Serving
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Hi Salty,
In Revelation, there are event associations directly linked to prophecy from the Book of Daniel, not just one, but several.
I agree, we have no problem there....I'd even admit that the OT is full of prophecies relevant to these end days, for sure...Isaiah for example is loaded with them, Jeremiah has a few too...some very very interesting chapters, Ezekiel likewise, Daniel has them, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi...
Just not the 70 weeks prophecy.
What Apostle Paul said in Ephesians 2 to Christ's Body regarding the foundation of the Church to include the OT prophets cannot be discarded.
I couldn't agree more...nothing is to be discarded, nothing...except....inaccurate interpretations. (I'm generalizing here, I'm speaking overall, not pointing a gun)
I'll explain...
Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Simple enough...
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Just so you know Salty, I see where you are coming from, no problem, I understand your angle, but I don't think what you interpret is really what it is saying.
For example,when I asked you how many foundations there were in Christ's temple, the answer was twelve...not 24...not 48...(meaning prophets) but twelve. (not that you gave any of those numbers or answered)
12 pillars being the foundations of the New covenant, and Christians are built upon that foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone..
So where are the prophets in this foundation?
They certainly aren't represented In this New covenant foundation...and as you say, we can not discard scripture...therefore we can not deny that the New covenant is built upon 12 foundations only...
So where are the prophets, and why aren't they included in the foundation?
They can't be in the same building...(YET), because Christs building is only made up of those in Christ...and Christ began his building upon 12 foundations only
So that forces us back to looking at the foundations...but they are still not there, they just aren't there...all we find are the 12.
So what is going on?
Something doesn't fit, something is contradicting...
Could it be that the actual meaning has to do with what the prophets were speaking and not the prophets themselves?
That is, we are all founded on the word of God.
Because both covenants came from the same source
Our bible does contain both foundations, the Old Testament and the New...the Old was leading men towards the New...yes...but that doesn't make Judaism become Christianity...otherwise we still wouldn't have Judaism today...so there is a definite division...
And understanding this brief example as it is...doesn't the contradiction now become harmony?
No new doctrines needed after all?
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
We could even go as far to say this verse has a duality for when the Judaic Jews by election, from all generations, are brought back during the millennium and learn Christ.
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Because we (Christians) ...also... are builded together...and the mortar that binds us is the word of God.
Apostle Peter also said this when speaking to Christ's Church...
2 Pet.3
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
If you really think about it Salty...this is backing what I am saying perfectly...
What is the focus concerning the prophets?
Their fellowship with Christians?
Their doctrine?
OR...
...their words...
Those prophets declared prophecies...not Christ's doctrine...and Christians should heed their words too...because they prophesied about many things which will affect us all...hence be mindful...and this understanding is a big difference compared to speaking the same doctrinal word....thus it is technically not the same meaning as what you are putting forth...I believe.
Salty, this post is getting too big, will answer your last statement tomorrow or the next when I am able....
Thanks brother.
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When you refer to a singular passage, there probably will not be any duality. Since scripture backs up scripture, where else do we read about the last week? You have to take all of scripture into account when speaking of the 70th week, which has not yet come. There are far too many prophecies not fulfilled to make that claim.
Hi OneLight,
I hear what you are saying, and would agree in most cases...but this singular verse was more than a mere singular verse, it was all the criteria Israel must meet which happens to only take up one single verse...thus it is a stand alone verse:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
Concerning the rest of the verses, they play no bearing whatsoever on the conditions, because they are not the conditions, they are the prophetic details.
Two different classifications...wouldn't you agree?
Thanks.
Let's look at it all, keeping it in context.
Daniel 9:20-27
Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
"Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
I fail to see how the rest of the chapter does not fit into the verse 24 since it explains the verse and continues the criteria.
So, let me try to understand you correctly, are you saying that the 70 weeks are complete?
Hi OneLight,
I was saying that v24 contained the whole criteria to be met....and that the other verses are the details concerning verse 24...
And my point was that the last criteria to be met was the anointing...and how that anointing happened after Messiah was cut off...crucified...
And since Christ was anointed when he ascended, and v24 included that in it's 70 weeks as the last event...then it is fulfilled.
