OrthodoxCatholic

Sheeeeesh!!

Wordsower -- Have you ever done a study of the covenant of God?

Wordsower -- You have made a profound statement indeed. Love is the essence of the commandments. Our Lord reduces the Decalogue down to the essentials -- Love God supremely, love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two commandments hang all the Law and Prophets. Love is how we fulfill the covenantal relationship we are in. You see, it is a marriage (we are the Bride of Christ). In a marriage, the partners do not do good to each other in hopes of earning favor. They do good to each other out of love and unity. Love motivates the heart to works of charity and kindness one to another. And this is the way it is with our Father also. We do the works He has prepared for us (Eph. 2:10) because we love Him, not because we are trying to earn Heaven. Love means unity, and when we do that which is of the Father's will and heart, we are in unity with Him. And unity with the Father is ultimately life eternal, isn't it? So if we continue in His love, as Scripture says, we have every right to expect to share that eternally deepening relationship with Him for all eternity. But if we turn from Him, we do sever our unity with Him, and if serious enough, forfeit that great inheritance, eternal life, which our Lord Jesus Christ has obtained for all. Cordially in Christ, Brother Ed

first of all let me say that I don't subscribe to any Calvanist, Luther or whatever teaching.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. I suggest you read Gen. 15. Wrong. That is the Calvinist view, which I learned as a Presbyterian. Do you want to see a covenant being made. Go to Ezekial 16, especially this verse: Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. Now....did God make a contract with Israel, according to this analogy we are given, or did He GIVE HIMSELF TO HER? I think the answer should be fairly obvious. By the way, in case you don't see it, the language is HIGHLY SEXUAL and INTIMATE. That is what the covenant of God is. The Blessed Trinity exists in an eternal covenant of love. In fact, think on this a while. My brother is an Arian heretic and we were discussing the Trinity issue one night and I told him the following: That God is love PROVES the Trinity, for in order for God to be love, He cannot be alone. God was love before anything ever existed, but He could only be love if there was an object of His love. Thus the Godhead exists in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Who give to each other in the perfection of love. And even these words are FAR INADEQUATE to express the depths of this truth. Genesis 15 is about the corporate covenant with Abraham. It is God extending the terms of the covenant relationship which He first called Abraham into in Genesis 12. Now God passes through the animals alone to show that Abraham does not have to do anything to make these promises come to pass. It is all upon God that the Jews will inherit the land which is promised. In making covenant, there is another consideration -- the animals are an oath/promise. The one making covenant, by passing through the animals, is saying "If I do not remain faithful to my covenantal promises, may I be made like these animals [judgement]. God is taking an oath. In the same way, when it came Abraham's turn, circumcision was an oath which said "If I do not remain faithful to the covenant I am entering into now, may I be CUT OFF as this flesh is cut off." Covenants are made by both parties with certain oaths/sanctions. Both God and Abraham entered into the covenant by oath/sanction promises. We see God's oath/sanction in Gen 15. We see Abraham's in Genesis 17: 23. Yes, there are terms to a covenant, but the covenant is still in principle a giving one to another. The terms just spell out how this is to be done and the consequences if the covenant is broken. BTW -- that is what baptism does also. When we are baptized, we are taking an oath which says "If I am unfaithful to my covenant relationship with God, may I be put to death" [symbolized by going down into the watery tomb of death]. Baptism is far more serious than most people realize or have been taught because we are taking an oath. Cordially in Christ, Brother Ed

We stand for confession. And yes, I do confess, since the Scriptures tell me "If we say we have no sins we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we CONFESS our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Why don't you confess? It will do ya worlds of good!! You didn't answer my post, Keifer. I showed you the words of Christ, and you deny them with your post. He says that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood to have eternal life. And while we are at it, why didn't the Early Fathers of the Church, who learned doctrine from the apostles who were taught of Jesus, invent the "altar call" system of salvation? Perhaps your verse in Romans has a slightly different meaning in the Greek than what you have attached to it. Let's see if we can take this a bit further: Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: See verse 7? St. Paul says that those who have persevered in doing good shall receive eternal life. Why doesn't St. Paul mention a "decision for Jesus" in this picture he is painting of the Great Judgement? Jesus says the same thing: Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Jesus says they that have done good. Well, isn't that interesting. No mention of having "made a decision for Jesus". Why not? In fact, eternal life is called an inheritance in Scripture: Mr 10:17

