halifaxchristian

Exactly...there is no fellowship with Christ when we walk in the flesh...but do we lose our sonship??? No...the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleases us from all sin. And if anyone on this board says that they don't have sin...they lie. Good thing we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. "Whosoever is BORN OF GOD doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."-1 John 3:9

I want everyone on this board to know this: Catholics ADMITTEDLY, both by individuals on this board, and by official CHURCH CANONS AND COUNCILS, believe that salvation DOES NOT come from FAITH ONLY IN CHRIST JESUS...BUT that WORKS has a part in our own SALVATION. This is a fact that the other side does not even deny...and, thus, my point in starting this thread in the first place. I wish to fully PORTRAY and BRING TO LIGHT this IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS. Catholics can believe what they wish...God gave us all freewill. But there is no longer any point in any of us on this board arguing the essential relationship between Catholics and Protestants if we can all agree on this matter. If we can agree on this matter, as stated...the end result is...THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT CONTINUE...and it is a deception to believe that it can and should. Agreed, stray bullet??? If so...I will not even bother debating over other differences between the two faiths...because this matter alone is enough to dispell any other harmonies we may share. And that...is the whole point. Understood?

Fiosh...I am sorry...yet again. I love you like a sister and the more I get to know you it just gets better. I did resort to taking a low-blow there and I have to start learning to use better judgement. Hope all is well between us now. God bless you!!!

Kansas Dad...I understand your concerns, I really do...and if I did purposefully leave out a word...yes, that would have been deceitful...but God as my faithful witness...and may He strick me dead right now if I lie...I DID NOT PURPOSEFULLY LEAVE OUT ANYTHING. I made an honest copyist mistake and I do apoligise for that...but I can assure you from the depths of my soul that it was not intentional...and God knows I lie not. From there...you can make an honest judement of my character.

The way I read these two canons, they are basically stating that Christ's death alone is not sufficient for God's justification, and that faith alone is not sufficient for the believers to have the surity of their salvation. This will turn out to be a faith vs. works argument, I can just smell it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Rather, faith vs. works vs. faith + works. The idea of faith and works isn't anything new or dramatic. So what that the Catholic Church doesn't teach Sola Fida..That's nothing new, so yeah... I'm not getting this topic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is my whole point in posting those canons...the RCC does teach that works has a part in our salvation...thankyou for clarifying. Shall we proceed from here??? That was my point from the get-go. Sorry if you misunderstood my intentions in the first place.

I want to join in these debates...truly I do...but there is honestly too much going on at once and I don't even know where to start. Can someone start separate posts for separate topics??? Honestly, things are much easier that way.

Rukkus...the Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ was God. God cannot die. God is One. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus Christ shed His Blood for our sins, died on a tree, crucified on a cross, and was quickened by the Spirit. We are clearly told that Jesus Christ died physically and I challenge you to show from the Word where Jesus took on death to His Spirit. That is what is at hand...very simple. Just to be totally clear on the matter: SHOW A VERSE THAT SAYS JESUS DIED, NOT JUST PHYSICALLY ON THE CROSS, BUT IN HIS SPIRIT. "Jesus...said unto them, Destroy this TEMPLE, and in three days I will raise it up...He spake of the temple of His BODY."-John 2:21 "...The Blood of Christ, through the ETERNAL SPIRIT (Eternal Spirit cannot die), offered Himself without spot to God..."-Hebrews 9:14 [if Jesus took on sin in His Spirit, as you say, then certainly He would not have been "without spot"] "...Christ...being put to death in the FLESH, but QUICKENED by the Spirit."-1 Peter 3:18 "...It pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He hath put Him to grief: when Thou shalt make His soul and OFFERING for sin."-Isaiah 53:10 [Jesus soul isn't made "sin", it is made an "offering" FOR SIN. Big difference.] God bless.

Well, you didn't get the quote right and twisted it to say something it doesn't out of context: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema." Well, secondly, that's off too: It is Canon 24 and says: "If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema." Now that we have what was actually said and the actual number of the Canon, could you tell me what you find wrong in these statements? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are you kidding? It makes absolutely no difference at all...please elaborate. I don't see how your word changes change the essential meaning whatsoever...and I would love to see your houdini trick here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> halifax, Stray Bullet corrected your post and asked a simple question which you did not answer. while I am not an RCC member, it seems to me that Strays question deserves an answer. If you are trying to point out thier error, here is your chance for one who appears to be of the group you are addressing has ask very directly what is wrong with their beliefs........ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How do those word changes change the meaning??? If it does...let me know. I have re-read it several times in the given context and do not see the "light" that stray bullet is trying to shed on the matter. Honestly. Do you see a difference??? If so, let me know.