Sorry im a bit out of touch debating and getting my point across...hopefully I'll improve.
Hi OneLight,
I was just going over your reply and noticed something...
The scriptures we are using are not saying the same thing...
This is what you gave:
"Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Whose ending verses are not saying the same as this:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
???
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When you refer to a singular passage, there probably will not be any duality. Since scripture backs up scripture, where else do we read about the last week? You have to take all of scripture into account when speaking of the 70th week, which has not yet come. There are far too many prophecies not fulfilled to make that claim.
Hi OneLight,
I hear what you are saying, and would agree in most cases...but this singular verse was more than a mere singular verse, it was all the criteria Israel must meet which happens to only take up one single verse...thus it is a stand alone verse:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
Concerning the rest of the verses, they play no bearing whatsoever on the conditions, because they are not the conditions, they are the prophetic details.
Two different classifications...wouldn't you agree?
Thanks.
Let's look at it all, keeping it in context.
Daniel 9:20-27
Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
"Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
I fail to see how the rest of the chapter does not fit into the verse 24 since it explains the verse and continues the criteria.
So, let me try to understand you correctly, are you saying that the 70 weeks are complete?
Hi OneLight,
I was saying that v24 contained the whole criteria to be met....and that the other verses are the details concerning verse 24...
And my point was that the last criteria to be met was the anointing...and how that anointing happened after Messiah was cut off...crucified...
And since Christ was anointed when he ascended, and v24 included that in it's 70 weeks as the last event...then it is fulfilled.
Sorry im a bit out of touch debating and getting my point across...hopefully I'll improve.
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Serving
The problem is you are using replacement theology. The Decree is for Daniels People and Daniels Holy City, Not for Jesus Christ.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Hi Montana,
That is what I was saying...
The decree was for Daniels people and Daniels holy city...not concerning Jesus Christ and Christians...but concerning those under the old covenant.
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rollinTHUNDER, on 21 Sept 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:
The anointed one (Christ) was cut off after 69 weeks and had nothing, but the last trump has not blown yet and the fat lady has not started to sing. Christ' coming will most definitely be a dual prophecy. He will be returning to rule and reign with His saints for one thousand years after the tribulation, which will complete the 70th week.
His first coming fulfilled the spring feasts and His second coming will fulfill the fall feasts.
All doubters can wait outside!!!!
Cheers
Hi Thunder,
Perhaps dwell on this criteria God gave to Israel a little more:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
You should notice that the 70 weeks were completed at Christs anointing.
Q: And what happened during the midst of the week?
A: Christ was cut off
Q: What happened after Christ was cut off?
A: He ascended
Q: What happened at his ascension?
A: He was anointed.
Thus: and to anoint the most holy. was fulfilled.
Scripture is not about what we want it to be...it is about what it actually is.
All doubters can wait outside!!!
Just make sure that doubter unbeknown to you...isn't you, because by that stage, I won't be able to help you at all.
What I see this 70 week doctrine doing is forcing scripture to comply to it...whereas it should be the other way round.
And that is a sure sign of error.
Cheers.
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Hi Salty,
One may recognize that as your opinion, doesn't mean you're correct though just because you're not seeing it yet.
Your opinion is noted.
If all that was written were The Old Testament Books, then you would have a point there. But The New Testament Books are written to show fulfilled prophecies first given from the OT, and then future things yet to occur which agree with OT Scripture that has yet to be fulfilled.
Per Apostle Paul, when it comes to Christ's many-membered Body, there is no distinction between Jew or Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus, and heirs as children of Abraham (Romans; Galatians).
You may have missed me stating this:
Again, THEY, Israel, those under the OLD COVENANT were given the 70 week time limit..
Regarding what you posted, you might have missed this point: for all are one in Christ Jesus.
One can not be in Christ until one has the doctrine of Christ.
Thus you are merely adding opinion into scripture.
In Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted Scripture from Hosea to... Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. But God gave His Word through His prophet Hosea specifically to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel). How is it then, that Apostle Paul, a learned scholar of the OT by one of the best Hebrew OT scholars of his day, Gamaliel, would speak those Hosea prophecies to GENTILES?
