IronyLaughsatReason

dakota, so everytime a married man and a married woman enter into a sexual relationship and concieve a child, the parents are not pure, and the children therefore are not pure... that seems a little idiotic(without the exclamtion points). so one of the sins that make us not pure in the eyes of god, is procreation of the earth... that seems a little idiotic(without the exclamation points). i cannot speak for why Jesus would have possibly wed, or why Jesus would have possibly done anything he did during the time he lived on the earth... I'm not Jesus. god forgives me when i fail as well, your not in some excluive club just because you wear the name tag: christian. god is all loving. god is all forgiving. hgpal, in 1962 a movie called "the man who shot liberty valance" came to theaters. it has one of the great all time lines "when the legend becomes fact, print the legend"

Dakota, I know the points of the faith, I was raised in a Christian home, attended church, and went to bible class. And like I said, I do not support to book as true, nor as false... I don't know. If Jesus secretly wed Mary Magdelene or any other woman, and then had a child... he is still without sin. He entered into holy matrimony. Inerrant means infallible, and containg no errors. Neither Jesus nor god wrote the bible. Yes, the bible is the word of god... interpretted by man... written by man... and man is by all means fallible. The bible is not a dictation of the words Jesus spoke, the scriptures in the bible are all ACCORDING to the accounts people witnessed and in turn through the spoken word of mouth was kept alive... until it was recorded. I agree, the bible has not been discredited yet, and i also agree that the chances of it ever being discredited are slim to none. But just because something is not proven as wrong, doesn't make it proven as fact. Just because you can't prove that I cheated on my math test, doesn't mean that I didn't, it just means you can't prove that I did cheat. You can't prove faith right or wrong... it's faith... and the Christian faith comes from the texts of the bible, which can be proven neither right nor wrong, until the end of our time here on earth, or the end of earth all together.

As Christians, to totally dismiss the "Da Vinci Code" as being absolutely false, is the much the same as the Jews who denied Jesus' claims of being the Savior. The Da Vinci Code" makes fanatical claims, just as Jesus' made fanaticl claims, and now you as Christians are in the opposite shoes, trying to crush something new, and hold onto the old. Your counterclaim is ineviablely going to be... well the book is fiction and the bible is fact. Something is only as fictional or as factual as you make it, unless you witnessed it with your own eyes. It is hypocritical and shows a lack of open mindedness, just like the Jews showed during the times of Jesus. I don't believe everything I read, but I certainly don't have the audacity to completly deny it... because I really don't know. To not support the book or the movie is one thing, but to try and crush it outright is another... The people who didn't belive in Jesus is one thing, but the ones who went as far as to have the man crucified is another... and history seems to constantly repeat itself. Does it really matter if Jesus had a child with Mary Magdelene, does it make him any less the Savior, does it mean his miracles are no longer miraculous? The book doesn't tarnish the name of Jesus in my mind, it does tarnish the church somewhat, but your faith deals with the belief in Jesus... not what the church has done in the years since the death of Jesus.

