JLW001

SA, I don't know what to say. I'm at a loss. You can rant and rave all you want...but 1/inf=0 Let me see how many other links I can post to show you that...but first, You have no idea about fourier analysis if you don't think that 1/inf=0. Do you know why? Because that's one of the concepts that makes Fourier analysis work! Let me link you to several other sites that do indeed show the same thing that mathforum.org shows. I thought it would be quite nice to show you the truth from the same site that you thought to deceive with. Btw, which link on mathforum.org is incorrect? Neither. Infinity is not a counting number. But you and others who read this will indeed see that we can still use it to some extent. Namely, those properties I listed from mathforum.org. Now, let me demonstrate to your great mathematical mind (btw I noticed in another thread that you claimed a bachelors degree in math, was that bachelors of arts or science) in more concrete terms. Do you recall the concept of limits? Right now lets look at the algebraic function, Y = 1/(2*n) Let's draw a graph of Y verses n....or in this case a list of numbers if n=1, y=0.5 if n=2 and so on and on. Now where does that graph stop, SA? It doesn't. OK, then how can I know what number the value of "Y" approaches for really big numbers of "n". Why, let's use limit theory! Good idea. You do remember limit theory don't you, SA? OK...let's use the limit as n=10^100. So, we plug and chug and get Y=5x10^-101. That's scientific notation in case you wanted to know. It represents a decimal point with one hundred zeros to the left of it and the the 5. No, that's not a big enough "n". I'm mean really big! How about the biggest! INFINITY. Yaaay! Now we get to use our limit theory. if we say what is the limit on the value of Y as n gets larger and larger and goes to infinity. in limit theory notation (as adapted to text)... LIM (1/(2*n)) = are you ready! ...........................ZERO. n->inf Now, if that is too much for your great mathematical mind (as opposed to me alowly engineer )to get, SA, then I'm sorry. BUT, you don't have to take my word for it...................... http://tutorial.math.lamar.edu/AllBrowsers...sOfInfinity.asp http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/math99/math99008.htm http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,...i809150,00.html http://www.jimloy.com/algebra/two.htm http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Infinity.html I've got to go, but I'll have more links later on.

I'm sorry, I mis-stated the journal for my thermocapillary work. It was Numerical Methods in Heat and Mass Transfer.

Look, SA. I don't need to justify any of my cognitive ability to you, but I will so that others who read this can see. I have a Masters of Science Degree in Chemical Engineering. I completed my Thesis on Least Squares Finite Element Methods for solving the Navier-Stokes Equations. That's computational fluid dynamics. I have written hundreds of pages of computer code in Fortran77 for the numerical solution of these flow equations in applications for open boudary conditions for water flow as well as modeling the dispersion of pollutants in the atmosphere using turbulent models with 31 chemical reactions that involved stiff-systems of ODEs (that's ordinary differential equations) in the chemistry. I have published three papers, journal articles, in peer reviewed journals of good reputation. I have made a good breakthrough in the thermo-capillary flow involved in molten metals. That is the paper I am most proud of. It was publish in the Journal of Heat and Mass Transfer. I left school with my Masters but was only a year away from my doctorate. I left because of the birth of my son. Now, I have completed four semesters of calculus. I have completed graduate classes in mathematics all the way to Fourier solutions for Partial Differential equations. That includes matrix algebra, advanced calculus, two symesters of functional analysis, and advanced solutions of large sparse matrices that result from complex systems. Let's see. Let me demonstrate to you the idea behind why we can use infinity in arithematic operations. 1*inf = inf 2*inf= inf .. .. inf*inf =inf There's the multiplication. Now, the division.... 1/inf = 0 2/inf = 0 ..... inf/inf = INDETERMINANT FORM Now, that's the life of infinity in our arithmetic. Let me link you to a site that describes this so that you don't just have to take my word for it. If you have indeed taken graduate level mathematics or indeed high school advanced math, then you would know these mathematical properties of infinity. Now its just a question of whether you will admit it. Let me demostrate why we can divide any real number by infinity... let's start with easy fractions that most every one is familiar with. 1/2 = 0.5 1/3= 0.33333.... 1/4 = 0.25 1/5 = 0.2 ... 1/100 = 0.01 ... 1/1000= 0.001 ... 1/10,000= 0.0001 Now, we can see that as the denominator get's larger the fraction actually get's smaller. Now, how small can the value of that fraction become....it will never reach zero as long as we use real numbers. But what if.... Let's imagine that the bottom of the fraction becomes larger than any number, that's infinity. 1/inf = 0. nuff' said. Btw, here's your link to the arithmatical properties of infinity. http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.divideby0.html If you scroll down the page you get to see all of the arithmatic properties of infinity. It looks like this.... infinity + r = r + infinity = infinity (-infinity) + r = r + (-infinity) = -infinity infinity + infinity = infinity (-infinity) + (-infinity) = -infinity infinity - r = infinity (-infinity) - r = -infinity r - infinity = -infinity r - (-infinity) = infinity infinity - (-infinity) = infinity (-infinity) - infinity = -infinity infinity * r = r * infinity = infinity for r > 0 (-infinity) * r = r * (-infinity) = -infinity for r > 0 infinity * r = r * infinity = -infinity for r < 0 (-infinity) * r = r * (-infinity) = infinity for r < 0 infinity * infinity = (-infinity) * (-infinity) = infinity infinity * (-infinity) = (-infinity) * infinity = -infinity infinity / r = infinity for r > 0 (-infinity) / r = -infinity for r > 0 infinity / r = -infinity for r < 0 (-infinity) / r = infinity for r < 0 r / infinity = 0 r / (-infinity) = 0 SA, I take no gloating over this. Even though you have reacted in quite a sarcastic, if not mean, way. I know that you will probably never admit on this thread that you are wrong about the value of 1/inf, but I know in your heart that you do know the truth. May God lead you to his peace. I will only glorify my God for having shown this truth to you and hope that he leads you to himself.