Thus because of New Testament doctrine per The New Covenant, something changed with that idea of Daniel's people, didn't it? Yes, and you're not even considering the scattering of the seed of Israel among Gentiles, with both having believed on Christ Jesus. So your application of Dan.9 about who all Daniel's people are today is already on weak standing.
Firstly, I wasn't speaking about today, hence the post, no duality, the 70 weeks is already fulfilled.
Secondly, again, I direct you to this statement:
Again, THEY, Israel, those under the OLD COVENANT were given the 70 week time limit..
I certainly hope you don't consider those Israelites even today who are under the old covenant as Christians?
Thus, all you have quoted and said play absolutely no bearing on what I am saying...different subject all together I'm afraid.
Wrong. The remnant according to the election of grace that Apostle Paul declared in Romans 11 are... Christian.
You have erred...you need to read it again, the remnant being spoken of, if you read further on, are concerning the promises of old that God made...and it concerns this group:
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes; but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Enemies of the gospel are clearly not Christian wouldn't you agree?
Salty, I can see that your viewpoint is shaping the scriptures instead of letting the scriptures shape your viewpoint....hence your error.
Christ's Apostles and disciples per Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 declared them as part of the foundation, and Christ Jesus as the Cornerstone, and EVEN the OT prophets as part of that foundation!
Eph.2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Not so, it is not saying what you are forcing it to say at all...
I only see opinion influencing discernment here I'm afraid.
So firstly...a question...before getting to my point...
How many foundations are found in Christs completed temple?
Thanks.
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When you refer to a singular passage, there probably will not be any duality. Since scripture backs up scripture, where else do we read about the last week? You have to take all of scripture into account when speaking of the 70th week, which has not yet come. There are far too many prophecies not fulfilled to make that claim.
Hi OneLight,
I hear what you are saying, and would agree in most cases...but this singular verse was more than a mere singular verse, it was all the criteria Israel must meet which happens to only take up one single verse...thus it is a stand alone verse:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
Concerning the rest of the verses, they play no bearing whatsoever on the conditions, because they are not the conditions, they are the prophetic details.
Two different classifications...wouldn't you agree?
Thanks.
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Good post Serving.
I brought this up in another post, and got no response.
I totally agree, the 70 weeks is fulfilled, and was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Since then, abominations continue.
Hi Sister,
It's good we agree, and yes, the desolation continues and will continue until Christ returns...
Thanks.
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thank you Serving. I shall follow and wait for the next part with great interest. There is such a need to look carefully at scripture, and in particular, prophecy, and not build in what is not there..
Thanks pawz, and I agree with what you said too.
I'll just answer whatever needs to be answered before putting together the next part...couple more days or so.
Cheers.
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PART 1
I acknowledge that God uses dualities within his prophecies, how he slips in future prophecies hidden amongst past and fulfilled prophecies...
But this new age 70 week prophecy interpretation so many Christians are into as though it were relevant to, and part of, todays events....I don't buy it.
I see absolutely no duality at all, and I do see duality in many prophecies, just not this one....let me explain...
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
>Seventy weeks are determined upon THY people)
Thy means SINGULAR...thus, on YOUR people..Daniels people...that is, national Israel....
This is important, God is speaking to ISRAEL the people/nation, not to Christians...there is no replacement theology taking place here at all...it is purely Semetic.
>and upon Thy holy city)
YOUR holy city...Daniel & his people's city...Israel's city...which is Jerusalem.
Scripture is replete with references identifying Israel's (THY/Daniels) holy city...it is Jerusalem...this should be enough to stop this 70 week replacement theology doctrine in it's tracks, in my opinion, but that's just me.
Nevertheless, 70 weeks are given to Israel and her holy city Jerusalem (remember, Jerusalem is not yet rebuilt at the giving of this prophecy) from the days of Daniel right up to the rebuilding & eventual destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.
That is the time allotment... a time allotment given to national Israel and her holy city, not to Christians.
Moving on...
The criteria Daniels people (Israeli's not Christians) must meet:
1 >To finish the transgression.
