Shelby

I disagree with you mcm. I believe in your definition of foreknowledge is your view. Like the post said, God is not bound by time. You and I will never agree on this issue as we have proven on other forums. Maybe you can work on your wordage of your posts they come off very condescending and "know-it-all-ish". Take time to pray and seek God's counsel before you make statements. Spoken in love. Shelby

Sanctification, Thank you so much for your post. I have been on this board saying similar things. Be confident, know that God does hear your prayers and he will answer them. Keep the faith. God will reward your faithfulness to Him. Here is where I think things get mixed up. Wordage, picking words out of one scripture and basing a belief on that. Continue to read God's word as a whole and he will reveal to you through the Holy Spirit his will. This is how i can explain it, but know I am human, and I have studied this and prayed about it, but this is my understanding. Predestination is - when God makes the decision about what will happen. The choice is His, not ours. We are forced to do what he has decided. (just a definition I do not hold this belief) Foreknowledge is - when we make the decision but God already knows what my choice is. The fact that God already knows what my decision is going to be does not take away my free will choice. Remember when God was asked what His name was He said "I AM." He is omnipresent and exists in the past, present and future all at once and in all places. This concept is difficult to wrap our human minds around, but it is what I understood from my theology classes in seminary and through personal study as well. Thus Jesus could know that Judas would betray Him without taking away Judas' choice (or Judas' responsibility for that choice). God's knowledge that Judas would end up in Hell, doesn't mean that God predestined him to go there. Having said the above, I realize that this is a discussion where many Christians disagree. Please accept my offering in the loving spirit in which it was shared.

Like I said, pick and pull all the scriptures you want to support your beliefs, but I feel confident that God will usurp all this petty scripture picking and let the message of his word speak first. How can some of you be so judgemental? Isn't this a forum, not a condemnation board.

Thank you YOD. I didn't know it but I needed that. Also you too Hippos Hope. It just seemed that people were claiming through their beliefs that I have no right to be a minister, or to answer that calling. Thanks for the support. Sometimes I felel like an island on this forum.

You are incorrect. I believe you are taking them out of context. I find God's Word Holy and any implication that I would think otherwise is taken as an offense. I am in no way naive to the scriptures and do not enter into this discussion lightly. I have been reading and praying about this subject and I feel confident that God has confirmed my understanding. I would rather not re-state my remarks over once again, to see what I believe and know to be true, you can read my former posts and also Kelsc's posts.

You are forgiven, I understand this is just discussion. I do know that people on these boards are wanting to learn and be a good witness. As am I wanting to. You're just great WIP...what a wise sister we have on this board...not forgetting IR and SD and....

God would have made another way to help Saul (Paul) come to the conclusion. Because God gives us circumstances to help to Glorify himself deosn't mean that he made the choise to choose Paul and say someone else of that time. I find it abhorent that people would choose to think that God would choose who is going to heaven and who isn't. I ask again why Jesus? What about John 3:16? What about the whole new testament? We aren't talking about free will in the garden, that is obvious, we are talking about now, today. Will you "choose" Christ or deny him? Do you believe you can make that choice? If God called you home right now, do you have assurance of heaven? Do you believe that you can live for God and choose him as your Lord and Savior, and know you will be in heaven if you die this minute? I do not believe that we can save ourselves, because God knows our heart, but if we are sincere when we ask Jesus into our heart and live for him and stay in his will, then God's faithfulness will prevail, and he will welcome us to eternity. But God knocks at the door, we must answer, he has called us to a holy life, it is our choice to accept his sacrifice or deny Him. JMO

You are right since your wife thinks they way you do, and since you heard a woman on the radio, it must be gospel. What about Mary Magdalene, and the woman at the well, and Mother Theresa? These are all women God called, who were witnesses and who were used by God to lead Men and women to him. I feel like people keep picking apart the Bible and choosing which ones will support their ideas. Read the whole Bible, not saying you haven't before, but do it again. Then, pray to God for wisdom and that your heart would be open for his leading. I cannot believe how strongly some feel about women leading in the church. If God has called a woman to leadership, who's judge are you. I am not a feminist in any way, but I almost feel drawn to feel probably what some of them might feel. I am going to study this again, and again, until God helps me to understand what I am hearing on this forum. I am so fumbuzzled at the comments on this thread.