Calvin, I understand what you are saying...How can blaspheming the holy spirit cause one to lose their salvation if it isn't theirs to lose? I don't know the answer to that. I only know what Jesus says twice in the book of John. But, we do know that there is only one unforgivable sin. Right. So, perhaps that's where God draws his line in the sand for the believer's wanderings. After all, if there is only one unforgiveable sin, then that means all the others are forgiveable. What Paul says about the unforgiveable sin is that they are crucifying Christ again as they do this. Certainly God the Father draws the line there! Now let's look at a couple of groups of scripture that I believe are quite straight forward. I have included the text and made bold the points I want to highlight. John 6: 35Jesus replied,

Ahhh. Now we get to the quick of it. Measurement does not involve probability distribution until you get to quantum level and even then you have a determinant probability distribution. To be honest I don't even remember your setup of this problem so I'll speak to what I think you are talking about. Its all summed up in this. There can be infinitely many choices as long as there is a determinant probability distribution. If you say each infinite point has the same probability then we get to the indeterminant form and an indeterminant probability distribution.

Do you now see why its called the gambler's fallacy. If you say "well not infinity, but just a big number," then I can say why were the choices limited and we're back to God. You can't get around it. As soon as you say uniform distribution and infinite choices, then you reach the Gambler's fallacy, because 1/infinity = 0. Now, you could say infinite choices, but a non-uniform distribution, then we're back to reality. Now, what I'm showing you should be enough for you to say, well maybe there is something to this God thing. I hope that you see this. I did not undertake this as a match of intellects or knowledge, but as achance to show you that what you have been taught to prove that God doesn't exists simply proves his existence. As long as the scientist remains objective and is truly seeking the truth, then it will always lead to God.

You made this statement regarding 1/infinity. Wow! SA, I'm dissapointed in you bud. Check your precalc or Calculus book or for that matter most good algebra books. One divided by infinity is zero ! I wanted to write that out so there was no mistake about what my notation was. We can calculate division of a real number by infinity and we can calculate the multiplication of a real number and infinity. What becomes indeterminant is the division of infinity by infinity. I can try to find a link for you to a good math website if you'd like.

