germanJoy

It was just my own silly way of expressing my gratitude for the unanticipated compliment which I thought I haven't deserved.

Please be corrected of your wrong presumption regarding my opinion. I have never claimed that Lucifer rebelled before or after creation. I only presented the possibilities of what could have happened on the basis of Scriptures. The word I used in this thread was POSSIBILITY and not (my) OPINION as you have claimed. I had been careful enough not to give my own opinion on the subject Lucificer considering your negative reactions to my posts. If you wish to prove my statement wrong, please be kind enough to requote my previous postings. How can I force anything upon anyone which I haven't even given yet? Thank you. I am not going to entertain any attempts of condemnation that can result to more resentments than forgiveness. In this regard, I will just simply ignore your misconceptions on my remarks. And please try to avoid reading my mind next time which can only lead to another round of abhorrent impressions. Hisgirl, I had always been gentle to you and will remain gentle to you as long as God allows me. If you do not accept my apology, God does and did. I did accept your apology, and God did also. What is pending here is your act of forgiveness. Would you be willing to let it go?

Is that a joke? Is saying "I am also sorry" a joke? Please try to read the whole thread. First, you claimed that we should not judge by quoting a bible verse. I gave you two bible verses in 1 Cor 5 and 1 Pet 4 proving that we are to judge the "so-called brethren". You still vehemently rejected my bible-supported statements by insisting that it is wrong to judge the "so-called brethren". Second, you claimed that there is only one cherubim at the Garden of Eden according to Genesis. I disproved your statement that there is another cherubim at the Garden of Eden by giving you Ezekiel 28. Instead of acknowledging you were wrong, you were all the more upset by accusing my posts to be reeked with arrogance and my manner to be loathsome. You have given me very good reason to believe that you were not accepting the bible verses I gave you. If you have anything personal against me, I ardently advise you to kindly send me a personal message before more unpleasant things are revealed in this thread.

Could you kindly clarify how could one covet a neighbor's humility? Are we not supposed to follow the good examples of others, one of which is humility? Or are you perhaps just jumbling up the words "to follow and to covet"?

You must consider the fact that there are two manners of handling slaves (ancient times) or servants (modern times) before viewing it to be either moral or not. 1. evil manner by treating them as a property or as an object which makes slavery/servanthood IMMORAL. 2. godly manner by treating them as human beings with equal rights like everyone else serving the same God and Master which makes slavery/servanthood MORAL. Henceforth to establish the morality of slavery or servanthood, one only needs to focus on which kind of TREATMENT they receive and not which TIME they came into existence. In this regard, your questions on the immorality of slavery are viewed to be irrelevant. Just to give you an idea, I grew up in a christian nation in Asia with our family having servants. It is the usual household set-up in our country where servants are hired full-time. My circle of family has the tradition to send some of our servants to school in order to give them a chance to live their own lives in the future. These servants someday become masters themselves and after they have settled down they would likewise help out the next generation of servants. But there are some families who treat their servants rudely and unfairly by taking advantage of their poor condition, not paying their salaries, shouting at them, overloading them heavily with heaps of work, even to the point of raping them, etc. That should be one example to be taken today to gauge the morality of hiring servants. @ His girl I accept your apology...I am also sorry for upsetting you with my postings. I should have reconsidered your sensitivity in the area of heavy arguments...I will try to be more gentle with you next time.

If you insist reading only PART of the bible and leaving the rest you do not like to hear, I will not be wasting my precious time any longer to discuss this matter further with you. But if you wish to listen, I will try to explain it again FOR THE LAST TIME and hope that you will get it this time. God judges THE OUTSIDE (the world) which brings us into the position to LOVE all sinners, the unbelievers and show MERCY and COMPASSSION to them like Christ did and NOT JUDGE THEM. But now listen: We should judge THE INSIDE (the "so-called brethren" who are STUMBLING BLOCKS/SINNERS - immorals, drunkard, covetous, idolaters, revilers, etc. in the CHURCH) in order TO REMOVE THE EVIL PERSON from the body of Christ. 9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner

