khalou

Yes, it doesn't come naturally--that is why it is a command from Jesus Himself, the one with all authority---and it is a behaviour we can only do by the power of the Holy Spirit. Before the Holy Spirit came, we had the Son: same person! Those who heard the command from Jesus' own lips would certainly have been surprised by it, as it was not in the commandments given to Moses, but they would have been spurred on to obedience by the Son Himself! I know, I sure would have, if I was sitting at His feet and He told me that! When are you going to answer the post that's presented without going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said? I said that 'Love your enemy' is an ancient concept that pre-dates Christ. You, in your incredibly ignorant response, say that Jesus said it, I believe it, and that settles it. How does that even begin to address my question? The concept PRE-DATES Christ's words. Might that not mean that "Love your enemy' might come naturally by observation? k Well, I could concede that the concept was there, because God wants us to do that, ultimately, but the command came from Jesus Christ. It was excluded from morality, as only loving those who loved you back was the norm. Jesus added to the commandments in order to enforce what God originally wanted, which Israel had watered down or misinterpreted over the centuries. When Jesus made these now commands, people were flabbergasted...so it was unheard of, which is why I believe that it was a new concept with Jesus Christ. PS: Why do you suggest that I go off on tangents? We can only do so much in here! Because you don't address what is brought up. But you certainly did this time- While other great minds were saying that love your enemy is a good idea, the Hebrews were killing theirs because God told them to. God did not love His enemies at the time. Not only the soldiers, but the women and children and the unborn. Yet, in Asia, there were concepts that would have made Jesus proud. Of course, these were the very people that would contribute to the Hebrew's concepts of an even greater enemy in Lucifer- the Devil. The God of the ancient Hebrews didn't seem to know about this evil person yet, and all of His killing was done against human enemies. Can anyone here explain that? k

This is getting incredibly boring now! Atheists are atheists because they refuse to see the evidence before them, and when presented with it, they choose to deny it. Game over. I'd like you to point to this evidence. k

Sure, but if there's not a god then he was right and he gave freedom back to those people. What's your point? The point is this, to put it succinctly: As a non-believer, why try and convince everyone that there is no God? As an athiest, boiled down to it's simplest form, you basically believe in: Nothing If you are correct, and there is, nothing, you have nothing to worry about. We will all die, there won't be anything after this, and you have wasted your breath and everyone's time, including your own. Conversely, if you are wrong, (and you are) and there is a God, who sent His Son, Jesus to this world to die on the cross, and be risen back to life, (which He was) and give salvation and eternal life with Him to those who accept Him as their Savior, you have some serious, serious problems and it is a choice you will regret for eternity. Pascal's Wager. Look it up. k

May I ask what is the Divine fount of this Wisdom? Sincerely does your Truth Trump the Truth of God Himself? You've fallen prey to Relativism. Your Truth has now become equivalent to the Truth of God Himself and any other Truth. Yet God commanded Adam not to eat from the Tree. Why? Because he became a God unto himself. As the Serpent has said; Ge

I feel so sorry that you can't see that my beliefs might have merit! Have fun living your closed-minded life! How can you be so...... arrogant? Condescending? Pigheaded? What is wrong with you, that you cannot debate in an honest fashion without calling the other side tools of Satan? Why waste my time debating with people who are not interested in finding Salvation? It's not me who is pig-headed. I am wearing the pearls, and I am keeping them! Excuse me, I am off to have some fun now---and maybe introduce someone to Jesus in the meantime---someone who wants the answers in life! Since I'm an atheist, I can say that you are an evil person. I would never say that as a Christian, because the parameters of evil are supernatural, but since we are the only one's here, I believe that you are evil. You lie to everyone and say that you believe in the words of Christ, yet you act otherwise in more pride than I've seen in any other person I've ever read. You belittle the honest presentation of ideas by atheists that have been nothing but respectful to your religion, and don't even come close to answering simple questions. And now, you have made it clear that you aren't interested in people that won't agree with your disjointed ravings, and, instead of having faith in your "supposed" Master's teachings, and humbly loving and not judging, you will dismiss us like so much garbage in search of those who would worship you, and your bastardized version of Christianity. You have your pearls on earth, and are content with that. Live it up. You will be the first among this group to lose your faith. k

