vox

August 30, 2007 - 5:37PM A fundamentalist church pastor had sex with two of his teenage daughters to educate them on how to be good wives, a South Australian court has heard. The 54-year-old man, who cannot be named, was today sentenced in the SA District Court to eight and a half years jail after pleading guilty to seven counts each of incest and unlawful sexual intercourse. The court heard that the man had sex with his daughters for nearly a decade from 1991 when they were aged 13 and 15 at the family property. The sex took place at various locations including in a shearer's shed, a paddock, on the back of a ute and, on one occasion, at the girls' grandparents house. The man told the court the sex was not about fulfilling his desires but about teaching his daughters how to behave for their husbands when they eventually married, as dictated in scripture. In sentencing, Judge David Lovell said the misrepresentation of scripture used to justify the abuse of the girls "defied belief", and that he had "hypocritically betrayed" his religion and principles. "You said the acts were about learning about sex rather than engaging in the acts of sex," Judge Lovell said. "I do not accept that. "You treated your daughters as your property ... using them to satisfy and gratify your sexual urges." Judge Lovell gave full credit for the man's guilty pleas, saying he was genuinely remorseful and had a good chance of rehabilitation as his wife and the church remained supportive. The man will be eligible for parole in four years. AAP SOURCE: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/08/30/1188067266454.html

I am with Floatingaxe, I will pray for him.

I'm back on straight and narrow, vows disgraced preacher February 7, 2007 Colorado: The disgraced evangelical preacher Ted Haggard has emerged from three weeks of intensive counselling convinced he is "completely heterosexual". Mr Haggard, 50, resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals in November and was fired from the church he founded after a male prostitute alleged Mr Haggard paid him for sex during a three-year relationship. Mr Haggard broke a three-month silence at the weekend to email select members of his former church in Colorado Springs, the 14,000-member New Life Church. Ross Parsley, the church's interim senior pastor, forwarded an email message from Mr Haggard to the wider church on Monday. In the message, Mr Haggard revealed that he and his wife, Gayle, intended to leave Colorado and pursue master's degrees in psychology through online courses. He mentioned Missouri and Iowa as possible destinations. Mike Ware, a member of the church oversight board dealing with Mr Haggard's case, said the board had recommended the move out of town and the Haggards had agreed. "It's hard to heal in Colorado Springs right now," Mr Ware said. "It's like an open wound. He needs to get somewhere he can get the wound healed." Another member of the four-man board, Tim Ralph, said that the board had strongly urged Mr Haggard to go into secular work instead of Christian ministry. Mr Haggard admitted to "sexual immorality", and a long battle against feelings contrary to his beliefs, but told the board his sexual contact with men was limited to his accuser, Mike Jones, a former male escort. He also admitted buying methamphetamine but said he never used the drug. Mr Ralph said that three weeks of counselling at an undisclosed Arizona treatment centre helped Mr Haggard immensely and left him sure of one thing. "He is completely heterosexual," Mr Ralph said. "That is something he discovered. It was the acting-out situations where things took place. It wasn't a constant thing." Mr Jones said he revealed his relationship with Mr Haggard after he learned that the man he knew as Art, who paid him for sex on a monthly basis for three years, was a prominent preacher who publicly condemned homosexuality. The Denver Post Link: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/im-back-a...0524096451.html