The first covenant was continually transgressed, this covenant was made with Israel, not Christians, and sacrifices were needed on a perpetual basis under this covenant. But God was not going to contend with man forever. So God ended the transgression by heralding in a new covenant which would finish the transgression by means of a final blood sacrifice through his son.
2 >and to make reconciliation for iniquity.
Jesus would reconcile Israel (first) to God through his blood, now Israel's iniquities committed under the old covenant can be reconciled to God through Christ.
3 >and to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Since Jesus reconciled those willing Israelites to God through his blood, everlasting righteousness is now in place, and on offer, through Christ the door.
4 >and to seal up the vision and prophecy.
This vision and prophecy is sure, set in stone, sealed with a time limit.
5 >and to anoint the most holy.
Christ was anointed at ascension.
Notice the last point is the fulfilment of the 70 weeks...the anointing.
So seventy weeks concludes at the anointing...concludes for THY (Daniel's) people.
This is past, finished, a prophecy for Israel and only Israel.
Now I acknowledge that there are processes within this prophecy that are still taking place today, coming to Christ, being reconciled etc...but that is moot, irrelevant, because the processes explained were targeted at a particular group...THY people...Daniel's people...National Israel...and THEY were given the time limit...not Christians.
Again, THEY, Israel, those under the OLD COVENANT were given the 70 week time limit, not Christians who were never under the old covenant, but National Israel, and the 70 weeks is to climax at the appearing and ascension of their Messiah right up to the destruction (for rejecting their Messiah) of Jerusalem in 70ad...(explained later within the prophecy)
There is just no room for duality here, it is precise in context, time given, and eventual outcome for not meeting the requirements, and all requirements are aimed at one group and one group only...and that group is those Israeli's under the old covenant, from the time of Daniel and THY/HIS people, Israel, until the ascension and anointing of Christ, through to the destruction of Jerusalem (explained later in the prophecy)...all relating to that same group of people since DANIELS DAYS...old covenant bound Israel....through to the desolation poured out in 70ad.
I am purposely keeping this brief, I know most people dislike large posts, so I will divide this 70 week prophecy into segments to further explain the points regarding the whole prophecy.
So until PART 2...thanks.
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Hi LAMAD,
No error made. What is written is written. John wrote with GOD GIVEN chronology.
The visions themselves were given chronologically, yes, but not the order of events.
No changes or rearranging is necessary.
No changes were made LAMAD, and as for the rearranging, the information within the verses did that all on their own as i already explained.
if you THINK rearranging is necessary, it will be up to you to PROVE such a theory.
I will go over it again for you...but first:
Of course, there are some parenthesis that are an exception to this rule. For example, 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis about the birth of the Lord Jesus somewhere around 2 BC. of course that would not fit in John's 70th week chronology. It is why it is a parenthesis.
Hmmm, I see, first give whatever conflicts with a theory a name, then, include the confliction as though it were a mere part of that theory all along...and...shazzam...a contradiction no more!! ....
Neat trick...just one problem though...it is only a trick...
Because here is an example of Parenthesis:
Its a section in a sentence that only adds to the sentence, and would still make sense without it. A parenthesis can sometimes be seperated from a sentence by commas or brackets.
What you described was not parenthesis, LAMAD, but a personal view.
Yes, this statement of yours was addressed. Perhaps I did not "get it" and you need to make it clearer. Please, go over it again. Or, perhaps I did get it, and disagreed.
Perhaps i should go over it again because you didn't get it?
OR
Perhaps i should go over it again because you did get it, yet disagreed?
Hmmm....
It is OBVIOUS what the plagues are: they are what happens on earth when an associated vial is poured out. The plague then, for example, is the sea turning to blood. It is accomplished with the wrath of God (the vial) on an unrepentant world. The sea turning to blood then is not the vial, it is the plague, accomplished WITH the vial. This is showing us the REASON why God is turning the sea into blood. It is His WRATH.
LAMAD, i'm sure you understand what plagues are...no need to explian.
The trumpets at this time are OVER and completed. The vials and associated plagues are a NEW SET of judgments, much worse than the trumpets.
Here is where i disagree.
Now the interesting thing out of this...is this...
If we go by your method of chronological order, then you, by your own admittance, have no other choice but to agree with me...