Yes, it doesn't come naturally--that is why it is a command from Jesus Himself, the one with all authority---and it is a behaviour we can only do by the power of the Holy Spirit. Before the Holy Spirit came, we had the Son: same person! Those who heard the command from Jesus' own lips would certainly have been surprised by it, as it was not in the commandments given to Moses, but they would have been spurred on to obedience by the Son Himself! I know, I sure would have, if I was sitting at His feet and He told me that! When are you going to answer the post that's presented without going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said? I said that 'Love your enemy' is an ancient concept that pre-dates Christ. You, in your incredibly ignorant response, say that Jesus said it, I believe it, and that settles it. How does that even begin to address my question? The concept PRE-DATES Christ's words. Might that not mean that "Love your enemy' might come naturally by observation? k

Atheists are atheists because they don't want to be "shackled" by moral dilemnas You need to make up your mind. In Christianity, there are no moral dilemmas because Christian morality supposedly isn't based on relativism and all Christan's know exactly what to do at all times. If I didn't like moral dilemmas, I suppose I'd look for your church. But I say that your very statement is immoral. You are accusing a whole group of people of something that can't be backed up by anything but your own prejudice. Can you really, under your religion, judge others with such a sweeping and hateful condemnation as the one you made? I am an atheist. You are telling me that the only reason I am and atheist is because I can't deal with Christian morality? Well guess what? I have yet to run into an atheist that would say such a thing about any group. It is hateful, prejudicial, and divisive. If you like Christianity because it places you on the good guy side of the "us and them" equation, can I ask a favor of you? Can you please just tone it down a bit? Just long enough for the rest of us to come together in understanding? Atheists aren't atheists to be spiteful, atheists are atheists because the evidence is not there. Read it again if you have to. k

Science is the sum of human knowledge. Wisdom is another matter. That wasn't my point. I made it very plain that science doesn't know a whole lot and was asked if I was saying that science is absolutely useless. I asked how one could draw that conclusion from what I said. Was I given an answer? No. Only more indications that the simple concept I'd put forth was once again misunderstood! I can't believe that anyone could be that dense. Something else is going on here and it makes me angry that anyone would do that under a religious banner. Come on, how hard is it to understand that science doesn't know a lot, and that that statement is very different than saying that science is useless! Have I lost my mind?? And the point of my statement was that science was constantly revising what they trusted (put their faith in) as true...and that there were competing streams within science so they can't all be right. Thanks for proving the point. Are you TRYING to misunderstand? The definition of a scientific theory has been written here over and over and over and over again, yet you can't get it through your heads what it is. Why is that? I'm not talking about science. I'm talking about how impotent science is to explaining the supernatural. Not much difference in that and you talking about God. I agree with that 100% Does it make you happy to sound so desparately arrogant? I am not arrogant. Ignorant fits here. It isn't an assault on a person's intelligence, simply on their wish to ignore information. Are you trying to say that that isn't being done? k Evolution claims that all life evolved from a single living organism. Fish grew legs and walked upright and turned into monkeys which turned into humans. Just pointing out that it is still a theory missing some very important pieces of the puzzle and therefore can not be considered fact. If what you're saying were true, then I wouldn't believe it. Consider that, and either learn about what evolution actually says, or practice your ignorance. kinda like they did with bleeding as a medicinal cure? What do you think you're doing? Do you think you're debating the issue here? You are aware, of course, that there was no global scientific community at the time that science saw bleeding as beneficial. You know why they thought so? Because it MADE SENSE. Have you any idea how ironic it is that, before science decided not to invest their belief in what makes sense, they were making decisions on what to believe in exactly the same way that you are now?? Since Karl Popper, science no longer pays any attention at all to what MAKES SENSE. EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE IF YOU BELIEVE IT DOES. They no longer follow the path that leads to what sounds good, like you do. They follow the path that can't be proved false. They spend most of their time trying to disprove what they believe. It takes a long time to do that. That's why they aren't making discoveries all over the place by leaps and bounds. Had they done so at the time when bleeding was considered a viable treatment, they would have known that it wasn't a viable treatment. Do you understand? k

