SoulGrind

The only set of 10 commandments I know of is the OT - the first set broke when Moses threw them at the crowd at the base of Mt. Sinai. So God created a second set. Same commandments - different stones. And what does this have to do with the Christian "moral" code that the United States legal system is based upon? I don't see us putting out right hand on Hammurabi's bible in a court of law. To be honest - I do not know (at this time). But I am sure some scouring of the scriptures would reveal these answers. If anyone already knows the Biblical passages that refer to oral sex and sodomy, please quote them, otherwise I will post them later if I can find them - I know there is a passage instructing us to avoid sodomy - And knowing that we have thousands of different bacteria the live in the rectum, I would have to agree that God knew what he was doing when he said to not use that orofice for sexual intercourse. I would truly have a hard time believing that you would be banned so long as the conversation lacked vulgarity, and secular slang in regards to body parts. The minute you do that, then you are no longer using the same language I am using.

I appologize - I'm getting a bit of a salty mouth here...

Oh my gosh! Do I have to spell it out for you? Ok - We have two football teams... Team 1 decides they don't like the quarterback of Team 2, so they send a linebacker to take him out. Who does this hurt? Team 2 or the the quarterback of Team 2? Obviously it hurts the quarterback, but more importantly, it hurts the TEAM! So yes, when you attack one Christian, you attack them all (the Family, the Team, the Church, etc.) Jeese Blooee Louise! What part of this don't you understand? It's absolutly amazing you can understand the "theory of evolution", but not such a simple concept of hurt me, hurt my family. Did common sense die off during the evolutionary process?

Satan must be getting nervous - and the best part - even he doesn't know when God plans to return! Talk about your ultimate surprise attack! Glory to God!

AMEN TO THAT POST!

So let me ask you this - since it's not personal. What if I killed your kids (or any family member for that matter)? Would you take it personally? Why should you - I didn't attack you...

Oh that is lame - "I'm attacking it because I don't know how to attack anything else." We're you a bully as a kid - Beating up those smaller than you because all the bigger kids beat up on you? That's what this kind of mentality sounds like. So by this token, I can infer that if you get a bad burger at a McDonalds restaurant, ALL mcDonalds restaurants must be bad, and therefore, the word must be spread as such. The problem here is, it doesn't acknowledge the fact that the isolated cases do not typically outwieght the norms. So based on that, how can such a position even be substantiated? Defending one's beliefs is a good thing. But, if Creationism is being taught ALONGSIDE Evolution (I am assuming this is what you are truly getting at), then what's the issue? There is no favoritism here - it's offering up both sides of the coin - and this is something every Junior High Schooler learns to do when they write their first English essay - supply both sides of the argument. Why should this be any different? I can understand if only one viewpoint was taught - that would be out of line - but teaching both aspects is true to any good teaching - this allows the student to decide for themselves. Sounds to me like Athiests are wanting it to be one-sided in their favor, where Christians seek a balance - teach BOTH. As for your so called "Christian morality" - I hate to inform you, but you're living in a society governed by "Christian morality." Examine the evidence: Is it a crime to steal? Yes or No? Is it a crime to commit murder? Yes or No? Is it a crime to bear false testimony (in a court of law)? Yes or No? The answer to each of these is a resounding YES. Where did these laws originate from? The original moral code - the 10 Commandments - the BIBLE! However, 3 out of 10 isn't very strict in terms of society - therefore, you truly are getting off easy - could you imagine if you were being sentenced to jail for sleeping with your best friend's wife because you "Committed Adultery?" Imagine that! Yet you are free from the majority of the Christian moral code. But let's analyse more of it for kicks and grins anyway: Do you think it's right to sleep with someone else's wife? Yes or No? If you answered NO, then by default, you agree with the 10 Commandments - that Christian moral code you dislike so much. But if you answered YES, then ask yourself this: Would you like it if you caught your girlfriend/wife sleeping with another man? Yes or No? If you say yes, then you're one kinky fellow! And that is your perogotive to be perverse. But for Christians, this is not allowed. Regardless, you are unaffected by it - unless you become Christian. As for homosexuality - let's look at this from a "mechanical" viewpoint. If you have a stereo system, you obviously have many wires and cables. Each one has "male" and "female" parts. They were designed to "fit" together. It's rather logical if you ask me. If you have a car, you fill the gas tank up by plugging the pump hose into the gas filler neck. When you drive, exhaust comes out the tailpipe. You wouldn't fill you car up from the tailpipe - it has no benefit. You wouldn'texpect exhaust to come out the filler neck - that would impose a problem. The human gentiles have a specific (intelligent) design and purpose. The penis was designed to penetrate the vagina. The anus was designed as an exhaust pipe. If we analyse the "plumbing" (you're taking a biology class, so you know what I am saying is true), then we realize the truth of these statements. As for the moral implecations of homosexuality - it's quite obviousl from a mechanical standpoint as to why it "shouldn't" be done. And if the "designer" didn't intend for the mechanics to behave in such a fashion, then why are we trying to force it to work that way? I'm sure the mechanic is shaking his head sayin "You imbecile - that doesn't go THERE! It wasn't designed to do that!"

