Serving

Okay William I will answer what you are asking for .. let me quote AdHoc's post because it is short and sweet .. like my answer will be .. because sound exposition of the word goes both ways as I shall demonstrate. Let me quote AdHoc so he may be made aware of my answer too .. Will post soon ..

#1 Completely false: Jude males no such claim. #2 And the very same chapter says "he did not see death." Which you chose to override. #3 The spirit of your original post was not in good faith. It was a biased hit job on the beliefs of many. Deal first with the log in your own eye? #1 Oops, yeah my mistake, that should read this: "Proponents of Enoch 1 claim Enoch did not die by citing Genesis 5:21" .. They can site Hebrews 11 too like you did .. this sometimes happens, nobody is perfect. #2 "he did not see death" .. on page 2 of this post you will see how I answered AdHoc for context regarding how the usage of "not see death" can be applied. You do consider context when reading the scriptures right? When two opposing claims are made within a text, usually that means the text is not saying what it seems to be saying on the surface .. like Hebrews 11 is doing .. so my advice to you is dig deeper. Just while I'm thinking of it .. the concept "not see death" is not far removed from statements Christ Himself made concerning those who follow Him who will "not see death" and various other wordings conveying the same message .. nobody thinks He meant that believers would never see physical death, though certain hostile religions use that to mock Christianity because they don't understand the concept of context, at least they don't "understand" when it comes to the bible .. or, suddenly stop using it when facing opposing views, of course. You're looking at the Enoch verses the same way when concerning "not see death". You need to dig deeper. Again, page 2 .. my reply to AdHoc to see how context can explain "not see death" quite easily. #3 Ever hear the Lord say, "Blessed are the peacemakers"? What do you think the reverse of that saying would read if we changed peacemakers to troublemakers? Always striving to be a better servant of the Lord, I think about things like that you know .. do you? Anyway, again .. page 2, my reply to AdHoc covers how contextual use of Genesis 5 can solve the seeming contradiction in Hebrews 11 .. check it out.

AFlameofFire, If you read my response to AdHoc you will get a better understanding of my point of view and reasoning .. Cheers.

I disagree, Hebrews 11 is clear, Enoch died. THAT is my argument. Proponents of the book of Enoch say Enoch did not die, Hebrews 11 says he did die. That singular point IS my point .. the rest, ie: "was not", "translated" & "see death", though related and needing eventual explanation, is still not my point I was arguing .. those points would come next as a secondary and necessary follow on. Nevertheless : Enoch was 7th from Adam. Lamech was 7th from Adam. Both living at the same time. Compare for context : Gods declaration: Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Meaning : Vengeance is the Lord's and NOT mans, and not Lamech's. Lamech's boast: Genesis 4:23-24 23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. Meaning : Vengeance is not the Lords right only, but Lamech's right too .. and his (Lamech's) vengeance will be far worse than God's according to Lamech himself. Boastful ungodly speech is it not? Going directly against God's declaration right? Now, Enoch's statement/prophecy Jude 1:14-16 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. > Seems pretty relevant compared to Lamech's boastful boast don't you think? And if this came to Lamech's ear, how do you suppose Lamech would have reacted? Seeing Lamech' sons were the founders of culture/craftmanship and weapon smithing etc .. Lamech would of had access to weapons and armour right? And seeing that Lamech came from Cain's line, the seed of the serpent, whose line already has contention with Abel's line, the woman's seed as it were .. then wouldn't Lamech with his threat and his boast consider Enoch was speaking against him? And if so, then we have biblical context, though heresay, for why God "translated" Enoch so he would not "see death" Context can therefore say this : Lamech boasts his boast. Lamech's boast is in fact a boast against God Himself. Enoch rebuked Lamech's boast with his prophecy concerning, among other things, those who boast hard speeches against God This comes to Lamech's ears, this angered Lamech. Lamech plans to kill Enoch. So God translates (meaning taking from one place and placing in another) Enoch to a safe place to see out his short life so he doesn't "see death" at the hands of Lamech. Translate does not mean to go up to heaven. It means being moved from one place to another .. just like Philip was, and just like Elijah was. And not "seeing death" is not the same as not dying. It's all context. So there is context that explains your protest verses AdHoc .. So I did not fail in my thesis after all .. I do have context But again, this context is not my burden to prove simply because my argument was precise and only concerning the argument that "Enoch did not die" I did not set out to argue your provided points .. that's another argument, an argument I did not yet raise .. yet.

Proponents of 1 Enoch claim Enoch did not die by citing Jude. Proponents of 2 Enoch claim that Enoch did not die by using both Jude & 2 Enoch. I provided Hebrews 11 which states that Enoch did die .. this counters the use of Jude from the 1 Enoch camp and counters 2 Enoch at the same time. So in the overall picture, your little dig is moot and rather petty. You could have said it in a more brotherly way instead of giving offence .. "give offence to no man" remember .. perhaps you should practice that first and then you can correct others in a more Godly manner. The spirit of your letter is not in good faith .. a bad sign best rectified in prayer and repentance wouldn't you think?