Artsylady-- Q What do you think of Christianity ? Did you consider becoming a Christian ? A My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion. In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being. The missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so. Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth. THESE ARE THE WORDS FROM GANDHI IN AN INTERVIEW THIS WAS A QUESTION ASKED TO HIM HE LIVED IN INDIA IN 1889 I HOPE THIS IS FINALLY CLEAR All other words were mine. I agree that there are numerous differences between the lives of Socrates and Jesus. But i cant believe i actually left off their greatest simiarity--they were both put to death for what they believed and spoke of, because what they believed and spoke of was contrary to the beliefs that were intact during their lifetimes. You say the Christian Bible lived long after Plato. Go to a library and you can find both. Read the works and you will realize that the ideals in the books live on in parts of society, just as Christianity lives on in parts of society. Yes it would have been hard for him to arrange his birth in Bethlemhem, but it would have been easy to use that to his advantage afterward. Jesus could have been a great speaker and tell lies. Hitler did and look how many people he got to follow. I have no idea if Jesus was telling the truth or if he was telling lies. It is impossible for me to know. I am open to the fact that every part of the bible is 100% true, I am open to the fact that it is 75% true, but i am also open the the fact that it could be 0% true. You say Jesus healed and performed miracles and healings. Then why did his own followers, his closest friends not believe. Judas turned him in, Peter denied him three times, and Thomas wouldnt believe until Jesus showed himself to him. Sure they all came around in the end, but even they questioned and they walked with the man. The miraclce could not of been that convincing. The words he spoke on the other hand were proabaly quite convincing. I think he would like to take back all of the them if he saw the people started wars over his words and teachings. The gospel writers may have chose death, for the same reason a Japanese fighter pilot kamakazeed. Loyalty. If i named someone who publically denounced Jesus, you will tear the person the shreds. I'm not gonna fall for that. I named Gandhi because he was not a Christian, yet he knew all about Christianity. He knew all about the stories of Jesus, and yet he was content being Hindu. He knew what the bible said about not accepting Christ as the savior and knew the consequence of not accepting, yet he remained a Hindu and a great and honorable man. He did not die Christian and he was shown all that Christianity had to offer. So does he rot in hell. No he did not openly denounce Christ, but he openly did not accept him as his savior. The entity did not create the different religions, people trying to find the entity did. Off the subject, i would appreciate it immensely if you could tell me how to put the quotes of other people into my writings. Probably a very dumb question, but i am not computer savy and i just cant figure it out.

Firstly--you are the one who asked me the question. And secondly, you totally misunderstood my post. Everything above FROM THE MOUTH OF GANDHI, was actually from the mouth of Gandhi. Those are the words he spoke, not me. You say Socrates was just a great writer, but he actually never wrote a single thing. All we know about Socrates is told through Plato, And no one knows where Socrates left off and Plato began. Socrates was a great speaker and almost all of what is known of him was written after his death. I believe Jesus was a great speaker. He also never wrote a single thing. So no one knows where he left off and the mind of the gospel writers begin. Jesus was a great speaker and almost all that was known of him was written after his death. As for the bible being older than the texts of Plato. I disagree. Christianity goes by the teachings of Christ found in the New Testament. Plato lived in B.C. Yes the old testament was there, but Christianity is founded on the new testament. But now back to Ghandi. He was no Christian, read his philosophies and you will know that. But he knew a great man when he read about one. As do i. I am not Christian, but i get as much out of the words as Jesus as you do. I believe Jesus was a master of propaganda. Much the same way Hitler was able to get people to believe and use it for hate, Jesus got people to belive and used it for love. He knew how to get peoples attention. He knew of the stories of the messiah. He knew he could use this to his advantage and spread the word. He knew the world needed change and he knew the best way to go about doing it. If you minus all the rhetoric about being the son of god, he is the greatest philopher and humanitarian of all time. He was a genius, but i believe that he would be disgraced with what became of his words in the following millenia. Disgraced to the point that if he had the option of taking them back he would cause they backfired. The words of Jesus seperate people more than they bring them together in todays world and that is such a pity. And why do they seperate? Because people are too caught up in the god part of the bible and not the morals and values part. I believe the very essence that made him able to reach so many people with his words is the what causes so many of the problems in today's world. The essence of god. I am not out to prove Christians wrong. First of all I cant. You can disprove something that is based on faith. And second of all, I dont want to. I think faith is a good thing. But i am a firm believer that one's faith is no better than another's faith. It is the belief that something else is out there that has brought us as far as we have and it is that belief that is bringing mankind farther apart every waking second of the day, for all want to be right and all believe that they are right. I believe that something created us, and that something wants us to live as one. Not as Buddahists, Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Not as Americans, Mexicans, Asians, and Russians. But as one. Like John Lennon said "Imagine".