And this has to do with what? Regardless, the largest recorded earthquake in the world was a magnitude 9.5 (Mw) in Chile on May 22, 1960. Hawaii was a 6.3 in magnitude. That's only 3.2 lower than the largest ever recorded. According to the USGS, the following are the earthquake magnitude classes: Great: Magnitude is equal to or greater than 8.0 Major: Magnitude is between 7.0 and 7.0 Strong: Magnitude is between 6.0 and 6.9 Moderate: Magnitude is between 5.0 and 5.9 Light: Magnitude is between 4.0 and 4.9 Minor: Magnitude is between 3.0 and 3.9 Micro: Magnitude is anything less than 3.0 Therefore, Hawaii was in the top 3. That is still cause for concern. My position stands. Sources: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/

I am curious about something... maybe some non-believers, specifically the "Athiests" can shed some light on this for me. Being a Christian, I understand that according to scripture, I am to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. This is known as "The Great Commission" "...And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" [Matthew 28:18-20 - KJV] It is up to the recipient of the Good News to either accept it or reject it. A clear choice is required. Now, from what I know of true "Athiesism" (which admittedly, isn't much on my behalf), I do not understand why Athiests are so eager to attack Christianity with such fervor. There are so many different religions in the world, yet Christianity is the target of choice. Why? In a country of religious tolerances, freedom of religion, we Christians tolerate non-believers - it doesn't stop us from telling people about our faith, but if a person really isn't interested, that's their choice. But it "seems" as if Athiests take it upon themselves to butt into everything Christians say and do. Why would you do this in a society based on religious tolerances? We Christians tolerate your right not to believe. We may not agree with it, but we tolerate it. Why is it that Athiests do not tolerate our right to believe? We don't force you into our churches. You are not forced to listen to our music. You are not forced to read our literature. You are not forced to go see religious-minded movies (Narnia, the Passion, etc,) You are not forced to believe what we believe. So why such intolerance towards Christianity, yet show tolerance towards other world religions (such as Islam, Muslim, Hindu, Budha, etc.)? I would love to hear your side of the story. Thanks.

That's not a true statement. Keep in mind, the Bible is like any other historical reference. The claims the Bible makes for itself can be backed up through testing against archaeological, historical, and cultural evidence. Furthermore, much of the Levitical laws are supported with recent (within the past 2000 years) findings in areas of biology, astronomy, and mathematics. Therefore, in light of the evidence from non-Biblical sources, we can easily see the Bible is historically accurate in regards to the names, places, and events that took place. We also see that because of the scientific evidence presented, that the Bible was ahead of its time with respect to a culture that new nothing of modern science. Therefore, we can conclude that because the Bible is accurate on ALL accounts, this points out the truthful nature of the Biblical writings. From this we can conclude that if the Bible is accurate in regards to the natural world, it must be accurate in regards to the supernatural world, for how else would a primitive society from 3000 years past be able to apply various "laws" that have a modern day, scientific explanation for them? Purely by chance and coincidence? That's a bit of a stretch if you ask me. From this we see that the Bible has divine authorship and since the Bible has proven itself on all other fronts, and the Bible states it was