So, if we make bad decisions we can lose our salvation? How many bad decisions does it take? Does this not imply that you can retain your salvation by making good decisions? So, the individual plays a much larger role in their salvation than Jesus? Let's follow this thinking for a moment. We are saved by Jesus. All agree upon this. Now, after we are saved, keeping that salvation is dependent on imperfect humans. How many of us would truly be saved if it had to do with something we do or did? Jesus Christ is on the right hand of God the Father, yet his salvation for us is dependent on what we do to maintain it? I submit to you that the Son of the Most High God does no imperfect work. If we are saved by our Lord then we are saved! The good works or good decisions come as an effect of our salvation, not as a necessary part of salvation. Will we stumble? Yes. Will we make bad decisions? Yes. Then how many bad decisions does it take to undo the Work of Jesus Christ? There is one and only one way of losing your salvation. If you turn and defiantly blaspheme (sp?) against the holy spirit, that spirit that was in you as a seal and a down payment of your inheritance to come, then yes you will lose your salvation. Paul writes about this and in Acts the story of Ananias and Saphira show this point very well.

I believe that the Matt7 verse is indeed speaking of Christians who thought they had done every thing right...they had done all these good works...but their faith was in the good works and not in the blood of Jesus Christ. Now Roms 3:21-31... First let's back up a step a listen to Paul tell us about the law... 19Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to bring the entire world into judgment before God. 20For no one can ever be made right in God

Btw, what you are calling infinitesimal steps in integration are not actually infinitly many steps, but are actually used in terms of limit functions. Do you remember first year calculus? The limit as dp approaches zero, not when dp is zero. An extremely powerful differentiation, if you'll excuse the pun .

Hmmm. Infinitesimal probabilities. Let's take a little detour into the math, so that you can see that infinitesimal probabilities is wrong. If I have an infinite number of lottery balls, the you'll agree that the probability of me choosing any one ball is: p = 1/(number of balls) =1/infinity, now I know that you've seen the above number before (1/infinity). However for the sake of discussion let's not evaluate this expression Now, the area under the curve for this constant probability distribution is: A= int(-inf, +inf)pdp=may be directly calculated because of the constant probability as... A=sum(p)=infinity*p, because we have infinitely many probabilitys with probability p. Now lets substitue and do the arithematic. A=infinity*1/infinity ....oops that's a mathematical no no. infinity/infinity is what we call indeterminant. Of no use. Without information. Now, its very easy to see that if you have an infinite number of choices and a probability distribution that gives the same probability to each choice, then each possibility has zero probability, (remember, 1/infinity = 0). Now, if I choose to follow this path then I reach 0*infinity, which is the indeterminant form as I illustrated above. Care to have a look at that?

Bump.

Giving fruit does not require the death of a plant. God designed fruit to be eaten by animals and the seeds in the fruit would be transported by the animal to a new spot and then you have a new plant. There was no death before the fall of mankind. I believe there is a verse in Isaiah that says during the millenium that the lamb, child, and lion will walk/sleep/something together and the lions will eat straw. The first time that we here anything of animal death is when Abel offers the finest of his herd to God. All death is the result of man's fall by our father Adam. However, Jesus Christ is our new Adam and those that believe, adhere to and follow him are immortal because of His saving Grace. No longer are we descendants of Adam, but we are born again through and in Jesus Christ. All men are doomed to die a physical death once. However, when we are changed or resurrected at Jesus' return, our immortality is shown. We believe things which are not, as if they are. I'm so excited by this! I'm almost overcome in my anticipation. This is an appeal to those that do not believe. Why not just try Christianity? You believe in something of which you have no evidence now, so why not try believing Christianity. Go to a few churches and read the Bible some. Ask God for understanding. If God's not real, then you've lost a few hours on a couple Sundays and a few hours of reading a good book. Nothing more. If he is real then you will certainly have made the best decision of your life and you life will be transformed completely. Will all you problems go away? No. You'll likely have more problems as satan tries to get you to leave your new found faith. However, they Lord will be on your side and he will help you. Just try it. See what happens. If you've been in church before, try it one more time. I believe that churches are now leaving much of the religous traditions in the past and focusing on God's Word.

Please read my previous post which ties all of these responses together. So, you are saying an indeterminite, lets call it a pre-universe, was able to generate a state of the universe which has determinism. This seems quite odd. This is a fallacious argument. Indeed on the surface it would appear that, "Why yes, one must be picked". This argument is fallacious because you will never have anything infinite; no system exists, in our universe, that has infinite choices. Now, you could argue that before our universe came into being there were no bounds, no limits to any possibility. I believe this is your argument. This is fallacious. Why? 1.) You have no information about anything before our universe. I could argue that there was only one possibility and you could not prove me wrong. This is because, scientifically we have no information before our universe. 2.) This violates our current understanding of mathematics. An infinite and flat probability distribution results in each event being impossible, zero probability. Now, if you say that there were infinite choices, but there is a determinite probability distribution, then I will accept that as a possibility. This leaves your idea in the same scientific standing as any religion. However, we can examine history through archeology to see if the places and occurrences in the bible have left information in the dirt. However, there is no archeological information for before the big bang.

