphatic, "I testify unto you this day", e.g. Deut. 6:6; 7:11; 8:1; 10:13; 11:8,13,28. You see because there is no puncaution in the Greek text, the translated just added the comma where ever they wanted to. However, it is far more likely that the passage reads "Assurley I say to you this day, you will be with me in paradise" Plus the context that the thief says "remember whe WHEN you come to your kingodm" proves this, as well as it is a popular phrase used eleswhere by Christ and by Pual. Someone here stated that scritpure must be consistant, I agree and this is proof. Further proof is found when CHrist says in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven Even more proof. If what you believe is true about righouts going immidaetly to Heaven when the die, then why did David not go there? He was a man after God's own heart: Acts 2 34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

SDA great posts! Lets not forget too that when the decilples saw MOses and Elijah it was a VISION not a literal sight. 1Corth15 states that if there is no ressurection from the dead then our preaching is in vain. What is the point of two judgements if you blieve you go to hell or heaven immiratlday? What happnes when Christ comes back to judge the nations, you will be judged again? What is the point then? I don't know if I call it "soul sleep" but scriputre is clear about the ressurection from the daed, not an immidate departure into "heaven or hell" For The Heaven is God's and God gave the earth to Man" Psalm 151 "Thy Kingdom COME thy will be done on EARTh as it is in heaven" When is the kingdom comming? At Christ's return, not beforehand.

The question of where you go after death is intrinscily linked to weather or not you believe the soul is immortal. For a good discussion and scripturaly presented agrument, I suggest reading the thread entitled "the immortality of the soul" from page 5 onwards. It is my belief that when you die you await for Christ's return for judgement in which you will either be deemed worthy or unworthy of his kingdom. You do not immidatly recive the reward for Christ tells us in Rev 22 that he is comming quickly and his REWARD IS WITH HIM and not before then. take care.

Anyone else have any input on this? I think the scripture is clear. Thanks, good discussion everyone.