To the believer (i.e.: to have exclusive faith in Jesus Christ) prayer is very real and very powerful. To the non-believer, prayer is irrelevant. However, I am here to attest that God DOES answer prayer! Allow me to state my case... As we all know, on Sunday, October 15th, 2006, around 7:07 AM, an earthquake measuring 6.3 on the Richter scale struck Hawaii 10 miles north-by-northwest of Kailua Kona, a town on the west coast of the "Big Island" (Hawaii). By comparison, the California earthquake of April 18, 1906 ranks as one of the most significant earthquakes of all time resulting in hundreds of deaths and immense amounts of damage. It was felt for hundred of miles around. I heard about the Hawaii earthquake on Sunday by way of another friend who works for a local newspaper. She gave me the specifics of the quake - location, magnitude, and distance that the quake was felt from originating the source. At that time, there was not much more to tell. A good friend of mine, a girl I met in High School a little over 16 years ago is currently vacationing on the "Big Island" of Hawaii. Her and her boyfriend departed last week from San Francisco and I have not heard from her since. With the news of the earthquake, my friend has been on my mind. I started praying for her safety. I asked members of Worthy Board to pray for both the state of Hawaii as well as my friend. Last night on the 10-o'clock news, the latest update on the Hawaii earthquake is that there were no fatalities, no real damage, and very few injuries (if any). Now I know non-believer's will say this is just coincidental, or something about the "natural way of things", blah blah blah. However, as will all things related to "mother nature" - we never truly realize the outcome until AFTER "mother nature" is done throwing her temper tantrum. The prayers were going out long before we had definitive results of the event. Therefore, when we found out that the event passed and without calamity, this, in my mind, justifies the power of prayer and I know that my friend is safe from harm, for God has delivered her, as well as the rest of the inhabitants of Hawaii. For those who do not believe - this probably doesn't amount to much more than religious "lip service." But for those of us who do believe, it just confirms and solidifies the following statements found in the Christian Bible: "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." [Matthew 21:22 - KJV] "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." [Matthew 17:20 - KJV] "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." [Matthew 18:19-20 - KJV] BUT BE WARNED! "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." [James 4:3 - KJV] We need to ask with fear and trembling before God in full humility and purity of heart with good and righteous intentions. Anything less will not be answered as it is not the will of God. That my friends, is the power of prayer! Glory to God most High! AMEN!

Is the Old testament Historically Accurate? Does it Matter? - From "Can Archaeology Prove the Old Testament", Ralph O. Muncaster, Harvest House Publishers, 2000 The Bible presents itself as fact, In matters of history, it claims to present historical fact. In communication from God (that is, prophecy, instruction, or judgement), it also claims to be factual. In order to trust the Bible, it's important to be able to trust that it is accurate and true. The Bible is unique among holy books in that it commands its readers to "test everything" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). "...Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [1 Thessalonians 5:21 - KJV] Does that mean "test" the Bible itself, as well? In a sense, yes - at least to the point of knowing that it is truly inspired by God. Once we realize God has inspired the Bible, we can trust even the difficult-to-understand parts, since God would not make mistakes. Why would the Bible command us to perform such a test? Very simply, to set itself apart from other books claiming to be from God. "Blind faith" can lead people to trust in the wrong source for truth. Other holy books claim to be historical - but without giving evidence of it. Or they claim to be divinely inspired - without real "proof" of inspiration (for example, without the evidence of fulfilled prophecy). Emotional techniques sometimes use "feelings" that are claimed to be evidence. Or a religion might use philosophical arguments to claim its holy book is true. But if something is really from God, wouldn't it be accurate? The Bible is. Wouldn't God provide evidence of His authorship? The Bible does. It contains historical evidence demonstrated to be fact; it is translated from reliable manuscripts; and it provides a trustworthy guide for archaeology. Evidence of divine authorship is also abundant in the Bible, with hundreds of fullfilled prophecies, scientific insights, and examples of concealed evidence. The accuracy of the Old Testament is vital to the Bible's Message. 1.) It reveals the power, nature, and expectations of God 2.) It demonstrates our need for a Savior 3.) It defines God's plan of redemption 4.) It verifies the Bible's divine inspiration (by perfect, precise prophecy) 5.) It promises the coming of Jesus Christ 6.) It confirms Jesus as the Messiah (through perfectly fullfilled prophecy) Achaeology provides one means of confirming the historical accuracy of the Bible. Only a century ago, some people thought modern archaeology would prove the Bible false. Instead, investigation has verified many of its historical accounts to the smallest detail. Some of the Bible's greatest skeptics have become it's greatest supporters. And the Bible is routinely used as an archaeological resource. Thankfully, I have a vast library of resources from which to draw upon, and I am willing to take the time to present the evidence in support of the Bible. While I personally am no archaeologist myself, it is however an interest of mine, along with history, science, technology, and of course, apologetics. The above quote sets the stage - so far, it hasn't proven anything. It's sole purpose is to define our goals - "To supply evidence in support of the Biblical accounts through the use of non-Biblical references." To back this claim up Biblically, I must refer to the following passage of scripture: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" [1 Peter 3:15 - KJV] I suppose this should have really been my first post on this thread - but no matter, at least it's here.