Salt & Light, I hear what you are saying. I actually believe it for the most part. I just believe that it is good to have healthy discussion. I have faith that the Holy Spirit is able to work in us when we delve into understnading God and his reasons for what he says, and his purpose for us doing, or not doing things. That is why he convicts us. I think that, to use your illustration, "fornication", It is very important to read the context and not just the whole chapter, but learn about the author, the times, the culture, before you go and decide "it is written and that is it". I believe every word of the Bible is true. I believe that they were given by the inspiration of God and they are God's Word. I just get really perterbed when we begint o pick and choose scripture to back our stance. I would just encourage everyone to read up and pray up on issues. Again, I feel very differently than you on this subject. I won't resay my stance, but I also know that God moves in me and my life, and he has called me to be a minister, there is no question in my mind regarding that. God confirms everyday His will for my life. I happen to be a pretty good preacher, and love what he has called me to. Since God has called me, why shold anyone second guess His decision? Only God is my judge and I am very comfortable knowing that God is pleased with me. I strive every day to keep it that way. GBU

keslc said the second comment you quoted, not salt and light.

Gina I am with you on most of what you said. But, I just don't understand the issue. I am a woman and I AM called to be a minister. I have known for years. There are many women in my church who are ministers. Thousands. They are just as effective as any man. They both bring strengths and weaknesses. I revert back to keslc's post. She and I agree on most all things and she is a Godly woman, who I believe is called too. She is in charge of a daycamp and afterschool program, she has a man working under her, and so do I in my position. I don't see where God said a man could do it better, or it was more fitting for him to be here. I am no women's activist by any means, but I am called, to which I believe is not up for discussion. I am called, I am a woman, and I am a minister, as is my mother-in-law, keslc's mother, as are alot of our friends. All amazing women who have been wonderful examples of grace and faithfulness through their service. I find it hard to believe that God would be so oppressive. He's not. (BTW I am not upset or heated, I know it is hard to read tone, I just feel strongly about this subject and about people picking apart the Bible. God speaks to my heart and I listen. He has spoken, and I am called, no ands, ifs, or buts.)

mcm, Romans 9 i believe is pertaining to who you are not what choices you will make. Like having bad eyesight, or being chunky, or tall, or blonde, or black, etc. Then what is your answer for John 3:16. Whosoever........or who God has chosen? No Whosoever, anyone. I don't see the difference if you say God has chosen who wil and who won't why people even care about the Resurrection or, faith, or grace, it's like being a Jehovah's witness hoping to get into those select few who are going to heaven. I think God is bigger than that. I know that I will go to heaven if he were to call me right now.

Then I guess I don't understand your stance. If God chooses your destiny, then where does what you do, not become what he has chosen for you. Do you believe that God chooses who will be in eternity with him?

I am a Woman and an ordained woman. So I obviously have a different view than most so far on this discussion. If God has called me then who should have an issue with that? I am going to study about it. In my church the Husband and wife are both ordained after seminary and single women and men as well. So what do those of you think about Nuns?

Mcm, So you have never done anything that God hasn't chosen for you? He can use your stupid mistakes to teach you lessons, God can do great things with Satan's attempts to stump us. He sure has turned some really bad situations to teach me some good lessons. He allows things to happen in our lives to draw us close, it is how we deal with those situations that is our choice. Help me understand where you aren't responsible for your own actions?

Thanks, I couldn't figure it out. I appreciate your openess and understanding. I think it is important to chat and make sure not only do we know what we believe, but we believe what we believe. If that makes sense. Sorry if you felt bombarded. Not our intention at all. GBU and your family!!

