anti-hillbilly

You've asked your representatives and president to outlaw invitro fertilization? Or just embryonic stem-cell research? I care; I've watched my own child suffer in pain. I've watched my own child cry and sob and ask, "Why me?" So I get a little irrate when I hear somebody compare a non-suffering dot to my child; it stoopid and incredibly insulting! My body disposes of an ovum every month; biologically that too is life...a living cell with the potential to become a human under the right circumstances. BUT I know it isn't human yet nor is it equilivent to my suffering child; neither are these microscopic embryos (these republican politicians KNOW it too). No brain, no organs, no nerve endings; no limbs, no pain, no awareness; not human yet. It's pure stupidity not to use them in a effort to do some good. They may not ever find cures for these disease but we've got to try. Science has definitely prolonged people's lives by about 30 years during this last century plus they've discovered things like invitro and insulin and flu shots, polio vaccines. If people didn't pursue those therapies we'd still be dying by the thousands before reaching the age of 40. -- I read somewhere there's a couple hundred thousand zygotes already frozen and that's small compared to the number that been disposed of. They can't freeze them all and even if they could not all would ever develop. Even on the natural order of things, getting pregnant the old fashioned way, many spontaneously abort (miscarriage) on their own. BTW - I'd advise all of you to be careful about relying on any information you get from Focus on the Family. Be sure and independently verify what he says before repeating it. I've been on James Dobson's mailing and calling list for many years and he isn't honest. He gives false information and he leaves out important information in order to get people to agree with his opinion on things. He does not speak for God, he speaks for himself. I've lost all respect for the man over the years. [edit; adding this] This article says 400,000; double the 200,000 I thought.: Right Wing Should Adopt 400,000 Embryos [link]

I understand that and I'm all for adult stem-cell therapy. I'm also in favor of couples adopting frozen embryos; then putting a sock in it when it comes to using those slated for disposal for medical research. What do you not understand about the FACT that almost ALL of the left-overs are destroyed.....everyday? What do you not understand about the glaring hypocrisy.

So are you going to do anything about it? Are you gonna raise a stink about it?

question: How many of these microscopic embryos will be saved by President Bush's veto? answer: None; no change from before, they'll continue to be labeled "medical waste" and disposed of .....for nothing. Those of you who really think this is murder should be up in arms about this "medical waste" disposal. Why so quiet on the subject? After calling your representatives you should also give James Dobson, Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson a call too and tell them to use their power to put a stop to this "crime" against microscopic embryos immediately. Also, imo, those of you who've gotten invitro fertilization but oppose this research need to get on your knees and repent for your "sin" of "murdering" your "left-overs" AND for your "sin" of hypocrisy.

Ted - militarily we're not in a position to wage another war. Diplomacy is all we've really got. The good news is that it looks like Iran is ready to talk......not be bullied. Here's a pretty good article I came across [link]

If you believe an embryo that is so small you need a microscope to see it is fully human; equal to a little child going thru chemo or a diabetic child pricking their finger and taking daily insulin shots then by all means call your representative and ask them to ban invitro fertilization. If the religious right is going to take away this pursuit of a cure for our sick kids then the religious right should have to live with the barren wombs that God gave em!