So, LAMAD, I will explain again...
Rev 15:5 And after that i looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Did you notice it was within a chronological order LAMAD?
So...one last time...
1 Seven angels come out of a temple...v5
2 Seven angels having the seven plagues...having means that the plagues are still on their person...that means unused...so seven angels come out of a temple with seven unblown trumpets (plagues)..v6
3 THEN one of the four beasts gives the seven angels, seven vials...v7
And that is it LAMAD!! ...seven angels come out of a temple with seven trumpets, which they have not yet used (having), and before they even use them, they are given seven golden vials...which means that each angel has one trumpet and one vial each.
And since they are in a chronological order that obeys your demand...and within the same chapter...I am glad to say that we are now in full agreement...wouldn't you?
I'm interested to hear your response whenever you are ready..
Cheers LAMAD.
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Hi LAMAD,
I think you need to read what I was saying one more time and I think you will realize that this statement of yours has already been addressed:
Nice trick, slipping verses from chapter 15 right in the list of verses from chapter 8, AS IF THEY WERE MEANT TO BE PUT TOGETHER.
However, John did not put them together. Did you notice how John wrote if it was the same angel he had seen before? Rev. 17:1 John wrote "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me," And again in 21:9; "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me," John does not say that with any of the trumpet angels. We could guess then that the vial angels are different than the trumpet angels.
What happens when one of the plague and vial angels pours out his vial? That is the plague associated with the vial. What event actually happens is the plague, and the vial shows that the plague is coming from God's wrath.
THERE IS NO NEED to rearrange the book!
However, if for some reason you don't notice it, again, then I will gladly go over it, again.
if we study, we will see that the events of the vials are DIFFERENT than the events of the trumpets, and cannot be talking of the same events.
Again, if you go over what I was saying one more time, I think you will find that this has already addressed in my explanation.
Oh, and LAMAD, one last thing friend, you made a BIG error saying this:
In other words, something read in a given chapter, say chapter 11, will ALWAYS be after the events of the previous chapter. We are not allowed to mix them up or rearrange them. Anyway, you desire to rearrange to fit your theory. Why not form your theory from what is written and in the order it is written? Wouldn't that make more sense?
If you want to take it back, we can forget you said it, no harm done...otherwise... I will use it against you...lol...up to you!
Cheers.
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I've always believed that the trumps & vials are the same event.
This is what I have found, and it more than confirms it for me:
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Notice these Seven angels coming out of that temple already possess/have with them, the seven plagues!
That is important.
What plagues?
When were these plagues given to them since they have not yet received the vials?
Then when we read on, we see this occur:
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
So these seven angels already had (having = possessing = still carrying = (in this case) not yet initiated) the seven plagues, but are then additionally given seven other items....the vials!
So the question becomes....what are these seven plagues they had on their persons whilst coming out of that temple before being given the seven vials?
And the only answer possible, and in context, can only be that they are in possession of seven trumpets.
So trumpet in one hand....vial in the other.
But are the trumpets plagues?
(Briefly...) In Rev 9:20, in the "trumpet section" and as a consequence of the trumps, we find the descriptive "plagues".... 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues.....
So by that admission, we can be sure that the effects of the seven trumpets are indeed described by scripture, as we just saw, (so no personal interpretation needed), as.......plagues!
Briefly, and in summary, this is what I was able to put together to complete the picture for this scenario to confirm that the vials and the trumps are indeed the same event.... all based on the seven angels already being given and still in possession of seven plagues...only to be given additional "items" and all before the first plagues are even initiated!
That tells me I am permitted to then do this: (since they are a related event and answers the question for itself)...
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And i saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angels hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 15:5 And after that i looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, til the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Peace.
Pretty much correct, because our Lord Jesus only gave us 7 signs of the end in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21).
In His Olivet Discourse He gave us a specific timing for when those 7 signs would start with the final generation that will see His coming. He used the parable of the fig tree to point to that. I believe it was 1948 when Israel became a nation state again, based on the Jer.24 baskets of figs prophecy. Some believe it was 1967, etc. But the main point is... the generation that begins to see those signs, that generation will not pass until they see His coming. If 1948, then that generation is already 66 years old.