Fiosh...are you kidding??? The Pope MOST DEFINITELY KNEW ABOUT THE SELLING OF INDULGENCES!!!!!!!! And if your church is infallible on matters of doctrine...doesn't this include the Bishops??? Why would Christ's spotless Church be needing of reform, as you say??? And by the way...it wasn't luther who left Catholicism...he wanted to reform it...it was Catholicism that left him. That is a fact. And yes, Luther changed doctrines and beliefs, because the Church needed reform...as you admit. How will you escape this trap of contradiction??? And Luther didn't change what Jesus taught...he re-inforced it according to his conscience...something more Catholics should start to do. Take out that computer chip of ignorance, and be blessed in seeking.

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry to upset you. I dont pretend to know what you do and dont do, but if your a Catholic, thats what they do. And dont tell me they dont. I was lugged around to Catholic churches from a young age and i know the drill, which consists of praying to Mary with much praise. So if you dont, good on you for not following this wrong tradition. So... still waiting for scripture... if you dont have any just say so and i will rest my case and stick with my views of praying to or through Mary as wrong and unbiblical. Please dont dodge the request. Thanks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bluebird...good post...like I have said before...Catholics worship Mary...if Fiosh doesn't worship mary...that makes her a Christian...deceived into fellowshipping in a Catholic Church. We are not trying to tell fiosh where her heart is...we are trying to tell fiosh where catholic hearts are...according to Church teaching.

I am not saying that God's Word is void, neither do I wish to convey that messge in any way..and if I have...I apoligise. But remember that Satan quoted the Bible to Jesus also...and He gave him the Word back in Truth. I was merely asking how the verses you showed were relevant to the issue at hand...??? I didn't see how they were. If I am wrong...let me know...but if not...then why do you lash out at me??? Sorry if I am coming across as unloving...in actuality, I am trying to show Catholics love by revealing to them the errors of their Church's teachings in light of the Word of God. Have a good day at work...and don't let me ruin it...I'm not worth it!!!!

Hey Pilgrim...just want to let you and everyone else here know that I do not base my belief in OSAS on John 3:16 alone...and that would be an exaggeration to suggest so. Pilgrim, I like the verses you quoted above and may that be all of our goals and prayers on this board. I also do not want to see lukewarm Christians in the body of Christ...but I'd rather see a lukewarm Christian whom God purges by chastisement than a "strong" Christian with the wrong motivations. Serving Christ merely to keep salvation is completely wrong...we must serve Him because He first served us...so to speak. To me, OSAS gives purpose for believers to serve Jesus from the heart with love and devotion and sincerity...Conditional Salvation gives purpose for believers to serve Jesus out of self-interest and necessity. There is a world of difference, and let's continue to pray over the matter. God bless.

Fiosh...what do those verses have to do with the stated above? Please answer those Canons directly, without dancing around the issue. Honestly. Face up.

Well, you didn't get the quote right and twisted it to say something it doesn't out of context: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema." Well, secondly, that's off too: It is Canon 24 and says: "If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema." Now that we have what was actually said and the actual number of the Canon, could you tell me what you find wrong in these statements? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are you kidding? It makes absolutely no difference at all...please elaborate. I don't see how your word changes change the essential meaning whatsoever...and I would love to see your houdini trick here.

Stray bullet...you are bullet on a mission alright...but you definitely are not stray...you knew exactly what you were getting into the minute you signed up. Am I wrong??? Reveal my stupidity if that is what it is...but own up if that is what you are. Do the right thing.

Good posts gypc!!!!!