Well, a GED was accepted when I joined; even the army link refers to "when they accepted one". [link] You can still get a waiver but you have to score high enough on the ASVAB. I was in the AF and their requirements are higher than the Army's but I joined a couple years after the Vietnam War and they were hurting for recruits. It's getting that way again; the army recently raised the age to 42 [link]. ------------------------ Now back to the topic of stem-cell research; from an article by William Fisher: When the religious right-wing is in full-throated opposition, it is highly effective in conveying the impression that it speaks for every religious soul. The white noise of its rhetoric tends to drown out all other points of view and maintains that other points of view don't exist at all. Not so. Thankfully, there are thousands of religious leaders who believe that it is right-wing fundamentalism that dishonors God and science. They are still less visible and a lot less well-funded than the James Dobsons and Tony Perkinses of the world. But the more the Bush administration continues to pander to what it still calls its base, the more these other voices grow both in numbers and in influence. One of the most articulate of these voices is Rev. Tim Simpson, who heads a relatively new organization known as The Christian Alliance. What he had to say about President Bush's stem cell veto is worth our attention. The president's use of his veto authority, Rev. Simpson said, "will result in the early deaths and unnecessary suffering of millions of Americans. It is one of the most stunning, irrational decisions of an administration with a reputation for such and the most telling piece of evidence yet that America is under the sway of theocrats whose obsession for ideological purity outweighs their concern for America's, and the world's, sick and dying." He continues: "The most illogical aspect of this debate is that the embryos which were to be used had the legislation passed will be thrown away! The twisted moral framework that would allow the embryos to be discarded rather than used to heal and save lives goes hand in glove with the pseudoscience that has become the hallmark of the Religious Right, to which this administration gives its highest loyalty." And he asks, "How long will Christians in this country stand for such outrages?" Rev. Simpson tells the story of Jesus the Healer in Mark 6. "The text says that Jesus had compassion for the crowd because they were 'like sheep without a shepherd.' Into the midst of the chaos of the people's lives, Jesus' compassion manifested itself in the healing of their bodies, as the crowds brought the sick to him to make them whole. Tens of thousands of American churches whose pastors follow the lectionary will hear this text this Lord's Day in congregations all across the country. How sad that this is to be the text in so-called Christian America, on the Sunday after the Christian President of the United States threw the sick under the bus. Talk about sheep without a shepherd." Rev. Simpson assures us, "This is not a partisan issue. There isn't a Democrat, Republican or Independent who doesn't know someone who is suffering from diabetes, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer, paralysis or a host of other diseases and ailments that could be ameliorated or cured through the use of stem cell therapies. Forget the Red State-Blue State clash. Polls indicate that better than 7 out of 10 Americans approve of federal funding for stem cell research. Even someone as conservative as Bill Frist, anxious to help mainstream America forget his embarrassing role in the Terri Schiavo affair, demonstrated that even he had not taken complete leave of his senses by supporting the bill. But the President threw a sop to the radical fringe in his party, so the entire nation has to suffer." Throwing the sick under the bus is likely to be a big part of the "compassionate conservative" legacy of George W. Bush. And we will probably never know whether his veto was borne of genuine conviction, however misguided, or of Karl Rove's need to mobilize his flock to get to the polls in November. But November is not an opportunity only for Mr. Rove. It is a chance for the nation's flock to show that it's a lot smarter than our president and our craven Congress thinks it is. Let us pray.

Basically you guys are just reaffirming what the rest of the world already thinks about us. Despite all our "talk" about spreading democracy it's just talk. In the reality we'll do what we want to whomever we want and take what we want from whomever we want.....just because we need it.....and we have the power to do it. Nevermind that this situation is of our govt.'s own making. Got it! [link]

They accept G.E.D.s; they always have. I went thru basic during the 1970s and several people in my unit were under 18 and got in with a G.E.D. along with their parents signature. The Army is also getting less and less picky these days. What grade did you finish in high school if you don't mind my asking? HA, HA, chickenhawks always have some health issue or other excuse that keeps them out of harms way; that's a given. I would have bet 100 bucks that you'd come back with a response like that. Right positions: Yes to invitro Yes to embryonic stem-cell research Yes to cloning body parts The first one has already helped people to lead happier lives (they just need to stop being hypocrits about it and support the same for others). The other two show great potential in helping people to lead both healthier and happier lives. All three are right and are ethically humane.

Ted, Pakistan and India have nukes; it's only a matter of time before Iran gets them too. As far as that Iranian leader threatening to wipe out Israel his words were taken out of context. He's not gonna do that, the Mullahs won't allow it and let's face it, it would be suicide for his country. His threatening nature is tantamout to our cowboy wanna-be moron President talking big talk (which he has had to tone down). They're an independent country; it's not our place to tell then what they can and cannot do. And after what our govt has done to the people of that country (via the Shah) I wouldn't take orders from the U.S. govt. either if I were Iranian. I agree Islamic terrorists are dangerous but keep in mind the fundamentalists Chrisitans in this country are chomping at the bit for WWIII because they think Jesus is gonna come back and kill everybody (including the Jews and Muslims) who don't convert to evangelical Christianity. If they get their wish what are they gonna say (if they survive) when nuclear winter hits and Jesus hasn't raptured them up and the world's survivors are either starving or slowly dying from radiation poisioning. There's plenty of nuts to go around and we'd better get a grip and start negotiating......and mean it. Chevon and Exxon surely didn't expect to rule that part of the world forever. They made enough $$ to fill Fort Knox; best to take the money and run now cause it's only a matter of time before Iran and everyone else for that matter bands together and lowers the boom on the U.S. I don't want to see that happen, do you? Our govt better start "making nice". Rome fell and so can we.