Tim, I know where you are coming from .. Nevertheless, what I provided is in fact evidence enough .. because If you read 2 Enoch and then keep reading all of Enoch in it's entirety, nowhere does it say he died .. instead, it clearly reads that Enoch was taken alive (contextually) to heaven not just once, but taken and returned and taken again several times .. nowhere does it say Enoch dies but instead says that he was taken to heaven alive (contextually) and now resides in heaven. And I agree with "them" that the book of Enoch does not contextually say that Enoch died either, it is in the very context of the chapter let alone the rest of the book itself .. it can not be denied contextually, so I am going along with "their" argument that Enoch did not die and using it against them. That is the evidence proponents of Enoch use in many many debates for the last near decade .. "they" argue contextually that Enoch never died from the writings within Enoch itself .. and the actual bible verse mentioning Enoch is an argument "they" further use to support their original claim .. that Enoch never died .. never died in both books. So it is not my argument that Enoch never died, but the supporters of Enoch make that claim .. My post is a refutation to their claims of Enoch not dying .. and that is what I did .. Thus, by them asking me to explain any other point (Enoch "not seeing death" etc) other than the single point I already made, is actually outside the parameters of my argument and not valid. The burden of proof now falls on "their" shoulders, not mine. It's a stand alone claim (Enoch did not die), and I provided a stand alone counter (he did die) I don't see how this is not sufficient evidence .. one claim v's one counter claim .. The evidence is more than sufficient on my behalf, and it's a very strong argument all by itself in my estimation Tim, which is why I felt I need not introduce any other evidence than that which I already provided. Cheers Tim

(sorry) .. And here : 36 |God commanded Enoch to live on the earth for 30 days, to impart knowledge to his sons and to his children’s children. After 30 days he was taken up to heaven once more. Word “32.”| That was when Enoch was supposedly taken to heaven the 2nd time .. then he comes and goes again within the same chapter .. nowhere did he die during these processes nor anywhere else in the book of Enoch.

Sure .. 2 Enoch 1a The story of Enoch: how the Lord took him to heaven.

If we can prove that Enoch died .. then the book of Enoch is proven a false heresy, a doctrine of demons .. something to be scorned and rejected by the followers of the Lord .. but only if we can prove Enoch did in fact DIE. Now take note of these : Hebrews 11:1-13 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. And what happened to all of these above? 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. ======= So Enoch died after all .. but the book of Enoch claims he did not die .. this means one thing and one thing only .. that the book of Enoch is a false testimony .. it is a LIE. We can not dispute Hebrews 11, it is as plain as day .. no matter how much you like that book of Enoch, of whose doctrines you mixed with God's written word .. it is now incumbent on us all to fully reject that heretical book and any teachings we have mixed with God's written word .. and especially the ones mixed with God's prophecies .. we must purge them all away, we no longer have excuse to endorse such a writing .. so don't. The book of Enoch lied .. There is no longer any excuse.

Disclaimer .. I did not work this out, nor do I know what else this group teaches, but this link below after consideration and testing it out myself, it rings true to me, for the full context go to :

Go check your bibles .. Concerning Elijah : > Elijah was taken by God's chariot at the beginning of Jehoram's reign .. taken at the beginning .. beginning .. beginning of his reign. So Elijah was taken and Elisha took his place. However scripture reveals that near the end of king Jehoram's reign .. near the end of his reign and not the beginning of his reign but near the end of Jehoram's reign .. somebody sent king Jehoram a prophetic letter .. Who sent this letter? Behold: (letter sent to Jehoram) 2 Chronicles 21:12-20 12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself: 14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: 15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day. 16 Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians: 17 And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away all the substance that was found in the king's house, and his sons also, and his wives; so that there was never a son left him, save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons. 18 And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. 19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers. 20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings. Elijah sent the letter !!! But Elijah should be in heaven seeing that he was "taken" in God's chariot before the above event !! Elijah should be in heaven right? How can this be? Well the only conclusion can only be that Elijah was not taken to heaven as in spiritual heaven after all, but was instead taken to heaven meaning taken/travelling through the heaven, meaning, taken up into the sky and flown away to somewhere else .. Heaven being the old or biblical way to say both sky or spiritual heaven itself according to the context. Think on it for it has great ramifications for our understanding of Enoch and Moses too. This is all I care to share for now.

If the angels did not warn Lot and his family to leave the city and flee, then they all would have died .. obviously. Seeing that they were told to leave the city by the word of the Lord expressed through his angels, wouldn't that then meant that they were "taken" out of the city? "Taken" by God's instruction? Therefore, shouldn't we at least consider that this : .. that the above "taken" could likewise be along the lines of Lot's removal from the city at the angels behest instead of a spiritual "snatching away" or a "taken up" type scenario some denominations teach? Again, as I said before .. a disclaimer .. I too was captured by my own interpretation that likewise concentrated on that word "taken" as being a spiritual "taken up", it is just that I can not see it that way anymore .. as per my post. I seek to be no teacher BTW, I am just putting this "out there" for consideration and for those who like doing their own personal intellectual inquiry. After all, god does say, "Come, let us reason together" right? It is personal inquiry after all, which reaps personal gain/growth confidence in ones trust in scriptures yes? It is far better that we are personally confident rather than our priest/apologist etc etc etc etc instead being confident for us .. yes/no? Regards.