Artsylady, Q What do you think of Christianity ? Did you consider becoming a Christian ? A My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion. In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being. The missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so. Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth. WORDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GANDHI He didn't openly denounce Christ, he was actually an admirer of Christ. Of the three pictures that hung in his room, one was of Jesus Christ. But he did not die Christian. You misinterpreted what i was saying. I do not denounce Jesus Christ. I have the utmost respect for him. I denounce Christians who twist the words. I denounce Christians who enjoy telling people that they are better because they are Christian. I denonce Christians who enjoy telling people that they are going to hell because they are not Christian. There are countless other figures who may not of denounced Christ, but openly questioned him, and contemplated whether the reality of him being the son of god was true. People who were actually Christian themselves. Shakspeare for example. We could name great thinkers that came before Christ. No they did not openly denounce him for the obvious, but they did not die Christian. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle to name a few. You should read some of the writings that came before the bible. They are filled with just as much wisdom as the bible. The life of Socrates actually slightly mirrors that of Jesus. Both were persecuted because they spoke out against what was the common belief at that time. I think you were trying to bait me into naming Nietcheze, who you could easily tear down, but i dare you to tear down Gandhi.(Eventhough i think Nietcheze was a great man) My prior post may have seemed harsh, but i was merely going for shock value.

I would not say god is a tyrant. I say more along the lines of a fumbling leader. A being that got in way over its head and has been sinking ever since. Not only is it sinking, but its desperate. Actually lets substitute desperate for egotistical. Actually lets not. Lets say that his desperation led to his ego. It is a proud ego that stems from desperation. It is masked by desperation. Christians call it forgiveness, but it is desperation. Why else could you rape, murder, plunder, and persecute and still be on the open ballot for heaven. No it is not forgiveness, it is desperation. The last ditch effort to salvage what is left of the poor pitiful world that it created. It knows it screwed up and it is trying to mask its PRIDE. It says you can live for ninety years and sin all day, every day as long as you wear that Christian body armor and say I'm sorry. As long as you fill my ego by telling me that i am all knowing and merciful and wonderful and magnificent, I will let you in. Sin all you want, just go to church on Sunday and say lord your are great, and I will let you in. BUT IF YOU ARE HONEST, CARING, LOVING, COMPASSIONATE, GIVING, AND FRIENDLY AND DONT GO TO CHURCH ON SUNDAY AND TELL ME HOW GREAT I AM, I WILL DAMN YOU TO HELL. Well maybe it is a tyrant and fumbling leader.