I am intending this particular thread to be more of an informational resource than anything. However, at some point in time I'm sure it's bound to fire up some lively debate (as is the nature of the Apologetics forums here on Worthy Boards). I would like to subject this thread to a couple of "rules" (or guidelines if you will). In holding true to good literary practice of submitting "evidence" in support of the Biblical account, please reference the work from which it was derived and the authorship of that work so the findings can be verified. Obviously we must also abide by the rules set forth by Worthy Boards in order to remain in good standing with the moderators. Since I am starting this thread, I will offer up the first piece of information that I have found. I recently purchased a new Bible, the "Archaeological Study Bible", in the NIV translation, published by Zondervan Press, 2005. Zondervan acknowledges several contributors of information to this Bible such as the University of Cambridge, England, The University of Texas at Austin, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, Harvard University, and many others. The list is long and distinguished in both secular and non-secular circles. Suffice it to say, this should satisfy even the most discriminating non-believer for sources of unbiased, historical, cultural, geographical, and archaeological information available today. Without further ado... Evidence for Serug, Nahor, and Terah According to the Old Testament the patriarchs original homeland was in south-central Turkey, in an area known as Aram Naharaim (Genesis 24:10) or Paddan-Aram (Genesis 25:20). Among the genealogical names of individuals listed in Genesis 11, three - Serug, Nahor, and Terah - have survived from antiquity as the names of towns in this region. The names of these Biblical characters have been preserved in the very area from which the Bible specifies the patriarchs to have originated. Serug, Abram's (Abraham) great-grandfather, fathered Nahor at age 30 and died at age 230 (Genesis 11:22-23). His name, which corresponds to the place called Sargi in Assyrian inscriptions of the seventh century B.C., lives on as modern S

Ah - but you assume that the research is strictly Biblical in nature - when in actuality, it is much broader than that - it is historical, archaelogical, scientific, etc. Please, don't assume that because I did not say "what" I research that it is limited to just scriptural references. I do know that about other Christians are quite enthusiastic about doing such research - one only need to look to the author Josh McDowell for a prime example of someone who employs both scriptural and secualr references in his essays. If this were not the case, then yes, I would agree with you that this would be a biased attempt at research. Faith is a particular aspect of Christianity - however, we are called not to have blind faith - and it is sad that so many Christians do have blind faith - as stated previously, we are called to use our minds and to test the spirits. When you debate a Christian who uses circular reasoning based soley on scripture in reference to secular scriticism, then yes, this is extremely frustrating. And believe me, it's just as frustrating (if not moreso) between Christians who are at odds.