If you had really done your homework as claimed you would know for a fact that there have been at least 18 other saviors in mans history all of which predated Jesus. You would also know that if you compared many of the other saviors in mans history such as Buddha, Ishtar, Horus and others which predated Jesus their life histories are almost a carbon copy of Jesus himself. If you don't believe what you find online then do as I have always done and go to your local library. Are you aware that the following historians alive at the time of Jesus wrote not one word of him? How can this be. Jesus supposedly shook up the world. Apollonius Persius Appian Petronius Arrian Phaedrus Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus Columella Phlegon Damis Pliny the Elder Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger Dion Pruseus Plutarch Epictetus Pompon Mela Favorinus Ptolemy Florus Lucius Quintilian Hermogones Quintius Curtius Josephus Seneca Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus Juvenal Statius Lucanus Suetonius Lucian Tacitus Lysias Theon of Smyran Martial Valerius Flaccus Paterculus Valerius Maximus Pausanias Even the words of Josephus are considered forgeries. Do the homework as to why this is so.Remember atheists aren't atheists to be spitful , atheists are atheists because the evidence is not there. How is Budda's life a carbon copy of Jesus?. Please demonstrate how any of the others fulfilled all of the OT rophecies for the coming Jewish Messiah A possibility- 'Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive earthly men their trespasses neither will your Father forget your trespasses. Therefore all things whatsoever you would like that men should do to you, do them; for this is the law and the prophets.' And of course the popular quote: "You shall love your neighbor as yourselves." (Mark 12: 31) The Buddha reiterates whatever Christ puts forward and elaborates: 'Hard it is to understand: By giving away our food, we get more strength; by bestowing clothing on others, we gain more beauty; by founding abodes of purity and truth, we acquire great treasures. The charitable man has found the path of liberation. He is like the man who plants a sapling securing thereby the shade, the flowers and the fruit in future years. Even so is the result of charity, even so is the joy of him who helps those that are in need of assistance; even so is the great nirvana.' Religions have really cool things to say! k

I call people like you "Jesusists". (not Jesuits ) I know that you hold nothing in your heart but love for me because the message of Jesus in plain in your writing. You are the type of person that I might meet in life and wonder what makes you so special. Your fruits are your testimony, and more likely to break the heart of an atheist than trying to fight them into submission through earthly wisdom. Here's what just popped into my mind- 1 Corinthians 13 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. You have shown these words in action. k Cool thing that when you are presented with someone who rings true to you as a believer in Jesus Christ, the Word of God comes forth from you! Keep it up! And you as well. k

May I ask what is the Divine fount of this Wisdom? Sincerely does your Truth Trump the Truth of God Himself? You've fallen prey to Relativism. Your Truth has now become equivalent to the Truth of God Himself and any other Truth. Yet God commanded Adam not to eat from the Tree. Why? Because he became a God unto himself. As the Serpent has said; Ge

I call people like you "Jesusists". (not Jesuits ) I know that you hold nothing in your heart but love for me because the message of Jesus in plain in your writing. You are the type of person that I might meet in life and wonder what makes you so special. Your fruits are your testimony, and more likely to break the heart of an atheist than trying to fight them into submission through earthly wisdom. Here's what just popped into my mind- 1 Corinthians 13 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. You have shown these words in action. k

I thought you said that you were an atheist. If you do not believe that God exists, how can you have a relationship with Him and how can you ever become closer to Him? I see your point. I believe that the essence of human religions is relationship with God. If we build upon this relationship and become closer to God, we stand a better chance at knowing what His purpose for us is--and we each very well may have our own... So I won't pass judgment on any pagans, Hindus, or Jews. True, and very unfortunate. What does Hollywood have to say about it? But, yes, I agree that anyone can be moral at times. Well, I have no way of proving this given the pervasive influence of religion throughout the world, but socially and culturally, religion has made morality important for us. Morality is not just another consideration but (at least ideally) the first consideration precisely because most of us (currently and historically) do not consider it a human construct. For many people, many of these situations present great moral dilemmas. The presence of these dilemmas and the fact that different people have different senses of what is moral and what is not might suggest that morality is a human construct... or it might suggest that the world is difficult to navigate morally and this is the reason why most people are morally confused much of the time. In the situations you describe above, you implicitly take the position that the morning-after pill and embryonic stem cell research are not immoral and offer reasons (based on the circumstances) for why they are not immoral--the position that true morality is relative. Because, for you, true morality is relative and the morality presented in a certain religion is absolute, you see that religion as stifling morality in some situations (like these). But you are just as morally confused as anyone else, so it would be wrong for you to assume that that is the case. You (rightfully) remind Christians not to pass judgment on others, but you implicitly pass judgment on someone who refuses to support the morning after pill or stem cell research on moral grounds.