Muslim boys urinated on Bible Cameron Stewart December 06, 2006 TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire. The explosive incident has forced the East Preston Islamic College to call in a senior imam to tell its 650 Muslim students that the Bible and Christianity must be respected. Anxious teachers at the school have also petitioned principal Shaheem Doutie, expressing "grave concern" about an "inculcation of hatred and radical attitudes towards non-Muslims" at the school, including towards non-Muslim teachers. The Bible desecration took place last week at a school camp held near Bacchus Marsh, about 50km west of Melbourne, attended by 33 teenage Muslim boys ranging in age from Year7 to Year 10. A school report of the incident, obtained by The Australian, says it happened late at night and involved three students and another two watching. "The main perpetrator (a Year 7 student) urinated on the Holy Bible, tore some pages from the Holy Book and burnt them then finally spat on the Holy Book," the report says. The second boy, from Year 9, "tore pages from the Holy Book and burnt them", while a third student, from Year 7, "tore pages from the Holy Bible and then he rolled it up like a cigarette and pretended to smoke it". The boys come from a variety of ethnic Muslim backgrounds -- one is believed to be an Albanian/Malaysian, another Lebanese and another Indonesian. Mr Doutie, whose school receives about $3.9 million in state and federal government funding each year, told The Australian yesterday that both he and the school community were appalled by the Bible desecration and that he had expelled the first two boys and suspended the third. In a letter to all staff on Monday, Mr Doutie wrote: "The school unconditionally apologises for this horrible act as conducted by some illiterate and ignorant students while under the care of EPIC teachers. "We regard the desecration of the Bible in a very serious light and therefore we have taken serious action against the offenders. "The Bible is an important book both for non-Muslims and Muslims and should be treated as a holy book by all religions." Mr Doutie said he did not believe that the boys realised the significance of their act. But to ensure it did not happen again he had called in the assistant imam of the Newport Mosque, Oman Haouli, to tell the students that the Bible was a sacred book. "My lesson to them was to respect their neighbours and respect all religions," Mr Haouli said yesterday. But the desecration incident has shaken the nerves of the school's teachers, about half of whom are non-Muslim. A petition signed by 22 teachers expressed "anguish and dismay at the grave incident of the desecration of the Holy Bible". "This whole incident implies a deep hatred inculcated in the students towards the Christians/non-Muslim teachers," it says. The petition said there had been "previous incidents of students misbehaving towards non-Muslim teachers". It called on the school to "take steps to rectify this explosive situation" to ensure the safety of teachers. Mr Doutie said the school had tried to contact the parents of the expelled boys to find out why they had desecrated the Bible. But he said the school had not received a response. EPIC is an eight-year-old primary and secondary school in Melbourne's north that caters mostly to the children of working-class immigrant Somali and Lebanese families. The Bible desecration comes at a time of heightened tension among Australia's 300,000-member Islamic community, many of whom believe their religion is being unfairly discriminated against because of terrorism fears. Many Muslims remain angry about the public humiliation suffered by their spiritual leader, the mufti Taj Din al-Hilali, after the Sheik likened female rape victims to pieces of meat who brought the attacks on themselves. SOURCE: http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,2...from=public_rss

Axe, you just want to argue for the sake of it while contradicting yourself. Please read my reply. If you believe His Church consists of body of believers then you must also love His Church, and you must also believe that He is coming for His Church, His bride or His body of believers. Since you brought up the subject of government. Why did the founding fathers of America find it necessary to draw up the constitutions? Do you live and abide by the rules and regulations, abide by the law? Bear in mind that even here in WB we must abide by the rules and regulations set out by the Borad.

The Church is the Bride of Christ which consists of the body of believers. An institution as referred above is a much larger groups of Churches thus a much larger and organized body of believers. This is formed largely out of necessity and convenience, so as to lead, to teach the Way as you put it. Apart from the RCC, a great many Protestant denominations also form institutions. In some way Worthy Board is similar to an institution though a virtual one, it also has purpose and direction including rule and regulations. In fact our lives are governed by rules and regulation many of these are institutionalized out of necessity and convenience. Otherwise chaos will reign. If we love Christ then we must also love His Church - His body of believers ie His institution. This is the single most important command He gave us. That is to love God with all our heart, with our soul and to love one another.

Great explanation.

2 Dead people - Need to research... Please allow me to answer this one Fiosh. Please refer to Revelation 8 3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. The saints referred to in the above verses are people who are with God, yes, dead people, and their prayers ascend to God like incense. They are praying on our behalf. Hope that answer your query Artsylady.

