William Putnam

I can only answer with another question: What "idolatry"? If I worship the Blessed Virgin Mary as a goddess, you would have a point, but I do not. She is a creature of God, but a most higly favored one by God. As for "praying to John Paul II," I do that as well with my own deceased mother, since I believe she is in heaven, therefore she can pray for me (or usher my prayers to God) from her position in heaven! Pope St. John Paul II, The Great, pray for us! God bless, PAX Bill+

If the rhetoric gets bad enough, I would not blame you. But please allow me to restond to this thread this one time at least and defend my Catholic faith that is so maligned here! God bless, PAX Bill+

I will not attempt to respond to the "spray gun" technique of spewing out with all the anti-Catholic rethoric, but I will respond to the idea that the "Catholic Church" is not in scriptures. Please tell me what "church" it is in Matthew 16:18-19 that is built upon the ROCK of Peter, who is given ethe "keys of the kingdom" of authority, and then later amplified with the power to "bind and loose." And yet again, the authority of the church mentioned in Matthew 18:1-18, later Paul speaks to Timothy that the church is the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, was present at it's "activation" Pentecost, having been set on it mission in Matthew 28:19-20? Consider if that same "church" was around 10 years later. Or how about 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 years later, and in circa A. D. 110. a guy named St. Ignatius of Antioch coined the phrase "catholic" (universal) as an additional handle for the church, since by that time, the Church had pretty well spread the gospel to the then known world. And dthen retrograde back to Matthew 16:18 and note that Christ says that "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" and wonder to yourself, how can I find the true Church of Christ that goes back to Christ Himself? And with the promise of Christ who promised that the "gates of hell shall not pravail against it," that He would "be with then to the end of the age," that that Paul considers the Church the "Poillar and Foundation of Truth," then suddenly, for the first 1500 years of her history, she has wallowed in serious error in contradiction of the scripture I just quoted? First of all, most of them were Christians, of the Orthodox faith and other Eastern/Oriental Rites of the Church (The Orthodox, bless their hearts, attended even while they were not "in union with the Holy See.) As for the Moslems, the Hindus and others there, did not Christ die for them as well? Did not John Paul II show the kindness of Christ that for all you will know, will bring them to the true Christian faith? You know, I wondered about all that too, and I then said to myself, let me find the true Church Christ founded. I did look, and I found her... THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH Founder: Jesus Christ about AD 33 Present earthly caretaker: Presently vacant, most recently John Paul II of blessed memory. Eternal rest grant to him, oh Lord, May eternal light shine down upon him, may he rest in peace, AMEN God bless, PAX Bill+

Thank you for your testimony, not knowing for sure to whom this is addressed, but I feel my presence here brought it on, which is fine. And by now, you could rightly presume that I totally and completely disagree with you here, having discussed the many, many points you have raised against the Catholic Church. I will not attempt to address them all, but simply wait until they are individually addressed in other threads as they may come about. For my testimony, click on my handle above to go to my profile, and then click on my web site URL. From there, go to the Catholic apologetics section, and click on "My Story." All are invited to explore all the contents of my site. God bless, PAX Bill+

WhySoBlind replied, where I last said (given in green):: Yet the very Church Christ established survived! And she continues to be the only Church who can trace her doctrines and beliefs to Christ Himself! Can your church do that? For which I do not see a reply...............so far. You last said (in red): God doesn't just "magically" protect the church from error. He uses GOD CALLED AND APPOINTED ministers who are led by the Word of God, not those elected by "popular vote", to direct the church. And I replied: Within about two weeks, we will have an "appointed minister" elected to the chair of Peter, which is not "magic" by any means, but we do believe that the holy Spirit will prevail in choosing the man who would succeed John Paul II. To which you replied: What is THE CHURCH, sir? Believe it or not, the "Roman Catholic Church" is, not exclusive to herself, that original Church of Christ! You see, that Church, the Church of Rome, is of the Latin/Roman/Western Rite, a subset if you will, of the whole church. Other Rites include the Greek/Bizantine Rites, Chaldean Rites, and other Rites that are "in union with the Holy See" which happened to be headquartered in Rome! But somehow, I get the feeling that I need not go too much into details here as I get the feeling it is just going to "roll off your back," right, WhySoBlind? And also, why do I get that funny feeling that your handle is so appropriate? Rome has spoken, case is closed. My my, you are so excited! Calm down, sir, as this is only my third post in this forum! Did I get your dander-up that quickly? If you look reeeeeeeeal carefully now, you will see that the quote from my last post is a "tagline" (or a "sigline") that comes after my signature line, and many tines, it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. But I do suggest you read the text of the original letter written by St. Augustine, noting that what is quoted is a contraction/paraphrase of what he actually wrote. In that letter, you will learn how the Church, from Rome, dealt with a prevailing heresy Augustine has been fighting for several years at the time. A nice claim that I would insist upon you documentating, if you can. I have rapidly come to the opinion that you are incapable of doing such a thing, sorry. Claims, without doumentation, mean nothing, sir. But I do note the usually "firehose" attempt to rant against many of the doctrines you reject. Please know that I am more then willing to address them for you, but not here. So, please start a new thread on, say, the Eucharist or infant baptism, or any ONE topic at a time. God bless, PAX Bill+

I do not believe that Catholic beliefs are wrong for two reasons: 1. Catholicism is the only Christian community (with my Orthodox brothers making the same claim, God bless 'em) who can trace their history back to Christ Himself. A good study of Church history demonstrates this to the very edge of the apostolic era. 2. If this is so, then consider the words of Christ in Matther 16:18..."...And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (church). This means that Christ will protect His church from error. And this existed this way for the first 1500 years of Christianity, (except the unfortunate Orthodox schism circa A. D. 1051) to the 15th century. But if the Church fell into error, when did it do so, and did it wallow in this error for all this time? Where is the holy Spirit in protecting Christ's Church? God bless, PAX Bill+