I recieved a personal message from a person. I will let they remain anonoymous. But they told me about a tradgedy that happened in their life about 10 months ago. The last line of their message read like this "Then when I'm reasonably sane, I remember I believed before all of this happened, please let me keep believing." I dont want to do that to anyone. I enjoy debating, but not at the expense of someones faith. If any words that i have posted have done that to a single person, than its a single person to many. I also dont wish to impede someone from finding Christ, someone who comes to this site for answers. If someone can find happiness in your religion i dont want to stop that. So i have decided that i will stop posting, cause i dont want something like that on my conscience. That doesnt make me feel good about myself. I honestly dont need religion, but i understand that some people do, and i see nothing wrong with that. I dont look down on your religion, i just dont look up to it. I look at it as an equal with all other religions, even if you dont see it that way. I look at it as just as truthful as the other religions, even if you dont see it that way. The word truth is floating around on all these posts, but is it really that bad a thing, if someone can find truth and meaning in atheism, truth and meaning in Judiasm, truth and meaning in Islam, truth and meaning in Buddashism. If you can find truth in something, than hold onto it, no matter what the guy next to you says. Of course every person from every different religion and walk of life is going to think that they are right. Its what they know. But the sad fact is, at the very best, on a single religion that has ever graced the earth can be right. Only one can be absolutely truthful. I personally dont want to gamble. I dont want to say im a Christian, and think i have a leg up on a Muslim. I dont want to say im a Jew, and think i have a leg up on a Budahhist. I dont want to feel at though i am better than anyone, and that is why i am part of no religion. I would like to think that we are all equals. Ive said before, what i believe in the most are the words John Lennon wrote to the song "Imagine". Why not all live together in this world in peace, and not worry about the next. The next world, in my mind is unknown, but this world isnt. We know that we are here, so why not make earth into heaven. I would like to post a few questions, not to try and undermine your faith, but simply because i am curious of your answers. How would God know if something is not above it? Meaning how would God know, if it iself doesnt have a God. And if so, can the sequence ever end. Something is only "all knowing", until it finds out that something knows more. If Christianity is the truth, what about all the people who lived before Jesus and Christianity. It would be impossible to die Christian, or to die accepting Jesus. Twin brothers are born. Neither are born Christian. At age 20, the one brother dies, not Christian. Five years later, at age 25, the surviving brother becomes a Christian. Five years after that, at age 30 , he dies. Is it fair to send one to heaven and one to hell. If they both did not have the same time to find the Lord, how can they be judged the same. If you kill a man in war, is that breaking the code of "tho shall not kill". If you are fighting for your country does it make it alright. Does God turn its head. I dont see how it could, because it didnt created countries, man did. It created a single world. If someone kills 30 people on a killing spree, and the other kills 30 people in war, is it looked at the same. A 2 year old child dies. What happens? It was never able to exercise the free will to choose between good and evil. If God can send that child to either heaven or hell, do we really have free will. If it knows what the child would of grown up to be, then we are only puppets, and God is the puppet master. If God cant send the child to either heaven or hell, where does it go. I bid you all goodbye. THE HIDDEN TRUTH Are there any innocent victims? Are there any unplanned travesties? Does purpose have a choice? Does destiny have intent? Can eyes without sight, see a face that doesn't exist? A glimpse of the wish is all you'll ever get. Recogniton gets washed away by the tides of time. And the truth is always waiting to be found, posing more reckless and dangerous than the paths you took to find it.

DR. LUKE Thats what i have read and learned over time about the story of Moses. Its doesnt mean that i believe it. GERIOKE Correct

HORIZONEAST I dont come to this board to learn more about the faith, cause i actually know alot about it already. I was raised a christian. Im here purley for the discussions. Yes i do have knowledge of the bible, and i think its the greatest book ever written. Im not sure what questions your are talking about imparticular, but i will say this. I probably would find answers to lots of questions about the faith, because that is how the book is designed. Thats the genius of it. But just because it has an answer for something, doesnt mean it is the answer i was looking for. Or its an answer i believe. I dont think that any religion ever present on this earth has ever pinned the tail on the donkey when it comes to our origins as humans. I believe something is out there. I dont understand how something(meaning us), could have come from nothing. We are the effect of what i believe to be an unknown cause. In WE DONT KNOW THE QUESTION, i am included in the "we". The world we live in is a direct result of Jesus. Let me try to explain in the least confusing manner i can. Every moment that happens in the world, can only happen because the moments before it happened the way they did. The moments that happen are a culmination of all the moments before that. A billion tangents going into one point, and from that point, going off in a billion other directions. Everything that happens in the world almost doesnt happen. And vice versa. Let me give and example. On June 14 Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, arrived in Bosnia-Herzegovina. During the motorcade, unknown to him, were serbian nationalists who were against the Austria-Hungary rule for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and instead favored union with Serbia. They were there to carry out an assination. As the car passes them, one of them tosses a grenade at the car. but he forgets about the 10 second delay, an instead hits the car behind Ferdinands, which a few of his advisors were riding in. Ferdinands car speeds away quickly, amid shots fired. Ferdinand is brought to the reception at City Hall. It is there he asks the status of the people who were hurt. He learns that they are in serious condition at the hospital. He demands to go see them. Meanwhile the Serbs have met at the rendeveous, are no they are in serious trouble. The attempt was botched and they will soon be found out. One of the them, Gavrilo Princip decides he needs to clear his head and goes on a walk to get a sandwich by himself. One of Ferdinands advisors maps out the best way to get to the hospital, avoiding city centre and people. But no one told the driver. Half way through their drive, he makes a right turn he wasnt supposed to make. The advisor in the car, realizes and tells him to go back. As the driver puts it in reverse and slowly backs up, Princip walks out of the cornor deli. They drive right past him. Ferdinand is shot and killed. World War 1 is started because of this. Germany is allies with Austria-Hungary, and enters the war on their side. They lose the war. The effect is economic disaster in Germany. The war debts they are forced to pay cripples the nation. The country is in absolute ruins. Now because the country was weak, and in such disarray, it allowed a man by the name of Adolf Hitler to come into power with his new nazi regime. Had Germany not been in the state they were in, the radical Hitler could not have come into power. So World War 2 starts. The nazi regime used Jews as the scapegoats for what was wrong. Hitler was a practicing Christian, and resented the entire race. Where do you think the deep hatred and resentment comes from. I believe it is because Jews denied Christ. I look at the world as being a huge domino effect. The way that things happen now, will impact how things are later. I look at Jesus as being the most powerful and influential domino of them all.