But you just reinforce what I have been saying all along. Why should one law for the Muslims and one law for non Muslims? Why should they react the way they do just because they are marginalized? Do you think Western culture are not intertwined with her religion? The culture of Europe is the culture of Christianity, this is a fact. Even though Europe and the West have become much more secular it doesn't negate the fact that their cultural heritage is one of Christianity. Yet you do not see Christians behave the way Muslims do when Christ is caricatured in Islamic countries and it is being done regularly. Here is the view of one Muslim: http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/news/theau...n-05-08-22.html

Sigh. GBG, you are entitled to your opinion and I am not going hold it against you. You must know something I don

As always you have never been able to substantiate any of your claim or answer any questions. Your stance on Catholicism and Christianity is beside the point, I am more than happy to supply those unanswered questions to you. Vox thing is, I am not arguing whether if catholism is true or not( which I believe is not) but rather that I don't consider catholics christian. For me it is another religion. Not getting into this disccussion with you, last time thread got closed down. Cell, you are missing my point. I never argue that point with you. It is not for me to judge you, and it matters little what you think of Catholicism and Catholics. However you must allow Catholics to defend their faith when you or others make untrue statements and disparaging remarks about Catholicism. That's all really. I am not trying to get you to agree with the Catholic teaching. But you must allow me to defend untrue statements about the Church. If you read all my posts on the subject you will find that's my very purpose and no more. Every time non Catholics have no answer the thread is closed down, and it isn

Well you are quite wrong. You are referring to the jiza which is the MANDATORY TAX paid by non Muslims one they are under Muslims occupation or once they are subdued by their Islamic masters. So please don't twist the meaning of jiza. See here what the Islamic Presidency says regarding the jiza before you start twisting the real purpose of imposing it to non Muslims : http://www.java-man.com/Pages/MiscIslamic/FatwaOnUnion.html Where it is stated:

As always you have never been able to substantiate any of your claim or answer any questions. Your stance on Catholicism and Christianity is beside the point, I am more than happy to supply those unanswered questions to you.

2ndeve, ladyraven and georgesbg Greetings, rather than reply to each it is just as easy to reply to all three, hope there is no objection. In your collective replies it is implied that: 1. Most Muslims are peace loving. 2. You equate Christianity with Islam or Christian with Muslim. 3. You claim the article provided is biased. 1. If most Muslims are peace loving, where are they when the Mohammed cartoon were published? Why such violent protest around the world by all Muslims from Indonesia to Britain to Arabia? Or don

You certainly have totally failed to justify your own claim that Scripture supports violence. You have totally failed to even attempt to support it. That does not surprise me in the least. The claim you made has never been substantiated in the face of genuine scholarship. It is so very predictable that, any time that the blatant (and illegal) incitement to violence of the Qur'an is mentioned on the 'net, some person will bring up this total nonsense about Scripture, and often decline to even try to justify the accusation. Some people would, it seems, prefer to live under Sharia law than have their ears troubled by the sound of the gospel of life and freedom. Christians are mocked for their peaceable and supposedly impractical ways, because they are commanded to turn the other cheek, and are commanded always to love their enemies. However, this 'defect' is instantly forgotten whenever Islam's violence is brought up. The protean principles and hypocrisy of anti-Christians are astonishing. I couldn't agree more.

Are you wearing the same blinkers as the other two? I was referring to the British islamist group! And why not Christian sources? The article I posted is from a Christian sources, it does not make it any less valid than from an Islamic source. Could you explain why the lack of condemnation from the Islamic world re attrocities committed in the name of Islam? Why such support shown for Bin Laden from ordinary Muslims around the world? May be you know something I don't, do share.

Kindly point out where and when did I say every Muslim is violent? I was not referring to ALL Muslims, I was referring to the British islamist group whose intention was to commit mass murder in a massive scale, so please get your fact right. 2nd, those Christians who committed violent act did so not in accordance to the teaching of Christ. If you can find anything in His teaching advocating violence please show me. Again I was only referring to the British Islamist group. And Constantine certainly was not the founder of Christianity. Please do not twist my word. I assume nothing. However you can certainly assume a point and than prove it by providing evidence, what's wrong with that? It is a legitimate question based on the article in the link provided, unless of course you have not bothered to read the whole article.