Obviously, right and wrong are not as important to you as "might makes right"; "my way or the highway". Off topic again BUT at least you seem to acknowledge that they do need to defend themselves from this country. I answered that [here]; no need for you to put inaccurate words in my mouth. I think I'm a heck of a lot more loyal and patriotic than you are Butero; at least I don't want to see a theocracy steamroll over our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Back on topic: I'm glad to see Schwartznegger take positive action on this issue. I hadn't heard about that thanks for posting the link River. I'm also happy to see that at least two other posters at this board are on the same page with me. Anyone that wants to see Iran have nuclear weapons to "defend itself" from America is a traitor. They have no patriotism whatsoever. You attacked the Shah of Iran and the fact this nation supported him, yet you are fine with the current leader who desires to destroy the nation of Israel having nuclear weapons. As far as what I said about the fact I don't care about our past involvement with Iran in relation to creating some type of even playing field today, this has nothing to do with my way or the highway. Anyone with half a brain in their head that is an American citizen would prefer that our nation be stronger than our enemies. You would have to be a complete kook to feel otherwise, because they could use those weapons against us in the future. Once again, I applaud President Bush for doing the right thing in vetoing the use of my tax dollars to fund embronic stem cell research. It makes me glad I voted for him both times. LOL, You're the traitor not me. I served this country for 2 enlistments as have relatives. For someone who's always talking about biblical values it's become obvious that you lean toward those more cruel and barbaric parts of the bible; not the "love they neightbor as thyself" parts. I've seen no kindness from you about anything on these boards so far; you're like some stern Puritan who sews people's lips together for blasphemy. What a butthead! Here's a suggestion for ya Butero, call your representatives in Washington and ask them to sponsor a bill banning invitro fertilization; see if that one doesn't go over like a turd in the punchbowl! [link] I believe the entire Bible, verses about God's judgement and his love. You on the other hand seem to believe you can pick and choose what parts of scripture to believe. If part is right and part is wrong, that means the love scriptures could be the ones in error and the ones you call "cruel and barbaric could be true. I am thankful you are no longer in the military. We don't need people "serving this country" who desire that Iran be able to defend itself from our own soldiers. You pick and choose more than I do and you're the one who says you believe the dogma of biblical innerrancy! -- You choose the negative; I choose the positive. But then, I think of God as all positive and that's why I worship Him. If we don't invade them they won't have to defend themselves now would they. I don't want to see more of our young soldiers needlessly killed. As for you, I think you should go join up right now; they've raised the enlistment age in the army to 42. You're already a truck driver so you're already trained pretty much to drive a truck over there and it'd only take a day to train on the humm-vee. They used to have the hum-vee instructions in comic book form so anybody could get it right. Anyway, don't forget to call your congressmen and senators about that invitro bann. Let us know what they say. You might even give Sam Brownback a call and see what his response is. Ask him how many miscroscopic embryos he "killed" getting those three kids of his. Be sure and use the word "KILLED" too; you use it here when talking about this issue so use it with the big boys who've actually done it when you talk to them. umkay?

Obviously, right and wrong are not as important to you as "might makes right"; "my way or the highway". Off topic again BUT at least you seem to acknowledge that they do need to defend themselves from this country. I answered that [here]; no need for you to put inaccurate words in my mouth. I think I'm a heck of a lot more loyal and patriotic than you are Butero; at least I don't want to see a theocracy steamroll over our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Back on topic: I'm glad to see Schwartznegger take positive action on this issue. I hadn't heard about that thanks for posting the link River. I'm also happy to see that at least two other posters at this board are on the same page with me. Anyone that wants to see Iran have nuclear weapons to "defend itself" from America is a traitor. They have no patriotism whatsoever. You attacked the Shah of Iran and the fact this nation supported him, yet you are fine with the current leader who desires to destroy the nation of Israel having nuclear weapons. As far as what I said about the fact I don't care about our past involvement with Iran in relation to creating some type of even playing field today, this has nothing to do with my way or the highway. Anyone with half a brain in their head that is an American citizen would prefer that our nation be stronger than our enemies. You would have to be a complete kook to feel otherwise, because they could use those weapons against us in the future. Once again, I applaud President Bush for doing the right thing in vetoing the use of my tax dollars to fund embronic stem cell research. It makes me glad I voted for him both times. LOL, You're the traitor not me. I served this country for 2 enlistments as have relatives. For someone who's always talking about biblical values it's become obvious that you lean toward those more cruel and barbaric parts of the bible; not the "love they neightbor as thyself" parts. I've seen no kindness from you about anything on these boards so far; you're like some stern Puritan who sews people's lips together for blasphemy. What a butthead! Here's a suggestion for ya Butero, call your representatives in Washington and ask them to sponsor a bill banning invitro fertilization; see if that one doesn't go over like a turd in the punchbowl! [link]