Its very difficult to talk about probabilities without speaking of probability distributions. If you have an infinite number of possibilities, there is no requirement that each have the same probability. Unless the integral taking the area under the curve of a probability distribution is finite and non-zero that distribution is indeterminite...void of information. So, you're argument, which is this "gambler's fallacy", holds no water because, by definition of the argument, the area under the curve is zero. Now, if you say that there is a probability distribution in a random universe, then you are saying that something other than chance is at work. If you say there are no preferred states then your argument is mathematically invalid and does not hold any water.

bump

God could have created the heavens and the earth in one day or instantly. So, why is there an emphasis on 6 days for creation and one day of of resting from creating? There is another verse in the bible that says that God is not bounded by time, it says that to God one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. Now is this a conversion factor? No. Its telling us that God is outside of time. He is not bound by time. Looking back on his creation men might say that this rock appears to be extremely old, billions of years. But that is only the case because we see processes bound by time. It takes a certain amount of time for water erosion to create a canyon. God could shape it instantly! And to us it would still look like it had taken millions of years. I think that there are many things men look at and try to understand that can only be understood by making God part of the equation. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So, if we want to understand something we must put God first and not limit him. There's a lot of junk science being done today because men don't take the Lord into account. Biologists represent a large portion of the junk science, but there are other disciplines like cosmology and geology that are guilty of leaving God out and creating junk science. The theory of evolution is being taught and adhered to as if it were a law instead of a theory. Men interpret data without open minds or with the aim of proving their theory rather than aiming to find the truth. We all know that God created the earth. We know he created all we see and things that we don't see. The key is not to turn our backs on science, but to watch what they do. When real science is done then we know that the data will prove God's existence, because his whole creation is His handiwork and the creation declares His Name and existence.

Hey, SA. I went to the website on carbon dating and found a link to a sight that had the name for the infinite choices idea of the random universe. It turns out that I was right to ask you for your evidence of infinite choices. It seems that your argument is called the "gamblers fallacy". I've done the copy and paste thing below for you. excerpted from Dr. Hugh Ross, www.reasons.org

I've had many of my prayers answered. Some of my prayers are yet to be answered. I know all of my prayers will be answered when our Lord Jesus returns. I guess my breakthrough will be when Jesus returns and yes, I pray for my breakthrough all the time.

Don't think of Genesis 1:1 as a step in creation. It is a topic sentence to the paragraph. The Bible is developed in Chapter and verse for easy reference. But the Bible is made up of books that have paragraphs, topic sentences, sentences, nouns, verbs, etc. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And this is how he did it...