Bro David Where in that thred did i ever say that i was an athiest. And where did i use the name in vain. I actually thought i defended the religion. I honestly dont understand where you are coming from.

HORIZONEAST I believe in a two fact world. If im here, that means i was born(fact 1), and if i was born, that means i will die(fact 2). I dont know why i was born and why i will die. I dont know where i was befor i was born, and i dont know where im going when i die. That is all i know for sure in this world. Yes i do believe in something, but i myself dont even know what that something is, which would make it impossible for me to describe it. I believe that something is out there, well i hope. I gather knowledge from all different sources, from Plato do Dr. Suess, which would include Veda texts. FOGLIGHT Again i take from all different sources. GERIOKE Except that source. I am non political.

I apologize for the Science/Religion part on my above post. I didnt realize the senteces ran together like. I honeslty dont know how (edit) i did that, cause i had them in columns. I didnt mean to have it so confusing to try and read.

Garnius Most of what you said doesnt apply to me because i dont believe in any god of any religion on this earth past or present. Im not a Christian nor am i religious. But you missed the point i was trying to make. I was trying to draw parallels between the two. I look at science as a modern day religion, which in time may overtake theology as we know it. SCIENCE RELIGION Cant explain big bang. Cant explain God. It just happened. Its just there. Big Bang gives us a God gives us a reson why we reason why we are here. are here. Big bang happened so perfect, God is perfect and divine. it is divine. Big bang gives a meaning to God gives a meaning to your your life, a calling. life, a calling. Big bang created all things, all people, God created all things and all not just those who believe in science. people, not just believers Now they do differ of course. Now you said that science has done more than religion. Lately science has done marvelous things. Yes and religion has had its treachery, but religion is the most important thing ever created by man. Because we know we exist on some level, we understand existence, religion was needed. It gave our earliest ancestors hope and reason to carry on life. When someone died, they realized that the person was dead, it affected them the same way it affects us(they are essentially the same people we are). We look up into the same sky they did, so when someone died, they could look up and imagine that the loved one is out there, in the great unknown. So the belief that something else is out there was established. And that belief carried our civilization through, which in turn lead us to science. You stated many horrible things that religion has caused, and i agree with all of them. But science doesnt have a clean slate either. The day America dropped the bomb on Hiroshima our technology surpassed our humanity. Lets just say that in 1000 years the big bang does disproves God. Then people will just find something to disprove that, and so on and so forth. It is neverending. Humans are the only species for which its own existence is an issue(as far as we know). Everyone of us is looking for an answer, and we each find it in different ways. But know ones answer is any better than anyone elses because WE DONT KNOW THE QUESTION