Obviously, right and wrong are not as important to you as "might makes right"; "my way or the highway". Off topic again BUT at least you seem to acknowledge that they do need to defend themselves from this country. I answered that [here]; no need for you to put inaccurate words in my mouth. I think I'm a heck of a lot more loyal and patriotic than you are Butero; at least I don't want to see a theocracy steamroll over our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Back on topic: I'm glad to see Schwartznegger take positive action on this issue. I hadn't heard about that thanks for posting the link River. I'm also happy to see that at least two other posters at this board are on the same page with me.

Over 50% of our tax dollars goes toward the military industrial complex; yet when our soldiers get in the field their parents have to try and buy them proper protective gear. (But Rumsfeld says you go to war with what you got). Toilet seats don't cost 500 dollars unless the crooked corporate contractor providing them runs up the price. Somebody is getting filthy rich and we the people, who are footing the bill, are getting very little bang for our buck. This type of research might benefit YOU or someone you love some day. It's not always the other guy, or the other guy's kid that gets horribly sick or maimed, sometimes it happens to you. Think about it.

dude' i can't believe you're actually an american. whose side are u on? Dude, I believe in telling the truth; people don't like the truth though. True patriotism should involve telling the truth, admitting when you're in the wrong and working from there to make it better next time. -- Our so-called "crisis" with Iran didn't happen overnight, it began 50 yrs ago when our govt butted into their business. Lunacy is when you think you can do that and not have it bomerang back on you. "Might does not make right" as American colonists proved to the world's superpower Great Britain 225 yrs ago. Iran won't be bombed back to the stone age; too much oil. BTW - You guys can all verify what I'm telling you for yourselves. It's not like it's some big secret. It's documented historical fact. Surely you don't fall for that line that the terrorists hate us for our freedom do you? Maybe you don't get this Anti-Hillbilly, but nobody cares about these facts. Even if America made mistakes leading to the problems we face today, I am not wanting nations like Iran to have nuclear weapons to protect them from America. How utterly absurd. This sounds like the type of rubbish they promote on Air America. We need to make sure that Iran never has nuclear weapons, and I don't care about our past relations with the Shaw. At least he was on friendly terms with this country, which is why we backed him, but even if that was not the case, as an American I am not neutral on such things. I don't look at the world and take sides with other countries over America because I think we did them wrong. I will always side with this nation. I might support changes in policies at times if I think we are going down the wrong road, but will never take sides with other countries. I am thankful your thinking is not predominant in the military. I want soldiers who actually take this countries side during times of war. In addition, I think this type of misguided thinking should show everyone why we don't want liberals running this country. I don't think you side with this country; you said yourself you want to see it become a theocracy. I thought that was one of the things we disliked about Muslim countries. The Shah was a brutal dictator and he treated his own people awful while catering to American oil interests. You amaze me with your arrogance sometimes.

To speed it up and have more oversight. I pay taxes and I'd prefer my tax dollars be spent on this as opposed to other things my tax dollars get spent on like foreign aid and faith based iniatives. Tax dollars get spent on lots of things why not spend it where it'll do the most good for the most people.

That's it, attack my credibility because you know you're wrong about THIS subject. Why does that not surprise me. -- What I said on the other thread about Iran was true and verifiable. [link] [link] [link] I guess some people have a problem with the awful truth. Anyway our military is stretched thin in Iraq it wouldn't be in our best interest to engage in another conflict. I find nothing you say to be credible because you're too authoritarian and tyrannical. So ignore me and I'll ignore you. Now let's stick to the topic of THIS thread.

You're the one that likes to side step and talk, and talk, and talk. You obviously don't know much about this kind of research or you would realise that cancer and heart disease are two of the diseases they might be able to cure or find better treatments for. The democrats see the astronomical potential here for everyday people and helping this research along will of course help them politically too..... Especially when the republicans are opposing it for political reasons only; not moral reasons. Like I said, if they really thought the destruction of microscopic embryos was immoral they would introduce a bill to ban invitro altogether. That'd take care of that. (I get tired of repeating myself for you Butero). http://stemcells.nih.gov/research/scilit/h...hlights2004.asp http://www.fda.gov/cber/genetherapy/celltherapyheart.htm Now, you could have looked that up for yourself. I think they should pursue all types of stem-cell research and even pursue cloning body parts. Can you imagine growing a new heart or kidney instead of "praying" for a transpant donor (praying that somebody else dies so you can get theirs.)