khalou - sometimes we need to take a step back - even from apologetics. Apologetics is just "defending the faith". Just keep in mind, it's man against man - in other words, imperfect man against imperfect man trying to defend their faith in an imperfect manner. It is difficult at times - I have been smacked down so many times by evolutionsists and athiests who present very strong arguments against Christianity. But it is my faith in Christ that strengthens me. So with God's help, I pick myself back up, I study up, and I try again. Unlike some Christians, I do believe science is a good thing - without science, we wouldn't have electricity, we wouldn't have air travel, we wouldn't have modern medicine, we wouldn't have an international space station, we wouldn't have these new fangled gizmos called computers by which to communicate with, etc. Here is what I believe about science. Science explains the natural world (that God created) around us. To many athiests are trying to use science to disprove God. You cannot prove or disprove God in a laboratory test tube. God's way to big for that. Science however is really good at describing the way things work around us. But ask yourself... just because science explains away how something works, does it explain the existance of God and does it rule out thepossibility that maybe, just maybe, this is the way God intended the universe to work?

This is where having faith, the size of a grain of a mustard seed comes into play. If you are willing to take that first step in acknowledging you are a sinner (just like me and everyone else in this world), and repent (which means to say you're sorry for the sin and to turn your back to sin), and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you can be saved. This does not mean life gets any easier. It does not mean you will win the lottery. It doesn't even mean you have an immediate, full understanding of the Bible. I've been reading the Bible for 33 years and I am still dumb-founded by a lot of it. This is where fellowship with other believers comes into play - but as you already know, this can be dicey. This is why prayerful study of the Word is essential. God reveals to us His will through His Word. When you know the Word, you can walk into a church and you will know if you are being fed ambrosia salad or sour grapes. The same goes for people. There are some who talk a good game - hellfire and brimstone, yadda yadda yadda... but what does their walk look like? God says to "test the spirits" - in other words - we are not expected to charge into the enemy camp blindly - we are expected to have faith based on God's Word. We cannot expect man to live up to God's expectations. Even I could be steering you wrong - this is why it is so very important that you read God's Word to find out for yourself. Then, if I said something contrary to the Word - you would have the knowlege to rebuke me. I will help you any way I can and answer what I can - I'm not saying what I can do will be perfect or meet your expectations - but I'd rather prove myself as a brother of the world to you and hopefully, should the Lord bring you back into the fold, a brother in Christ as well. And, as is the way of the believer, I shall continue to pray for you.

Oh my - you DO ask the hard questions. First off, let me tell you what I believe. I believe the Bible, whether literal, metaphor, etc. is the inerrant, infallible, absolutely, 100% true, without a shadow of a doubt Word of God. I also believe that by whatever "method" that man came into being is because God willed it. As for a more in-depth viewpoint on Creation vs Evolution... There is a great essay written by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart. It is contained within the book entitled "Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity" - ISBN 0-8423-5287-2 Another book, written by the same authors is "Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About The Christian Faith" - ISBN 0-8423-0021-X I own both of these books and if you are interested in either of these books, they can be found in most Christian bookstores or on Amazon.com. However, if you are unable to afford or purchase these books, send me a personal message with your mailing address and I will GLADLY send you my copies so that you may read the evidence for yourself. Although I am a Christian (and have been for many, many years) - I too still have questions and moments of of doubt. You are not alone.

A question for you then - why did you abandon your faith after 40 years? I too have seen plenty of hypocrits in the church - but we are also called to uphold the faith. I guess my true question is, did you have faith in Christ or did you have faith in the people who make up the church? Faith in Christ is not a let down - but faith in people can be - and that goes for those who are non-believers as well as believers. I can't imagine giving up my faith in Christ just because other Christians around me aren't walking the talk. I know it's a let down, but at the same time, it gives me strength to know that my faith is placed in Christ - not in man. I'd really be interested in hearing why you are so jaded towards Christianity when it really sounds like your jaded against certain believers and not really towards Christ. Am I wrong here?