Stray bullet...may I be totally honest with you??? Permit me so... I believe that you are a Jesuit...and for good reason. If this is an "insult" to you...then maybe you should give up that order. Just a thought. I see that you come on this board and within one day are trying to establish and uphold doctrines that many of us at Worthy have proven un-Scriptural in past threads. I would answer each of you points one-by-one if I perceived that you were merely ingorant of Catholic devices and were an honest seeker...as I perceive Fiosh is, to a certain extent. I do not pride myself in having special abilities or gifts above anyone else here...but I do consider myself to have the gift of common sense...which God gave unto all men. If you are sincere about finding the truth, or defending it with sincere integrity...and are not simply on a mission to thwart true Protestantism in these last days...I will engage most happily with you. But let's do this the right way...start a new post for every topic you wish to handle...and we will do this one by one in an orderly fashion. It is most confusing to everyone on this board, and certainly not edifying, if we jump around from issue to issue without clearly establishing a base or foundation of clarity first. I will deal with each and every point you bring up...one at a time, if you so choose. I hesitate in debating with you in the present form because I do not believe in my heart that you have the right motivations in the labours you are taking on. I have reason to believe that you are a Jesuit, sent to defend the faith of your fathers, and are not open to honest, and intellectual conversation. I hope that you will prove me wrong. Please understand my purposes here...we have dealt most extensively with many of the points you bring up. You jump onto this board in one day as if you can shake the foundations of Protestantism in a handful of posts...and that just does not fly around here. If you wish to converge with Messianic Jews...do so in a respectful and orderly way...with an open mind to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit's leading. There are many Messianic Jews on this board who are both godly and knowledgeable in the faith...and I do not appreciate your ignorance in so dealing with them. God bless.

I don't believe that Jesus would lead people to worship according to the Roman Catholic Church doctrine. That is why I left...and that is what I believe. Are there some true Christians deceived into fellowshipping in the RCC??? Certainly yes (read my signature quote). But these Christians are not "Catholic" by definition. A "Catholic" by definition does not have a saving faith in Jesus Christ...in fact...a true Catholic would call assured salvation heresy. Fiosh has still not responded to my PM requests to her regarding the Catholic stance on salvation. I too would like to hear what they shoot back. God bless. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi HC, I only got home from work a little while ago and have been catching up on what I missed here. I have not gotten your PM re: salvation. Wish I had HOURS each day to devote to WB, I truly do love the exchanges we have here. And there are so many interesting topics going at the present time. Alas............. But, I'm soon off for a walk/run to try to keep this old body in working condition. Plus I have some paperwork to finish. I'll get to your PM as soon as I receive it. Peace, Fiosh PS> Don't say anything too atrocious about the RCC while I'm gone. ;-) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Like steve urkel said...Would I do that??? (Okay, I changed "did" to "would"...same dif...) I'll re-send that PM. Anyway, I too must take a break from here. I love it...but I'm afraid I'm not giving due diligence to other aspects of the Christian walk...and, oh yeah...I have to eat too!!! See you later fiosh...my nemesis!!!!ahaha

"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANETHMA."-Council of Trent, Canon 12 "If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the increase, LET HIM BE ANETHMA."-Council of Trent, Canon 33

Well...I read the KJV...but the answer is no. Christians believe in Jesus Christ in their spirits...unfortunately the flesh is weak, and sometimes believers walk in the flesh. But God purges them...and abides faithful even when we are not.

Experiential events... OR Biblical faith... We must all choose.

An evil generation seeketh after a sign. "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the DRAGON WHICH GAVE POWER unto the beast."-Revelation 13:3,4

There is no doubt that Luther was not insane...the man was highly educated, intelligent, and full of clarity in his writings. Does he admit that many of his writings are confused and contradictory? Yes. Verily he confesses his ever-changing beliefs and growth processes. The Catholic Church has a rule of thumb: If you can't beat the belief...beat the person. That is what they have done with people like Jack Chick, Charles Chinquay, Clark Butterfield, Alberto Rivera, Dave Hunt, Sidney Hunter, among others. Go start up a Protestant church in south america and see what happens. Brother Lius, in Toronto, has a story for any of you willing to listen. And is he lying? The Spirit flows from this man like butter. Martin Luther, by no far stretch of the imagination, was perfect in his ways or theology...but, by goodness, he sure took strides in the right direction. And God blessed his path...which led right out of Rome. Remember...that ML, at first, trusted the Pope to support him fully...even when he posted the Thesis on the door of the university. The Catholic Church is the one who turned on him first...truth be told.