By their fruits, Jesus said, YOU will know them. The FINAL JUDGEMENT is God's but as for the knowing or recognizing the evil-doers in our midst God had given us the ability to judge. Truly we are not to judge the MOTIVES or HEARTS of men or of our brethren but we can judge the evil deeds of the "so-called brethren" that corrupts the holy fellowship of believers. For a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. The Apostle Paul had warn us to keep ourselves away from those who call themselves brethren but are living in sins...we are even instructed to DISFELLOWSHIP them. Now that really sounds very hard but that is the only way to keep THE BODY OF CHRIST untouched and unharmed by the forces of darkness....if indeed we choose to be uncompromising and not arrogant but be caring enough to save one another from the days of evil that leads to destruction and death. 6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. 1 Cor. 5:6-13 I just wanted to know whether you were trying to arrive at a certain point reachable by getting an answer which came first. I didn't see it as a conspiracy on your part. My intention was merely to clarify the matter, no more no less. That was one of the reasons why I tried to compare the anointed cherub at the Garden of Eden in Ezekiel and the fallen angel Lucificer in Isaiah. If Lucificer were not the anointed cherub then that could create a hole into your theory unless Lucificer had influenced the anointed cherub. If it was so, why would Lucificer not direclty tempt Eve then? The other possibility is: Lucificer was an anointed cherub at the Garden of Eden who desired to become like God. He then ended up tempting Eve to eat so that she becomes like God. After Adam's fall, Lucificer became a fallen angel. This possibility again creates a hole into your theory of the existence of evil before Creation (the story of creation for the human's eyes and minds). Well in fact deformities also exist where there are no close relative sexual union. But yet they are created apart from "natural response" and totally independent of any influence from human's attempts of creating an undeformed being. But even for these, God has a purpose. It proves that men's intellectual minds and skillful hands are very limited in order for them to have total control of all deformities. With the modern advance technology and scientific methods, many plagues and epidemics had been eliminated but yet the fact remains that there are still diseases that are incurable. Could that be an explanation to why things had to be what we thought should not be? So that men are able to realize that God is God and man is just a mere man...even though man would try to be like God making possible the impossible, he would end up realizing that he is nothing but dust. I was just trying to establish the difference on the evil happenings between the righteous (like Job for testing and for discipline leading to life) and the wicked (as a punishment or judgment leading to death).

I am afraid you have misunderstood most of my statements, His girl. I was exclusively refering to those who have fallen away, the ones living according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. Their sufferings should not be put into one level with the sufferings of the true christians who are diligently resisting the devil and standing firm in their faith. What you do is putting both sufferings into one pot. Please try to distinguish between the two before trying to warn me of anything. I have no idea what you are up to...it sounds like asking me whether the chicken came first or the egg? Had sin not entered the world, evil would have not reigned on one hand. Had evil not persuaded Eve to eat of the fruit, sin would have not born on the other hand. Now does it really matter which of the two came first? The day of evil is created for the wicked...read Proverbs again: God created everything...even the wicked for the day of evil. If you believe that evil or the day of evil is also created by God for the righteous, whom would they believe would save them if the day of evil is made for them together with the wicked? The issue here is not between those who are for predestination or freewill...that is a very minor issue that carries no weight when it comes to one's salvation. The issue I am trying to zero in here is the distinction between the good fruit and the bad fruit, the faithful and the lazy servants, the wise virgins and the foolish virgins, the sheep and the goats. If you read these parables, you will know that both are "believers" but only one is able to make it. Agreed. Would you also choose to love and be in unity with the false apostles, false teachers, false christs, the false brethren, His girl? Or would you rather obey the Word of God by sharply rebuking their sinful ways and false teachings? Or would you choose to tolerate their sins and assure them of God's love instead of warning them of God's judgment? What the church badly needs today is the voice of the prophets.

Yes indeed...history tells us how the genuine Christians suffered...they faced danger and laid down their lives for their faith. That was the real christian suffering done for the CAUSE OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. The "evil sufferings which the christians" are experiencing today cannot be compared to the godly sufferings which the early believers underwent. A suffering nowadays that awaits heavenly reward is one faced by Christians who are persecuted, imprisoned and executed by the unbelievers under the ruleship of the evil one. When sin entered the world, all forms of evil ruled the hearts of men. There was even no need for Satan to work hard for men to be evil, since men through their sinful nature already became evil. Satan instead kept/keeps himself busy ACCUSSING the brethren/the believers before God. God certainly DID SOMETHING to stop ALL forms of evil i.e, by dying at the Cross of Calvary for it. Christ by paying the price in full redeemed us from our sinful and evil nature. But not all men are predestined to be freed from evil...for many are invited but few are chosen. Thus evil still reigns the hearts of men but not those hearts where CHRIST reigns. For what fellowship does darkness have with light? A house where Christ reigns does not have a place for the evil one. God has mercy on whom He has mercy, and He hardens whom He desires. If one is predestined to salvation, the day of his salvation will come regardless of his circumstances. One hears of reports how people come to Christ for the purpose of having a good better life out of their dilemna but since the seed fell on the rocky places and among the thorns, they fall away. Can you provide a Scripture to prove that God created evil for the righteous? As far as I know, while the righteous awaits good the wicked awaits evil to fall upon them. 30The righteous will never be shaken, But the wicked will not dwell in the land. Proverbs 10:30 8The righteous is delivered from trouble, But the wicked takes his place. 9With his mouth the godless man destroys his neighbor, But through knowledge the righteous will be delivered. Proverbs 11:8-9 7The wicked are overthrown and are no more, But the house of the righteous will stand. Proverbs 12:7 21Adversity pursues sinners, But the righteous will be rewarded with prosperity. Proverbs 13:21 Do you really think God will not bring justice for the righteous when the righteous suffers? When Jesus comes, do you think He will find FAITH on the earth? 7now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? 8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 Isn't it that due to lack of counsel, the people will perish? 14Where there is no guidance the people fall, But in abundance of counselors there is victory. Proverbs 11:14 Be assured, His girl, that I weep with those who are IN CHRIST.