Yes I did; post #11. If he doesn't believe "in it" then he and his wife shouldn't have gotten doctors to "create life, only to destroy life" (as they refer to it) in a petrie dish themselves.... because that's what happens with invitro fertilization. On average 24 embryos are created and you're lucky if you get one, maybe two babies from it. All 24 normally wouldn't "take" anyway but most are just destroyed because people don't want 10 or 15 babies they only want one or two. I'm all for people being able to do this to get pregnant but I don't think they should get on their high horses and talk like they've gotten some blessing from God (who made them barren in the first place) then turn around and comdemn researchers, and their supporters, who want to use their "leftovers" to find a "blessed cure" for other people and other people's kids. Those double standards really tick me off especially when I can guarantee you that if cures are found in the future these same people will get them as needed along with everybody who did support the research. I'm a hillbilly that doesn't like GWB anymore and someone on another forum called me an anti-christ for that view. Then another poster said they'd never heard of a hillbilly that didn't like Dubya and did that make me an anti-hillbilly (making a joke because of the anti-christ remark). SOooo, it's a joke not a jab. That's because research takes time and money and this has only been around since, I think, 1998. Remember you've said that. Someday if you or one of your children gets a disease that they've found a cure for using this type of research then you can stick to your guns and refuse it. Butero - We've been round and round on this issue. I could give you a hundred reasons and your response would still be the same, "You haven't given me one good reason". It wouldn't matter to you if the govt did earmark the money specifically for the American cancer, heart, diabetes, parkinsons, aids, paralyzed people associations... you'd still be against it especially if they wanted to use those doomed embryonic dots. -- Personally I think that wasted 300 billion for Iraq would have went a long way toward finding some cures or just being used to treat these diseases and injuries but of course the more militant among us don't believe in good health or good health care as much as they believe in the business of war.

Anyone with any sense knows the only reason Democrats keep fighting for the government to use our tax money to pay for the destruction of life to supposedly, maybe, some day in the future find a cure for some type of ailments is because they are trying to appease the misguided anti-life zealots in their base and to try to get a few votes here and there. Once again I ask the question, why should the government pay for such research over research into heart disease or cancer treatments considering more people are effected. If Democrats really are concerned with saving lives, why not use tax money to support research in areas such as these where their wouldn't be the controversy? The government should pay for it because it's the right thing to do. Using 300 billion taxpayer dollars to fund a war with Iraq that we shouldn't be in is the wrong thing to do. I'm pro-life; I belief that is a concept that applies to the born as well as the pre-born. These microscopic embryos are not people yet nor should they be in the same category as those growing in the womb or those who have diseases and afflictions that need correcting. Evidently the republicans don't see these embryos as being on the same footing either. Sam Brownback was touting his three invitro children while this debate was going on. How many of these microscopic embryos did he flush in the process? Probably 40-60; the same with the President and First Lady. If the republicans viewed these embryos as being fully human then they wouldn't be messing around with this bill; they'd introduce one that bans all invitro fertilization. That'll never happen because they're hypocrits and they also know too many of their zealous base needs invitro to get pregnant when God gives them a barren womb. It's one of those, "do as I say, not as I do" type of things.

Wow, thanks for letting me know I don't have any sense. Considering the alternative. So you think he vetoed this bill out of the "goodness of his heart" and not for political reasons? So you think he has absolutely no morals and can't actually believe he is doing the right thing? But I'll answer yours; this was pure politics. I don't think he has high morals; I think he does what's good for him politically.

Wow, thanks for letting me know I don't have any sense. Considering the alternative. So you think he vetoed this bill out of the "goodness of his heart" and not for political reasons? So you think he has absolutely no morals and can't actually believe he is doing the right thing? You didn't answer my question.

Wow, thanks for letting me know I don't have any sense. Considering the alternative. So you think he vetoed this bill out of the "goodness of his heart" and not for political reasons?

I wonder how many microscopic embryos President Bush and First Lady Laura destroyed while trying to get pregnant with their twins??? He doesn't care about life, before or after birth as far as I can tell. The only reason he vetoed this bill was to appease the misguided zealots who make up his base....... and everybody with any sense knows it. [link]

That's like one paragraph. What is that source? What do the initials IDF stand for? Israel Defense Forces Thanks. Okay; things that make you go hmmmm?