Quite the contrary - Read on... Wrong again - not ALL Christian scholars hold to this belief - Read on... No one has said you were right either - Read on... Here is an essay outlining the differences in opinion about the authorship of the first five books of the Bible Edit Link* As you shall see, there are those who stand firm on the authorship of Moses, and there are those who do not. It is a coin toss in the theological community - however, after reading the evidence, I can't help but agree that Moses is indeed the original author.

The Gospel writers never said anything that was NOT true! The Word of God is infallible. AMEN (and thank God) for that!

Which "things" do you refer to? Please provide evidence to support your statement. You are quite wrong - there are MANY times I've had to answer both believers and non-believers with "I don't know." We are finite man - we are incapable of knowing eveything there is to know - especially concerning the "thoughts" (for a lack of a better word) of God that have yet to be revealed to us.

I apologize if my point was not very clear in my previous message. I used the term "brother" as a unifying term among mankind - we are all of the human race - therefore, we are all brothers. I do not claim that Khalou is a brother in Christ - by his own admission, he is not. I did not intend to point fingers at anyone in particular - my point was simply to say that as Christians, we need to act like Christ to show the way for those who do not know Christ. In light of Khalou's statement about how he feels many (so-called) Christians do not walk-the-talk, I would have to agree. I have been privy to such people myself (here on Worthy Boards and offline as well). And as previously stated, I too have been guilty of this sin at times. If we all take a quick inner look at ourselves, I think we can all honestly agree that there are times in our lives when each and everyone of us have not been very Christ-like - and who knows what kind of an effect this may have had on someone who has witnessed our actions. I never meant so sound "judgmental" or "chastising". Just affirming our main goal - to be Christ-like in our walk and spread the gospel accordingly. This is all I was trying to point out.

AMEN Brother khalou! While you are an admitted atheist, and I am an admitted Christian - I do believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!!!! I would like to take a moment to clarify something however from a doctrinal standpoint. What we (obviously) experience in reality is very different however. You said, "But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview..." One thing to keep in mind, as Christians, we are not supposed to pass judgment. We are called to spread the "Good News" of Christ. This is achieved by the following: 1.) Testifying about what God has done for us (this is called testimony/witnessing). This is an area that most Christians seem to forget - we're not called to be "Bible Thumpers". We as Christians recognize the good works of God, therefore we are a WITNESS. Then as Christians, we are to tell the world what we have "witnessed" - this is our TESTIMONY. Now the question is, how do we get people's attention so that ask "What's different about this person?" 2.) Good works The Bible says that faith without works is dead. As Christian's we are not only called to give a testimony, but we are called to "walk to talk". According to the Bible, you can recognize a fellow Christian by the "fruit" they bear - in other words - are they backing their faith up with good works? This is where you, khalou, have pointed out that "...if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians." Honestly, I have no choice but to agree with you. Even I, as a Christian admit to having done things that do not speak well of the doctrine of Christ. In fact, the majority of so-called Christians in this world don't bear the fruit of the spirit. And as an outsider, you are keenly aware of this. It's no wonder that in the day of Christ and of the Apostle Paul that there were so many converts in favor of the Christian faith. If we read about the life of Christ and the life of Paul, they were setting the example for ALL Christian's to follow. And it was a very good example. It's the kind of thing that turned heads and made people stop and think "Hmmm... Maybe there is something to this Christian thing after all." But in today

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that. None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell. k As we know, Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). As we can see here, from the book of Deuteronomy, we have mention of HELL "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." [Deuteronomy 32:22 - KJV] As we know, David is the author of the book of Psalms. The King James Bible mentions HELL seven times in the book of Psalms. In fact, HELL is mentioned a total of 31 times in the Old Testament (King James) and as we know, the Old Testament is the Jewish (Hebrew) Bible. Also, the Jews do believe in a coming Messiah - the problem however is they did not believe that Jesus was that Messiah. Please, oh please, do a little research before making such statements. You don't even need to read the Bible to find such answers - just look in a concordance.