One very essential point should be considered here. Job though a non-Israelite was a righteous man. Saul and Ahab were both sinful even though they were the kings of Israel. God did not send an evil spirit the way He did to Saul and Ahab to test Job because Job was a blamess man in His eyes. It is thus my humble opinion that He allowed Satan to play the role of inflicting evil upon Job since God does not inflict the righteous. God cannot simply punish or inflict those who love and obey Him. It is Satan's goal to destroy, accuse and inflict the righteous but apart from God's approval he possesses no direct power over them. Jehoshapat was in fact the one who convinced Ahab to inquire from the Lord and to hear what the prophet Micaiah had to say. Ahab made Jehosphat to wear his robe in order for the enemy to chase Jehosaphat and be killed in his place. But the will of the Lord to protect Jehosaphat prevailed. You have misunderstood my point. I agree that the devil is the father of lies. The lie which the devil speaks is one thing. It is an evil word that speaks against God and His Word. The goal of the devil's lie is to destroy the works of God. The lying spirit God sent is another thing. It is an acting spirit to make the rebelling men believe the lie to be a truth or the truth to be a lie. The goal is for the will of God to prevail i.e., death over those who lives unrighteous life but yet call themselves children/people of God i.e., those who have fallen from the faith. Throughout the Scriptures, there was no single incident that God had ever sent destruction to those who live righteously. He only destroyed and destroys the wicked generation like Sodom and Gomorrah. The Australian bushfire was initiated by human beings either with an evil purpose to destroy or with an innocent intention that led to destruction. Regarding your question why God allowed it, I rather would ask first: Was there any prophet interceding and praying in the spirit before it happened? Or was the church getting busy instead diligently preaching that there are no more prophets today? Why are we so quick to right away point at God rather than at our own failures? 1. Because God is all knowing and Almighty. And although having the knowledge of good and evil, God is HOLY unlike the fallen angel and the fallen men who out of their own freewill chose evil. The purpose of the wicked is for the day of evil. 2. See my answer above. 3. We do not fight evil but we FLEE from evil and we fight against the evil forces. God uses no evil as if He can be served by evil in order to be glorifed. I am not for that kiind of thinking. For I am convinced that His goodness has never been and never will be limited to any deeds of evil. Had the angels or men not fallen, God could have for sure still displayed His majesty and goodness to all creatures. In fact, that will exactly be where we, the body of Christ, are all heading to i.e., to the new heaven and the new earth. Not so much in the case of Ahab but with Saul I think, it has used a more moderate word.

His girl, you are using a different version than I do (NASB translation is "evil spirit terrorizing Saul" while NKJ makes it appear more colorful by translating it to "distressing spirit troubling Saul". Nevertheless the spirit that troubled or terrorized Saul comes directly from or through God and not from or through Satan. Do we agree at this point? To give you more insight, read 1 Kings 22:19-23 when a spirit from the Lord volunteered to be a deceiving (NASB) spirit or lying (NKJ) spirit to entice (NASB) or to persuade (NKJ) Ahab, the king of Israel. 19 Then Micaiah said,

One should not think that God needs to create Satan to implement evil...that is a wrong notion. God had not needed Satan and his cohorts to send an evil spirit to those He wants to torture like Saul in the OT.

Everything I write at any forum comes directly from me (if not I would specify the source) and the Bible is usually my only source. The book of Revelation names Satan, the devil, as the serpent of old . Yet there is no 100% indication whether it refers to the same serpent at the Garden of Eden. Besides this, Satan and his angels remained in the heavenlies (note there are stages of heaven), once in a while appearing before God to accuse the brethren. See also the book of Job (Job 2:1) where Satan appeared before God with the sons of God to present himself. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." Rev. 12:9-12 Satan is at times in heaven and sometimes roams around the earth. The stage of heaven where he dwells is not where God dwells. Although he presents himself before God now and then, the Scripture does not tell that he dwells where God's throne is. Additionally, the Apostle Paul wrote about the third heaven. This establishes the fact that there is a first and a second heaven. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor. 12:2

Theoretically speaking, the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 being the serpent at the Garden of Eden could be a different creature than the fallen angel Lucificer in Isaiah 14. Notice that the King of Tyre possessed with beauty and violence was placed as an anointed cherub at the Garden of Eden while the Star of the morning who desired to be like God was thrown out of heaven and became a fallen angel. That tells us that he (Lucifer) was not the anointed cherub (serpent) on earth after creation. 12"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13"But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' 15"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15 12"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an access to becoming like God, knowing good and evil and having the ability to choose between the two which made their freewill sinful. God placed the tree at the Garden to test Adam and Eve. Scripture tells us that God tests the righteous which was the position of man before the fall. There is a high probability that Lucifer was also in a similar condition before his fall.