Really? Then why were you saying that Occam's razor proves that God does not exist if you didn't know that there were other ways of distinguishing between the two "theories"? That was what you were saying a few pages back, wasn't it? Ok, that's fine. Now where is your proof that the universe had infinite choices for its "state". Btw, in believing this you are throwing away all the determinsim in Physics and everything we've learned about the universe so far. Physics says "if you give me a set of governing laws and initial conditions, then I will tell you each state of the universe after those initial conditions". Quantum mechanics says that there are zones of probability. Even an electron is bounded by a probability distribution. First, you are assuming that all of you father's sperm would be used for mating purposes. It turns out that only a tiny amount of sperm is used for mating as most are either absorbed and reconverted or happen to exit the body through masturbation. Second, I think at any point in time there are around 10^5 sperm available. Out of these, a fairly large percentage are misshapen and misformed. This means that a baby is born as 1/10^-6 at most for any given generation. Now according to my calculations I get 1/10^-18. Which means that we are quite the miracles, but not quite impossible for three generations. However, if we follow your logic back 10 generations, then it does seem that we are quite the miracles. This also means that every living thing is a miracle, because the chances of your dog, Joy, being born from his wolf ancestors. Wait a second, perhaps some outside forces were at work that favored your dog being born. Perhaps there was some breeding that took place to get just the right stock. Does this happen with humans? Sure. People are attracted to certain individuals and not to others. How do these factors play into the probability of your birth? Was your father attracted to brunettes instead of blonds? Was your mother looking for an athelete or an artist. So is the probability of your birth simply related to how many generations back we consider? Or, is your logic somehow flawed? Is this what I was talking about when I said The answer is no. When I said low probability events being multiplied I was talking about being multiplied in the Occam's razor equation. You see, I was talking about events that were not interdependent from a generational aspect. ******************************************************************************** ******************************************************* However, let's look at the possibility of getting to where we are today. Let's forget just looking at the generational aspect of humans and animals, let's go from the big bang to now with cascading probabilities. Let's start with the big bang. It was a uniform spherical explosion. Why spherical? Why uniform? Was free energy minimization necessary. Ok, let's say not uniform or spherical. Why? What caused it to be non-uniform? Let's go with spherical and uniform given that we have a bit of empirical evidence that says the cosmic background radiation is uniform. OK, the big bang was uniform and spherical. Why? Where did the governing laws of the universe come from that "told" the big bang to be uniform? Was the big bang subject to a set of governing laws? If the answers yes, then the big bang is not the first cause. If the answer is no, then your theory may still be right. So, for the sake of argument we'll say that the big bang was uniform by accident. What were the possible shapes? Did it also have infinitely many choices for its shape? If yes, then the probability of it being spherical was zero. The big bang was a miracle! After all, any number divided by infinity is zero. If no, then why did it have a set of possible shapes? OOps, were back to governing laws and therefore, it can't be the first cause if there were laws that existed that governed what shape the big bang could have. Is there need to go any farther? I will continue to multiply any probability you want by zero, but well that means that the big bang was a miracle:An occurrance with little or no chance of occurring. And we know who's in the miracle business! I've told you that I'm not assuming that DNA is important. I'm just saying, look it exists. So, knowing that it exists, and postulating that our universe is random, what is the probability of DNA existing out of all these wild and wonderful, infinite possibilities. Let's not say infinite choices cause you know where that leads... However, I was estimating the probability of DNA occurring by examining the possibility that the information storage and transfer mechansim occurred randomly. Sorta like the chimp typing the britannica.

Gen 1:1 God created Gen 1:2 I think when Moses wrote waters here he was trying to explain space in a way that he could understand. Waters of the deep = The blackness of space. Gen 1:3-5 God created the stars and what we call light. The stream of photons in an electromagnetic wave. He created the darkness the absence of the electromagnetic wave. You must have light before you can have the absence of it. Gen 1:6-8 This kinda defines what God called waters in verse 2. The blackness of space that has some "ether" or other thing that we can't discern within it. Gen 1:14-19 God created the moon and the sun. This is just how I have always thought about it. That doesn't mean its right, but it does offer an explanation. God doesn't tell us all the secrets of the pghysical world within the Bible, but he does provide us with what we need spiritually. I look forward to knowing the mysteries of the physical world. After all, its God's creation and is beautiful. I don't think that God is bound by time, so whether he made the universe in 7 days or within 15 billion years it doesn't really matter. With God, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. I don't think this is a conversion factor as much as it is a way of saying that God is not bound by time. It may appear to us like the universe is billions of years old. God IS. He says that His name is, "I Am". That means he lives in what we call the present tense. He always was and is, and will always be. He created time for us, it is fundamental to His physical universe. Probably more than you asked for, but.....

I don't think Old Timer called you a fool, but it is God who called you a fool. These writings are the inspired word of God.