I have posted a few articles relating to Islam from a Christian perspective. The most recent threat posed by British islamist group to blow up to 10 British Airways trans-atlantic flights and some US airlines so as to kill in a massive scale is yet another example of radical Islam holding the non Muslim world to ransom. The question is, are they really a fanatical group of muslims who subscribe to a brand of radical Islam or are they just being good Muslim following in the foot-step of Osama bin Laden and their Prophet Mohammed? Go to: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/001/1.32.html

Real mature. If you want to challenge Islam, how about you research it and do so on more intelligent grounds? All you've done is post a link to a comic which has been drawn/created with the express purpose of mocking Islam, rather than actually analysing or critiquing it on any intellectual, historical or moral basis. Gratuitous cheap shots help nobody. Quite right, to use any of Chick's tracks as an example only goes to reveal the level of the poster's intelligence. Jack Chick is a proven liar and his website spreads only fear and hatred. If Chick's brand of Christianity is validated than as Christian we are really in trouble.

Mohammad99, you are doing it again. How many times should I remain you the purpose of your visit here? You come to ascertain how we feel about Islam. I am not interested in least what you have to say about Christianity, I am interested in you answering my questions about Islam. You have ignored the questions and go on to spread more lies not only about Christianity but you also try to justify 'jihad' . You can not have it both ways. Please answer the following questions: The questions: Why do the Mullahs and Imams (both are islamic religious leaders) preach only hatred and destruction to the infidels (unbelievers

He is not speaking of many churches. Though I am not quite sure what unity and what ONE Church you are referring to, since there are well over 40,000 non Catholic denominations and each claiming to have the truth. Kindly answer the last question: How do you reconcile 2Timothy 3:16-17 to John 21:25? After all you brought up 2Tim3:16-17 as the basis for relying solely on the Bible.

What is a Nestorian and why am I a heretic? I am only going by scripture. This Immaculate Conception is not scriptural in the least. God will not accept people adoring anyone or anything other than HIM. Period. Anything other than HIM is idolatry. Pretty dangerous ground. I said 'IF' you subscribe to the Nestorian heresy you are a heretic. If you go by Scriptures you would also have understood my explanation which is all based on Scriptures. That's what everyone has been claiming. How do you know for sure it is the Holy Spirit? How do you know you are right and others are wrong? Assuming you are right, then the Holy Spirit must have been asleep for almost 2000 years only to wake recently and guide you? Assuming you are right how come there are so many different interpretations amongst the non Catholic Christians and no one seems to be able to agree on anything? Is the Holy Spirit teaching different truth to different people? Even within this thread there are varrying degree of opinions amongst you. Who is right? I am still waiting for the answer to my question: How do you reconcile 2 Timothy 3:16-17 to John 21:25? Is it ever going to be answered or there really is dishamorny according to non Catholic Christians' interpretation of the Bible?

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was born without sin and she remained sinless through out her life. However I am not going into other Marian doctrines and this is one of them. I am clarifying the Catholic stance that Mary is the Mother of God. Christ divinity was called into question because Nestorius heretical teaching which said that Christ was born with two natures, not one, both divine and human at the same time.

hi vox !! what questions? I did try to find them but couldnt!! Just rewrite them . Mohammad99, it is very simple just click on pages 8 and 9 below then scroll find my posts.

This is also incorrect. Mary was the mother of the incarnated God-man, Jesus. The Roman church made a grievous theological error when it claimaed that Mary was the "mother of God." The title implies something about Mary herself, which elevates her to a position above other humans. As a human being, Mary was just as fallen, just as fallible as the rest of us. At a point she acknowledged the need for Jesus' salvation, just as the rest of us who have come to believe into Christ ourselves. I do not wish to discuss any other Marian doctrine. You are touching on the subject of the Immaculate Conception, which have been discussed at length many times in this forum. Suffice to say that if you say she is the Mother of the incarnated God-man and as you also implied below then she is above other humans. Therefore your reply is contradictory. If you say: Then Mary is the Mother of God, she is the Theotokos. There is no grievous theological error as you put it. In my previous reply I discuss at length why this is so. The doctrine of the Theotokos is Christ-centered and not Mary-centered, it is to safe-guard the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ against the Nestorian heresy which separates the one nature of Christ into two. Not only does it deny Christ's divinity but also it questions the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.