Greetings friend, To be honest, I'm not 100% sure of your main point, nevertheless, I do agree, of course, that the followers in Christ do indeed make up the temple whereby Christ is the Head. Regards.

Greetings Retrobyter. Nice to hear from you, and thanks. We are in agreement on that, nice. Regards.

Hi Uriah, yes I agree. I would call that an overall generalization opposed to a more specified explanation, nevertheless, it is still a sound biblical observation and yes, I agree with you overall. Regards.

Lol, Yeah that happens, I'll keep that in mind. Regards.

Bring on his argument. He got hot under the collar, don't know why ..

Oh really? Bring it on mate.

Hi brother, Here's the thing, we all know the false prophet sets up in Israel, how he conquers it and sets up there .. but we also know that at the very end stages that Israel gets attacked again when all the kings of the East come to Megiddo for the last great battle .. So the false prophet who is ruling from Israel is now being attacked after he already attacked and conquered Israel, the world order he crafted has fallen apart .. now is war, war, war. Half of the already taken over city gets attacked .. remember the Medes and her allies prophecy whereby they enter into the houses and rifle the women etc etc .. that happens at the last battle, not at the first attack on Israel. So we got two battles whereby Israel is attacked in that short space of time within that last 3 1/2 years. I'm still piecing this new outlook together, when you work out scriptures for yourself, it takes a bit of time because when a new door of understanding opens, you find yourself in a hallway with a bunch of other doors you have to enter for to sort the loose ends out .. or even see things in a new light emanating off of those things you thought clearly understood but in fact may have been deeper than first presumed. Something more is going on and I have a lot of work to do .. Perhaps I spoke too early by posting this thread, perhaps I should have waited until I worked through all the questions this new insight has brought up .. I was just so excited I couldn't hold it in .. my bad, but it's too late now I suppose, I will have to do this on the fly. Regards.

Hi brother, I can see that you are drawing parallels, that's fine .. you are also expressing a process .. that's fine too, I hear you. But here's the thing .. This is the end result for Jerusalem within the Ezekiel prophecy/thread you have mentioned : Ezekiel 5:14 Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by. And here is the end result for Jerusalem in the prophecy in Zechariah : Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. These are opposite. I can see you agree with the main topic of this post I laid out using Luke, we have common ground, you understand and see it .. That's great. But I don't think Ezekiel 4 & 5 are speaking of the same event because of the differing outcomes for Jerusalem I laid out above .. Leave it with you, Regards.

Edited a long winded answer, wasn't 100% accurate, was using an analogy, went with it, and didn't say what I was really meaning .. Answer: Yes Truth727 amongst the recorded events taking place, there are those verses you quoted and your interpretation is correct, we agree on the message. But there are also events taking place in that verse whereby the message within that you commented on are directly linked to the events that are taking place in real time (at that time). The events taking place is the focus, we all know the message/warning and what it means .. that's why I edited .. I waffled on and got distracted. Regards.

Another insight : Luke 17:30-37 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. ------------------- What do you suppose happens to these below, who are not taken : 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. V32 is a reminder, a warning .. 32 Remember Lot's wife. This is what happens to those who are "left" in Israel .. those who did not >>flee<< .. just as Lot had to flee .. Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. They will be destroyed.

Hi brother, Maybe read Zechariah first. Seeing that Christ gathers His saints to meet Him in the clouds at His arrival, not one saint needs to flee for their lives .. not in Luke, not anywhere ever again .. yet they are fleeing for their lives in Luke .. fleeing while the Lord is watching them from the clouds. Seeing that they are not taken to Christ in the clouds, and are told to >> flee << ,then we must conclude that those in Luke are the same as these ones below in Zechariah who are likewise >> fleeing << after .. after .. after Christ's arrival in the clouds : Zechariah 14 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. --------------------------- No saint needs to flee anything when the Lord appears in the clouds .. unless of course .. you were not a saint of Christ's. They will be however become Christ's during the millennial reign. Taught by saints, overseen and aided by the resurrected and of course, the King of Kings Himself. Just compare the scriptures of Luke and Zechariah above, both scriptures confess that Christ has arrived, He is in the clouds .. there is a war raging (against Christ) and there are human survivors in Jerusalem being told to flee under Christ's direction yet, yet He is not gathering them to Himself in the clouds, they are not changed into spirit and they flee for their lives against something terrible that is headed their way, so terrible that the Lord has to cause a great earthquake and open up a valley through the mountains for these humans to flee through so they can survive. These do not sound like saints to me, they will be, but not at that point. Leave it with you. Regards.