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine anything more absurd than the argument you are making. The reasons: 1.) Occam's razor, by definition must use "unconditional" probability. Although I like how you did indeed write a long post and try to evade this very fact. We are still talking about the probabilities used in Occam's razor aren't we? Or, are you conceding the fact that Occam's razor does not disprove God, but proves his existence and that you must move on to this other argument to explain the universe? 2.) One HUGE assumption, on your part, is that there are or were infinitely many universes generated in the big bang or whatever. Man, you can't go on making assumptions that aren't empirically based and expect me to consider your "arguments" anywhere near scientific. 3.) This is indeed a thought that most people have, but it is indeed false. There is a mathematical zero level at 10^-50. That means zero! Nadda, nuthin, zilch. And not only are we discussing single events that make what we see possible, but each and every extremely low probability must be multiplied to get the resulting life we see. So you get something like 10^-50 * 10^-50*...and so on. I'm in no way conceding that there are infinitely many universes and we live in one of them. That is one of those arguments...aahh..what do you call them...can't be proven, but can't be disproven...you get the picture. Btw, if there are infinitely many universes, then there are infinitely many with life in them. You see infinity is a kind of funny thing. No matter what you multiply it by you still get infinity. So, when you say infinitly many,universes then each universe would be exactly the same and would have everything possible in it and that means that in a group or whatever you would call it, of infinitely many universes then nothing would be impossible. Everyone would always be winners of the lottery, everyone would continually be struck by lightning, everything would...well you get the picture. 4.) How have you indeed proven me wrong? No it has no special importance to me..Its just necessary for life, that's all. Now, as I have reiterated often, DNA is only one of the extremely low probability (if it was generated by random) occurrences that cause the idea of a random universe to crumble. No I don't calculate P(Random Universe given than DNA must be in the random universe), but I do calculate P(DNA in a random universe). Do you see the difference. I haven't said that DNA would exist in a ramdom universe. I have completely said the opposite, that it wouldn't exist in a random universe. Therefore because DNA exists in our universe, our universe can't be random. 5.) I'm still wrong? You have not proven anything, other than the fact that Occam's razor only proves God's existence, not disproves it. Every random universe...hmm. On what knowledge do you base your belief in infinitely many random universes? There's no empirical data, these's certainly no lofty logic of man that says because of XYZ then we must have infinitely many universes...in our....uhhh...something. Your running in circles SA. I don't know who is feeding you this garbage or where your getting it, but its garbage. It wouldn't last a second under scientific scrutiny by anyone. Your saying that your theory is true, therefore its true. There's no deductive reasoning, there's no math, no science. I'm at the point of laughing, but at the same time, your resistance to sticking on topic, your in ability to say, "I was wrong." astounds me. Why are you so resistant to the truth. You would rather delude yourself that there's nothing out there rather than investigate (truthfully) whether God does exist and what God can do for you. In summary...And please don't copy and paste stuff from Atheists R US sites for a reply, but consider each of my points this time 1) Occam's razor requires the use of unconditional probabilities. Why? Because we are trying to distinguish two theories about OUR universe, not some abstract garbage about infinitely many universes. 2) Because the probabilities are different between a created and a random universe, you can not cancel probabilities between each OR equation. In addition, the probabilities for all the uncharacterized processes are so minute for a random universe, when multiplied they bring the product to zero for a random universe. 3) Infinite random universes is one of those unprovable ideas. If I told you there was a planet that was made of chocolate and had faries dancing around on it and then I stated that it was so far away that we can't reach it by space ship and that it has an atmosphere that absorbs and emits just like open space. I couldn't prove to you it exists, but you couldn't prove me wrong either. And that at one time at band camp, I visited that planet and ..well, you get the picture, right? If your beliefs require you to believe in infinitely many universes, then why don't you just believe in God and live a much happier life. You think there's no proof of God and there's certainly no proof of infinitely many universes. So, you could just believe the one that at least would make you happy in this life. Ohhh, I almost forgot, to be true to God you would have to try to stop sinning and would have to try to go to church and try to treat people like you would want to be treated. I was being a little mean in the above statements, but God offers so much more than what people who do not know him think. Why not consider Jesus? He died for your sins if you believe, trust, and adhere to him. He gave us two commandments: Love God above everything else and love our neighbors as we love ourselves. That's not really a burden. It frees you from so much of the pain and sorrow that this world has to offer. All you have to do is choose Jesus and repent of your sins. Repent is just a fancy way of saying that your sorry for the way you have lived and that you want to change.

I believe that "thithing" is of the law. Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils out of deference to him, not out of commandment. Did Moses tithe of his flock when he was living in exile from Eqypt? Now, we all know of the three tithes that are commanded in the Old Covenant. Jesus said that He was not here to destroy the law but to amplify it (paraphrased). He gave examples from the Ten Comandments showing that outward "works" were not enough and that we must guard our hearts and minds as well. So, Jesus came to amplify the law to a spiritual level. Thithing became giving freely and with joy to God. It was no longer enough to meet the letter of the law (as the pharisees did, grudgingly), but to give with love for God (as the widow did). You see when we give to the poor we are giving to God. Of course, God gave us what we have, so I mean giving to God in the sense of how we see it.