Hey,

Angels -- You didn't understand a word I said, did you? Which to me means that you either ran to your computer to fire off a knee jerk response without really PONDERING what I said OR I spoke way over your head and where you are at theologically. I have not "arrived" with good works. I have entered into a covenant relationship with the family of God here on earth, which is the Church of the Living God. And just like one of my children (I have 6) I am in the process of growing into the fullness of the image of God. This is what Adam and Eve were called to do. This is what all human beings are called to. We are to become like our Father in Heaven. That is what being a child is all about. Children are like their parents. One does not grow into the fullness of the image of God by sitting around that thinking nice thoughts about Jesus and how He died on the Cross for our sins. That is the Protestant idea of justification. That is not the Biblical idea, however. We become like our Father when WE ACT LIKE OUR FATHER: Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Do you notice that Jesus teaches us that being children of the heavenly Father involves what we DO (works). It involves ACTING LIKE OUR FATHER. We copy what He does in acts of doing good, especially to those who hate us. We don't just sit around and have "faith alone". That was Luther's heretical idea, unwarranted by Scripture. Lu 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Again, our Lord tells us to DO SOMETHING....to be merciful. You don't show mercy by sitting around thinking nice thoughts about people. You show mercy by doing works of mercy to those who hate you, and by feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and visiting the sick. Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Oh, here's another good verse. People become sons of the wicked one BY DOING HIS WORKS!! Isn't that interesting! Therefore, the parallel to this is that we are sons of the Father by our works which are of the Father. And ultimately, it is all by grace. Scott Hahn, a convert to the Catholic Faith from Protestantism, makes this observation: "I was walking around my block one day and noticed a man trying to mow the lawn. There was a little boy pushing a toy mower with him and trying to mow with the father. It was clear that this was causing problems for the man. When I came around a second time, the man had solved the problem. In one arm he had the little boy, who had his little hands on the mower along with dad's hands, and both were pushing the mower together. Now the little boy would have said "I am mowing the grass". And the man would have said "I am loving my son. This is a good picture of how we do our good works. It is ultimately our heavenly Father's hands upon our lives which make any actions we do to happen. If He did not control our lives, we could no more do good works for Him than that little boy could push that big mower. But in like manner, just as the little boy could turn and say "Daddy, let go of me, I don't want to do this any more." so also we can shake free from our heavenly Father's grip and go our own way. We still have free will, which is part of the image of God which we bear. Try not to respond so fast to this. Think on what I have said in this and my first post. Cordially in Christ, Brother Ed

Interesting. You said: Jesus said there is only one way you can get to heaven. If you have not accepted Him as your Savior, you must or you will be condemned for eternity: However, Jesus said: Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. I think I will go with what Jesus said. I can't find anything about "accepting Jesus" in the Bible. Oh, and one other thing. I never could figure out when I really "meant it with all my heart." I don't see that language in Scripture either. And since I, as a sinner, knew that my heart was, as Scripture says "deceitful and wicked", I just couldn't get any rest about this. So I kept going up for "altar calls" until I almost ruined the carpet at the local Fundamentalist Church. But the nice thing about the Eucharist is this. It works. God promised and that's all I need to know. Brother Ed

Angels: God's salvation plan is a covenant. Unfortunately, Evangelicals (and a lot of Catholics as well) have absolutely no understanding of what a covenant is and how it works. A covenant is a relationship in which one gives oneself to another. Think marriage. (Religous leaders of two centuries ago used to refer to the covenant of marriage). In a covenant relationship, there are terms. If you would like to see how the terms of covenant are laid out, go to Deut 28 and study the covenant made between God and Israel when He gave Himself to them as a nation. Notice that there are blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience. There is no such thing as an "unconditional covenant" (you may hear some radio preachers use this term -- it is a total fiction). Covenants have terms to them. This is why marriage can be severed by adultery. That breaks the covenant and severs the relationship. Our salvation is a covenant relationship. This particular relationship is defined in terms of family. We see this from the very beginning of Scripture where Adam is called "the son of God" (Luke 3:38). Sonship is a familial term. Believers are also termed as sons and daughers. We are adopted into the family by the free grace of God through the Cross work of Christ Jesus, our Elder Brother. He is the Head of the New Covenant and the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45). As children of God, we have all the rights and priviledges of children, but we also have responsibilities. In other words, there are blessings which come by keeping the covenant with God, and there are curses which come by not keeping the covenant. When we break the family rules (sin), we distance ourself from God. If we commit certain sins, which the Church calls "mortal" sins, we are like the Prodigal Son. We are no longer in the Father's household and are severed from Him until we repent. Now, suppose the Prodigal had actually died in the "far country" of sin. Would he have recieved the inheritance which was still waiting at home for him? Of course not. We have an inheritance as God's children. That inheritance is eternal life (Matt. 19:29). In this life, the Holy Spirit is called the "earnest of the inheritance". (Eph. 1). He is the downpayment, so to speak, which promises the FULL AMOUNT IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL. You see, God uses earthly realities to teach spiritual truths. The reality of the earthly family is that children who dishonor their families are disinherited (just go to some pagan country and you will see this in action when the pagan child converts to Christianity). Faithful children receive the inheritance set aside for them. This is why the idea of "once saved -- always saved" is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. It teaches people that they can live any way they want and still expect Heaven. This is what happened in Luther's Germany. The peasants there, once they understood what Luther was teaching them, turned Germany into a cesspool of immorality. But why not? After all, it was Luther himself who said of justification that he could "fornicate 100 times in a day and still be justified before God". Yeah, right!!! Bottom line: Obedient children receive the inheritance which is laid up for them. Disobedient children do not. This is how the inheritance of eternal life works also. If we keep God's familial covenant Law (which is the Law of Love) by doing good, as God does good to all mankind, then we can expect to recieve the inheritance. If we leave the household of God for sin, and do not repent and come back to obedience, we will be disinherited at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Cordially in Christ, Brother Ed