QUOTE He knew they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean He MADE them disobedient This is an interesting way of putting it, and your emphasis on the word "made" is very intruiging. (It is interesting that as we argue for differing points, we inevitably prove the other belief to the other person, isn't that odd? ) IF God knew that they would sin and still "MADE" them, didn't he "make them" disobedient? If God didn't want them to sin, could he have stopped it? Who said he had to make adam and Eve? He could have said, NOPE If their going to sin I"m not Going to make them, because I don't want anyone in sin. IN fact, why create satan, obviously God knew satan would fall, yet he created him anyway! Why? Of Course, God could stop anything, he could have stopped Jesus's Crucifixion, but where would we be? It is important to know that God allows a person to choose and he does know what they will choose, but does that not mean that that person's life couldn't have been a testimony to another person. It could have been that one fallen person's life that helped another person realize God in his wisdom and plan. Just because every story doesn't have a happy ending doesn't mean that it was all for naught. I read your previous post and think I understand better what you are saying, yet I do not believe the same way. I think it is about perspective. It is important to me to know and understand that God chooses everyone. He does. He didn't send his son to die for some, he did to die for all, but it was each person's choice not to choose Christ. It hurts him, but it is important that there must be a baance, if you believe in John 3:16 I don't believe that your view fits that view. The WHOLE WORLD. Anyone, everyone, whosoever. It is your choice. God did call you, when he breathed life into you. Giving life, is that not the greatest gift. No one is worthless to God, yet no one is worthy of him, that is why he gives us grace. I could go on forever. But i do know we are not going to make eachother see what we want, but we can pray that God will help us to understnad his word and eachother better. GBU

Yes, Romans was written by Paul.

O.K. I agree with the posted definition, which would mean that " No area of human nature remains unaffected." Then how can we, if every area is affected, capable of choosing Christ on our own? Doesn't God or the Spirit have to do something in us to allow us to make that decision? Otherwise we would never come to Christ of our own accord. Just because sin has "affected" every area doesn't mean it has taken over every area. I have sin in my life I am sure, but I want to live for Jesus. We are capable of making a good decision under the influence of Sin. It all comes down to Who God is to you. To me he is a gracious loving father, who yearns to have a relationship with me, and hurts when I choose things that do not include him. He is still there when I realize I left him out and he accepts me over and over, but i choose whether to answer his calling on my life, I choose to let his spirit guide me daily, I choose to be in fellowship or not. I don't mean to if the tone of my replies sound strong, I feel strongly about God's will for all of us and for us to realize that day that he is coming is soon, and he is waiting for those who have not, to choose him GBU

QUOTE But the bottom line is that he was speaking about role in life not Salvation. Those scriptures you referenced meant calling on life If God prepares vessels for glory and some for destruction, how does that refer to their role in life? (I don't see it) You are reading one translation, not sure which one but, you should check out that reference in a Bible dictionary. Secondly, the NASB, which I believe to be one of the most accurate says, 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" See that is speaking about their role or calling in life, to be a vase or a baking pot from the same clay, but different uses. It does not determine which one will be destroyed. QUOTE 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope Is this verse talking about calling on life too? QUOTE He says, "I stand at the door and knock" you have to answer. He gives you that choice. Just curious then, who would answer the door if we're all totally depraved? Are we even capable of answering if We're Totally depraved, Dead in sin? (I would say we are not, I'm wondering how you have total depravity and free choice, that's what I"m really trying to figure out about your view I think). Sorry, I almost didn't reply, but it's important to me to see how you handle it, that's all, I know we may never agree on this issue, so be it, but I still like to understand people, and what God has shown them through His word. I agree about your last paragraph. It comes down to how much you choose to hang on one word or verse or another. In all you should take it in its context. This letter from Paul was about finding God's purpose or calling. That is what I have researched and found over and over again. I read the whole book and it is very consistent. Even the verses that it sights in other books is condusive to "calling". I choose not to redeine depraved over again, I think our understanding is different. I wrote what I meant by that. Depraved meaning we cando nothing to inherit the kingdom alone. I do appreciate your questions they have helped to solidify my findings and beliefs. GBU

Well I must agree to disagree. I don't think I can put it any other way but to say that that scripture is in regards to God's calling upon a person's life. I use mainly the NASB because it is word fo rword and thought for thought translation. But the Message bible is: "It's directly translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts and is intentionally designed to be a reading Bible rather than a study Bible. " I got from a reliable source for Bible comparison online. I see what you are using as your "arguement" (not badly) for your stance. But the bottom line is that he was speaking about role in life not Salvation. Those scriptures you referenced meant calling on life, like what he is directing you to to better show his Glory to the nations. But God does not predestine who will go to heaven or hell, that is up to the person, God will give the perrson the tools, and use his Holy Spirit to guide you in the path that wil most glorify Him. That doesn't mean you will go that way, or even if you do that you have chosen him. He says, "I stand at the door and knock" you have to answer. He gives you that choice. Keep up the study. http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/pdfs/B...ranslations.pdf is a sight that explains about how the Bible is translated. I think it might help you in seeing what is credible or not. Thank you for all you input and study.