That would be interesting, to say the least. It would mean that those pollens actually survived from one period to another. k There was no pollen in precambrian times. So the pollen couldnt have been in that shale to begin with. You wanted an example of a later fossil found in earlier rock, and I gave you one. Was this pollen found in the Grand Canyon? k

You GET to do this as an atheist? Under the influence of whom? God! Such a silly statement in the face of the truth that I have to laugh tonight! Confidence in dogma is not what I have---I have confidence in the person of Jesus Christ, whose Word by His Spirit has given us all these wonderful attributes listed above! It is knowing Christ that we love others and follow after Him in obedience. It doesn't come naturally...if you disbelieve in God, then why do you follow after His Word? It is impossible to do and be all these things without the Holy Spirit's guidance and power in us. By the way, under atheism, I get to appreciate the beauty of Islam. Can you say that? k

You GET to do this as an atheist? Under the influence of whom? God! Such a silly statement in the face of the truth that I have to laugh tonight! Confidence in dogma is not what I have---I have confidence in the person of Jesus Christ, whose Word by His Spirit has given us all these wonderful attributes listed above! It is knowing Christ that we love others and follow after Him in obedience. It doesn't come naturally...if you disbelieve in God, then why do you follow after His Word? It is impossible to do and be all these things without the Holy Spirit's guidance and power in us. It doesn't come naturally? Then why is love your enemy such an ancient concept? If the guidance of the Holy Spirit is such a requirement, then how did these concepts occur before Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to humans? k

That would be interesting, to say the least. It would mean that those pollens actually survived from one period to another. k

You are a breath of fresh air, my friend. And how would you know that I don't have that relationship? How do you know that the wisdom of human religions isn't the essence of what God's purpose for us might be? How do you know that Islam and Judaism and paganism and Buddhism and Hinduism aren't human interpretations of the truth, but also include cultural miscues that make them worldly? I respectfully disagree, but thank you profoundly for your words because they help me to make my point, if I have one. It has been said that God created all of us with His sense of morality in our hearts. Some listen to this, and some don't so much. There have been absolutely transcendental examples of morality in people of all religions, and even of those without one. Selfless devotion to justice and righteousness aren't the sole property of any one religion, but selfish injustice also has examples in all religions. A high school football star who was destined for greatness in the NFL decided to join the military because he wanted to sacrifice what would easily have been millions of dollars doing something he loved in order to serve his country. This Tillman fellow was a devout atheist, but he had this moral sense. It might seem ridiculous to Christians that an atheist would do such a thing, but it isn't ridiculous to me at all. Believe me, theists don't corner the market on morality no matter what Hollywood likes to say. Morality is a human construction, and, believe it or not, the introduction of a religion actually stifles its absolute impact. I might decide to give money to an institution that fights the disease of AIDS and has the greatest success rate of any other, but I might also find that they support the morning after pill. Suddenly, my morality isn't based on AIDS or the terrible things that happen to children and all sorts of people and the global epidemic that is spread largely because of misinformation. Suddenly, my opinion is all about what my religion tells me, and I will withhold my support because of religious reasons. I might have a favorite aunt who is suffering from a spinal chord injury, but I might see embryonic stem cell research as being wrong because of my flavor of religion and my aunt will never walk again. Meanwhile, those embryos will be unceremoniously burned in the furnace in back of the medical building. No fanfare, no funeral, no help for my aunt. I might decide, while being a Muslim in Palestine, that there is no reason to kill innocent people in Israel. I might decide that the people who took me to a prison in another country to be tortured because it isn't illegal there are representing the great Satan, or I could reason that they don't know what they're doing. I could love my homosexual neighbor and allow that he find happiness, or I could tell him regularly that he will burn in a hell that isn't even alluded to in the Old Testament. In other words, I might believe in a God that at least smarter than I am, and is certainly smarter than the God's I've checked out. k