I agree with 1948 also....I also believe Israel has been allotted only 70 years since 1948 before Jacobs trouble begins...but that's another subject.
peace.
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I understand your analogy but see it differently.
I do not see the trumps & vials as a seperate to each other, nor see the trumps & vials performing as a gradual-progressive warning method for the inhabitants of the earth, instead I see the trumps & vials as outright punishment for the worlds accepting of the beast and its king with his mark.
Not only that, but for the killing of the saints who refused the mark...other words, i see it as plain punishment for punishment deserved and nothing less.
I agree with you that the seals span over time and are progressive, but i do not agree that the trumps and vials are seperate events...i do see stages taking place between each trump and pouring of a vial before the next trump and his pouring of his vial etc etc...but just how long between trump blast and pouring...not clear enough to tell admittedly.
Nevertheless, the below scripture speaks of those saints killed for Christ by the world, and they are to be revenged by God at the appropiate time of His choosing.
So in support of my stance, in my view, i can see this request being fulfilled in the culminating trump & vial time allotment:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
So i see the 5th seal as the age in which the persecution of the saints is taking place and leading up to the punishment on the world that chose the mark of the beast instead of choosing Christ.
This is where i see their prayer being answered:
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Now God is acting on their prayers, He is now "hearing them", that is, He is accepting their request at that point in time as the time to revenge His saints, as vengeance is His after all...
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
This is the sign (earthquake etc) that punishment (trumps & vials) are about to commence, that God is honoring His word to His saints that the world will be punished and they (saints) will be avenged.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Then Gods revenging of His saints is completed at the 7th trumpet & vial which is concluded and proclaimed here:
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Which is concerning this:
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Which is part of this:
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Which is also because of this:
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Again, punishment for punishment deserved and not a progressive warning sequence, but, instead, a final and progressive punishment on that particular generation of the children of the mark whose punishment all begins here:
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Wrath is for punishments sake, not for warning, that time has already passed, by this stage at the commencing of the trumps & vials, the door of the ark as it were, are already shut and sealed...the rain has already begun to fall....
This is part of what I see anyway...
Cheers.
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I've always believed that the trumps & vials are the same event.
This is what I have found, and it more than confirms it for me:
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Notice these Seven angels coming out of that temple already possess/have with them, the seven plagues!
That is important.
What plagues?
When were these plagues given to them since they have not yet received the vials?
Then when we read on, we see this occur:
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
So these seven angels already had (having = possessing = still carrying = (in this case) not yet initiated) the seven plagues, but are then additionally given seven other items....the vials!
So the question becomes....what are these seven plagues they had on their persons whilst coming out of that temple before being given the seven vials?
And the only answer possible, and in context, can only be that they are in possession of seven trumpets.
So trumpet in one hand....vial in the other.
But are the trumpets plagues?
(Briefly...) In Rev 9:20, in the "trumpet section" and as a consequence of the trumps, we find the descriptive "plagues".... 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues.....
So by that admission, we can be sure that the effects of the seven trumpets are indeed described by scripture, as we just saw, (so no personal interpretation needed), as.......plagues!
Briefly, and in summary, this is what I was able to put together to complete the picture for this scenario to confirm that the vials and the trumps are indeed the same event.... all based on the seven angels already being given and still in possession of seven plagues...only to be given additional "items" and all before the first plagues are even initiated!
That tells me I am permitted to then do this: (since they are a related event and answers the question for itself)...
Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And i saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angels hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 15:5 And after that i looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, til the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Peace.
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Hi Jesse,
Here's a good one:
Judges 7:16 And he divided the three hundred men into three companies, and he put a trumpet in every mans hand, with empty pitchers, and lamps within the pitchers.
so scripturally, just on this point, there is nothing conflicting scripturally about the possibility of the 7 angels having a trump in one hand and a vial in the other....
peace.
Where is the duality?
in Prophecy
Posted
Thank you mevosper....
I actually believe there will be a physical anointing too...still to come...yes....when all flesh will see the Lord crowned and rule over the earth in power...
....during the millennium.
And your summation...."going forward"...good...you're on to it....exactly my meaning...
Thanks brother.