This is going to be a tough post to answer - so many areas to quote. But I shall do my best. ;-) You are right, the acceptance of choice Christ does require a choice to me made. So therefore, if you do not make a choice, you obviously have not chosen Christ, and therefore, according to Christ's own words, "If you are not for Christ, you are against Him". Now, to the point of unborn babies and children without spiritual knowledge, or the hypothetical (though unlikely chance) of a person being born in such a remote place that no chance of the gospel could ever reach them... We have to trust in the fact that God is "all-knowing and just" and therefore, through His grace, judgement is cast aside in favor of pro life so such people may live. I do not know of any scripture to substantiate this thought directly - however, what we know of God's character - Righteousness, Holyness, Justness, and Love and Grace - I can't help but think that He would provide asylum for those such as these. There are a couple of scriptures that lead me to believe this - while they are not in direct relation to these thoughts, it's something to ponder and inquire of somemore more learned in theology than I am. These verses I refer to are: "...14 But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for to such belongs the Kingdom of Heaven."" - [Matthew 19:14 - BBE] This verse tells me that Children (those who are innocent, blameless, and pure of heart are cherished by God). Yes, God does say we are born into sin, but it is also by God's grace that we are saved - so I would like to believe that God's grace would be applied here. I know this is not support directly in scripture, but I think it can be "gleaned" - like I said - someone who has been steeped in theology might do a better job at addressing this issue. "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?" - [Matthew 6:26 - KJV] Once again, support of this thought - God views man even more important than the animals and if God takes care of the animals, how much more will he do for us? I guess if we want to get blunt about it, then yes. If it's not of God, then it's of the devil. Once again, in regards to our hypothetical person who is ignorant of such things, we have to take it on faith that God will exercise judgment and grace accordingly. We must also recall that God says he has laid it upon our hearts a knowledge of good and evil, therefore, each person born into this world, while being born of sin, has an internal, subconscience knowledge of right from wrong. Ultimately, the final decision for the fate of this person is in God's hands. Once again, you are correct in stating that the world is not all black and white. However, we need to keep in mind that we are not discussing a worldly viewpoint, but a spiritual viewpoint set in place by God, therefore, it is black and white. Scripture is crystal clear on the point - there's only one way into Heaven. Through repentance of sin and absolute faith in Jesus Christ. Regarding the "moral gray" are you speak of - this is man's moral code - not God's moral code. We must be careful not to confuse the two. Scripture states for everything there is a season. A time to live, a time to die, a time for war, a time for peace. However, we are commanded not to kill - this of course is in regards to murder - not war. Once again, we need to have faith that God will exercise justice or grace as deemed appropriate according to God's perfect law. The problem here is we are trying to justify the crime based on our human idea of "severity" - however, according to God, sin is sin. It's like a light bulb, it's either on or it's off. Even a light with a dimmer switch is still on or off, even if it's dim or if it's bright. God says sin is punishable by death - however, the point you keep forgetting is GRACE - you keep trying to apply man's imperfect morality to God's perfect morality. God's grace is what keeps us from paying the ultimate fine - our lives with death to reside in Hell for eternity. And it makes no difference how "petty" we think something is. In God's perfect world - there is no crime. However, man has been seperated from God's perfect world and therefore has become "tainted" thereby giving us an altered view of morality. God does not damn anyone to Hell. We damn ourselves. We have been shown the path to salvation. It's the only path. It's up to us to walk down that path. We have free will to do so. If we choose any other path than the one that has been lit before us by God, we have chosen our own fate. And as stated before, we must have FAITH that the GRACE OF GOD will be served to those who never had a chance. The scripture does not state God will show grace and mercy upon these people, but scripture does not say God will not exhibit mercy and grace upon these individuals either. Therefore, we must look at scripture to reveal the true nature of God and realize that while God hates sin and those who do sin without reptant hearts, we must also realize He is a God of Love, of Mercy, and of GRACE. Keep in mind, lack of understanding on our part does not declare falability on God's part. If God is perfect, and we are imperfect, how can we honestly measure anything by the standards we set? We cannot. Therefore, we must use the standards that God has set, and even then, we fall short due to our imperfections. Just another reason we need faith. To me, it seems rather silly to trust in something fallable (man) when there is something so perfect (God).