it's not that hard once you understand the science behind it Good one! just trying to help you understand why hardly anyone here would be interested in trying to "prove God" using science. Could have fooled me. I was quoting you who said it can't take us very far. You had resposponded to my comment that it could take us far in this world. Do you remember it yet? Gloves are off from here on in. I can't believe that you can get yourself up in the morning if you can't see how ridiculous what you just said would be to a hammock. I'm thinking that you're either drunk or insane. You need to think about what I'm saying. Science can't take us very far in this world. It can't. How could it? It is a discipline that requires that nothing is certain, and only things that always work even get to be called theories. Science explains a very small percentage of all possible knowledge. well I can see that!??! Nice retort, but I suppose you are afraid to actually reply to what followed. Oh c'mon....are you trying to say that no people who considered themselves scientists ever thought the world was flat? There was more than a Pope upset with Galileo and Copernicus Do yourself a favor and read what the other person writes. Scientists used to think that bleeding was a good thing for cryin' out loud. Like I said, science knows very little. Karl Popper did science a great favor my introducing falsification. That didn't happen very long ago, but it is absolutely scientific methodology nowadays. If you want to know what science is (which would help you greatly in debating about it) why don't you study what science might be these days? If you don't, then why are you talking about something that you know nothing about? Does it make you happy to sound so desperately ignorant? The Vatican? Yes. Hard to argue that so I won't. I don't recognize the Vatican as any kind of authority or "voice" for all believers. It is a political entity for running the Roman Catholic empire. I'm not surprised. Isaiah mentioned the sphere of the Earth centuries before the birth of Yeshua. Isaiah? Isaiah said that the earth was a disk which is exactly what every other person of the day thought. because it is outside the realm of science It is outside of the scope of science, yes. If I have a microscope, then I can't be expected to look at a building through it, can I? Am I being dismissive? or practical? And if I don't say that the building doesn't exist just because I can't see it through my microscope, why do you say that I do? He has said that only those who seek Him with their whole heart will find Him. Yea...He's tricky that way Okay. the order of Creation is supported by scientific claims. For Moses to have gotten the order right is of infantecimal odds. I have these discussions with christians all the time. "Yom" is rendered as "day" in the Bible but is not a specific length of time (such as 24 hours). It can be .06 nanoseconds or it can be 60 trillion years. Each Yom (day) of the Creation story can be of a different length using the original languages instead of an english translation. However, evolution is called a "theory" for a reason. So far evolutionists have never been able to show where one species turned into a another species anywhere on the evolutionary chain. And if you throw a fish on the shore a billion times a day for a billion years it isn't going to grow legs and lungs. You are only going to have a lot of dead fish. I think you need to stop arguing about evolution because you aren't willing to read what it's all about. When there is a Triassic fossil found in a Jurassic layer, then evolution will cease to be even a theory. It isn't all that difficult to disprove evolution. There is only one way that what I'm saying isn't true and that would be if all of the scientists of the world, no matter what their religious or political or whatever affiliation, had decided to agree to fool the entire world and, no matter what is discovered, in whatever discipline of science, evolution would be supported no matter what. Thousands of scientists all over the world of different backgrounds and different religions would have had to agree to this secret pact. All of the discoveries, which include the discovery and study of DNA and RNA, would have to have agreed to make sure that evolution was supported by everything they discovered. What are the odds of that? k

This is interesting. Care to start a thread to share this "profound truth" about "the dynamics of how religion works," or do you think sharing this knowledge is too dangerous--that it would violently rip the blinds off the heads of the faithful on this forum and create cataclysm that would ripple throughout the Christian, Islamic, and Hindu worlds destroying everything in its path? (Sorry if you answered this already. I haven't been following this thread.) First of all, I LOVE the way you turn a phrase! I'm not sure I want to go into it on a Christian board. Not necessarily for the reasons you describe, but because it is my truth, and my truth only. Others may share it, but none here wil, so it would only be fodder for negative reactions that I couldn't possibly counter. k But you said "once you understand the dynamic of [how religion works]", implying that anyone who knows what you know cannot be fooled by religion... like knowing how a magic trick works makes it so that it isn't magic for you. Sure--if you share this secret knowledge and understanding you possess that places you above religion, then you will get a negative reaction... but I doubt it will be any more negative than the reaction you've already gotten.... Good point, but I don't think I've gotten a negative reaction here. I respect your faith, and as a matter of fact, am trying to defend it to the best of my ability. It is, after all, a faith. But it isn't only Christian boards that I post on. I go to Islamic boards, and Judaic boards, and even pagan boards. I defend their faiths as well, because they are faiths and I am fortunate enough to be an American and don't believe in authoritarianism of any kind. What I find is that religious people are absolutely devoted to their Gods and are very happy with their interpretations of death, illness, incapacitation, ill fortune and the like. Religious traditions that have been around for a very long time will provide a worldview that provides comfort in times of trial and tribulation because each and every hardship has been incorporated into the religion and a way to interpret that hardship within a comforting frame of reference that has already been considered and supplied. How else could the populations of the middle ages have dealt with an extremely rich class while they rotted? How else could the dusty bands in the Middle East find contentment with their insanely rich leadership? How else could the American poor not go on a rampage as their incomes and benefits for their labor increasingly be siphoned off to shareholders and the corporate few? Allah has ordained it. Do you think that the Mullah's of the Middle East really believe in suicide bombing? Do you think that Jerry Falwell really believes in the teachings of Christ? I look at Gandhi and see a man who absolutely SCREAMS "JESUS", because he is willing to live the life of the faithful, and I look at Benny Hinn and wonder to which religion he might be referring with his life. I look at Christians that love their enemy, unless their enemy needs health benefits for their children, and I look at Jesus who had nothing, wanted nothing, didn't count the pennies, didn't chastise others because they were sinners and wonder "What, exactly, is God's will on earth?" Know what I get to do as an atheist? I get to love the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus, the pagans, the other atheists, the whole of humanity! I get to love my neighbor as myself, I get to love my enemies, I get to render unto Caesar what is Cesar's, I get to judge not, I get to not be proud, but humble, I get to see myself as imperfect, yet love myself, I get to insure as best as I can that everyone gets a fair say in things, I get to investigate the most incredible claims, and give them all the credibility that any new idea deserves, and I get to say that they are wrong because of their merits, not because of my own confidence in some dogma. In other words, I can be much more what these religions preach without them. They all have very favorable wisdom within their traditions, but they also include ridiculous man-made requirements that only serve to separate humanity into arbitrary groups of good guys and bad guys. We are all good. We all do what we think is best. If we are influenced by a lack of education or goods or services, then we will all do what's best for those we love. Religions seem to fight against that equality on the grounds that there are certain chosen people who God blesses. I don't have to listen to such silliness. "THERE, BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, GO I" is probably the most profound statement ever spoken. Not because of what it says, but because of what it means. Were my life to have unfolded as that other person's, I would be in exactly their position, because there is nothing special about me that might make me better than them, or make different choices based on the options. Live in your little communities of Christianity, but remember this- there is no OUTSIDE- only other people. Like you. k