Mcm, I appreciate your questions. I have been studying Romans 9 all morning. I wanted to be sure that I was capable of answering you. I want to make sure that God is helping me answer. The last thing I need is to be giving you my word instead of His. Overall, I believe God was talking about His "calling". I am called to be a minister, keslc is called to be with chidren's ministries. etc. I believe he has chosen trials and tribultaions for us all to endure so that we might draw closer to him, to see his Glory and proclaim it. Just like the parable that Jesus spoke about regarding the person who sinned little vs the one who sinned more, who would appreciate the forgiveness more. Some of us are so hard headed he needs to give us those trials so that we will appreciate it more. Others learn quicker. Like in verse 17, (I read in 3 translations) he tells pharoah he gave Pharoah power to show His own power. I think the Message Bible best says it to me: 10And that's not the only time. To Rebecca, also, a promise was made that took priority over genetics. When she became pregnant by our one-of-a-kind ancestor, Isaac, 11and her babies were still innocent in the womb--incapable of good or bad--she received a special assurance from God. What God did in this case made it perfectly plain that his purpose is not a hit-or-miss thing dependent on what we do or don't do, but a sure thing determined by his decision, flowing steadily from his initiative. 12God told Rebecca, "The firstborn of your twins will take second place." 13Later that was turned into a stark epigram: "I loved Jacob; I hated Esau." 14Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. 15God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." 16Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. 17The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." 18All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill. 19Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?" 20Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" 21Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? 22If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure 23and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? In a commentary I read, it reminds me that "the election of Jacob was not to eternal salvation but, to become the head of a people. As Moses, Samuel, and John the Baptist were raised up for a great work for God, so was Jacob." He gives us a strong will, just like our blonde hair, and a compassionate heart like our blue eyes. (I am a blonde/blue obviously) But it is somethign that he chooses to help us for His Glory. That passage does not say to me that he fore chooses who wil go to Heaven or Hell. Why do we need Jesus then? I apologize for such a long reply, but I was challenged and was excited to see God confirm his will for me and reassure me of my understanding of his mercy and grace. This passage is about mercy and being called for a purpose for His Glory. Hope this helped MCM! GBU in your study!

Keslc! I don't believe that there is a list that is forchosen of who will enter and who won't. I do believe time is of no concern to God. He already knows what you will choose or anyone for that matter. He knows what each person will choose. So in essence, this so-called list, could be there, but olny with God knowing what choice will be made. That is my view atleast. I am no scholar, but something I have gleaned from trying to understand God more. Steve. What is wrong with people discussing things like this? True te Bible is the only authority, but I believe this is healthy and good for us all. So please don't hinder the discussion. I felt a little "sheepish" after your scolding. (I apologize if you didn't mean it that way, it can be hard to read tone on a discussion board). Again thank you everyone for input.

mcm I thank you for your input. I really like to ask myself questions. It is important to me to know what I believe and why I believe it. I said Wesley because that is what influence the founder of the Salvation Army back in the day. But I also said neither, because personally I beleive that both Calvin and Armenian go to the extreme. I didn't say not any of thier ideas, but I could give a percentage, because even within their statements I differ somewhat. I love going into this. I love to be challenged to think outside the box. The moment that you become so convinced that all you think and believe is un taintable it becomes a little scary. One thing I have learned, going through seminary and through life is, God can always teach you. I love to see new aspects of God and what he has for me. You have even taught me alot just being on this board less than a week. I am excited at the possibilities. I think of God as a finely cut jewel, you turn it the slightest bit, or you move a inch and it looks more beautiful than before, it shows you a whole new spectrum of reflection and light. My God is my Jewel. God bless you all. Please know that I do not claim to know everything about my church or Christianity as a whole, but I strive to know more each day. thank you for your role in that. Michelle