Okay, I give up. My responses will be in blue- Maybe but I'm not interested. It is a waste of time on an irrelevant subject. In other words... Not right now.

That is a very good question. I am fortunate that I am no longer living in such a place where street violence and drugs are prevalent. Matter of fact, I don't suppose I'll ever see anyone doing cocaine again in my life. But I honestly can't answer you because I know that I couldn't do it without the help of some perceived power greater than myself. The tempter in that story was kind of an oaf. "I'll give you these plots of land when you already own the earth, the universe, and the Kingdom of God". "Hey, here's an idea- jump off of this cliff, and angels will catch you, wouldn't that be a rush?" Just between you and me, the Satan of that story must have been stoned. "Hey, you seem hungry. Why don't you make some food out of these rocks?" I mean, COME ON! The Son of God is going to start His ministry, and will follow the rules in order to do so, and someone else has to suggest to Him that He could make food? Like He hadn't already been aware of that? I always wondered about that story.

I'm not trying to over analyze your post here. However I will say that it sounds kinda (to borrow a phrase from Yod) Clinical. When in reality I have found my Faith and Relationship with the Lord to be REAL and kinda MESSY. I am the one making a mess out of it. It was done in haste. I assure you that your description sounds familiar. My friend Jesus would be very proud of me at times. He celebrated my every victory over the flesh with me. Once again, sounds familiar, except that I'd been raised knowing that I needed a savior. You are preaching to a former choir member. In this case I can see how your experience may have been a mean one. God has asked us to set aside everything else and put Him first. This is actually hard, real, and messy. To seek after the Kingdom of Heaven and not our happiness. The Blessing of Peace follows on the heals of Obedience. Yet still and all Jesus hasn't promised us ,"No trouble", in the world. However what He has promised is that He has overcome the world. We too shall, Yet not always will it be wrapped up into a neat little box because we are real and so is He and He understands our nature. This is why He has given us a new one. Joh

This is interesting. Care to start a thread to share this "profound truth" about "the dynamics of how religion works," or do you think sharing this knowledge is too dangerous--that it would violently rip the blinds off the heads of the faithful on this forum and create cataclysm that would ripple throughout the Christian, Islamic, and Hindu worlds destroying everything in its path? (Sorry if you answered this already. I haven't been following this thread.) First of all, I LOVE the way you turn a phrase! I'm not sure I want to go into it on a Christian board. Not necessarily for the reasons you describe, but because it is my truth, and my truth only. Others may share it, but none here wil, so it would only be fodder for negative reactions that I couldn't possibly counter. k

Southern California, 46. k