khalou

I thank you for your point of view Secondeve, yet I am alittle confused athiests already believe they are in control of their own destiny, they freely divorse without concerns for spirtitual repercussion. Everything you listed aside from gay marriage (minus a few states) they can do and have been doing freely. All those things are what atheism is offering to a Christian if they turn away from God? Atheism is not giving these freedoms, those freedoms are already given to all! I believe God gave us all the freedom to choose, and I don't begrudge anyone that right but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with the choices some make. Yes it is a Christians belief in God that guides us in many of the choices we make, and we are happy to have His guidence! Why does atheism persist to begrudge us the right to disagree with them? They can't just say fine you believe in God and I don't that is your right, nope they can't do that instead they make movies and write books trying to disprove God. God BLess! Butting in, but speaking as a person who's been in both worlds, there are pluses and minuses to each. The biggest difference I noticed, and I can't overemphasize the hugeness of this, is that the entire universe changes when you lose your faith. Imagine living in a universe that was created by a Figure that loves you more than any other entity is capable of loving you. Matter of fact, the very definition of love is this Creator. One of his incarnations is His Son, Jesus, who is with you always- always standing there within reach. Always insuring that whatever happens to you is within your ability to handle (my yoke is light). If you falter, or fall, He will forgive you if you love Him, and put you on the right path. Another incarnation is the Holy Spirit that can illuminate the Word of God and amplify the transcendental wisdom for your human mind to the point that whenever you go to the Word, you will find an answer, which is sometimes "you are wrong", but is never "I don't love you anymore". Now, imagine a universe that came about my natural means where there is nothing but you, the world, and those few human beings that you might share a connection with. When you are alone, you are alone! There is nothing that insures that justice is done in your life, nor is there any method of knowing truth beyond your own animal ability according to your own perceptions which are limited to the five senses, and your natural intellect. There is no central authority that can intercede in your disagreements and finally say what is right except the law, and the law loves no one and is also limited by the animal mind. It took me a very long time to get used to the silence of being an atheist. My Dad, my Big Brother, and my Teacher had all left me. They'd always been there before, every second of my life. I was too old to get used to that immediately and went through some changes. But now, I can see the benefits of this reality, this universe. I won't go into them here, because I'm not interested in promoting atheism here. I will say that, while I miss that former comfort, I prefer this one at this time. It isn't about what I can now get away with that I couldn't formerly- that's not what it's about. Matter of fact, I don't get to be forgiven so easily anymore, and so must be very careful how I live my life as far as my fellow man is concerned. They're all I've got and I'm certainly not going to hurt them in any way if I can help it. I hope there is some new perspective in this post for y'all. k

The tests for truth weren't the same as the are these days. Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry. There are other reasons to think that the gospels were written later, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, some more convincing than others. I don't think stories about hundreds of people who witnessed these things at that late date was for the purpose of making them seem more true. I don't think that that was a problem by then. I think it is only nowadays that such demands for evidence are important. I really believe that the early Christians circa the late first and early second century understood that these things had been written more recently than when they actually happened, and believed they were true through faith. Could be wrong, but the writers of the gospels never identify themselves. I don't know who placed the titles of the books where they were (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and even Christian historians have to speculate about this. Just my 2 cents. k

I remember Josh from my Christian days as being a very good public speaker on the subject of sex to young people. If I see the book at a store, I will buy it, but I have so many books to read right now, it will probably be awhile before I can crack it open. But that wasn't the only website that criticizes the scholarship of that book. Remember, my qualification of a good conclusion consists more on what could prove it wrong than a list of reasons to believe it. k

Yes, K, unfortunately, most people who come here claiming they're atheists only want to argue. If that's not you, I'm glad. Well, I won't say I'm not into arguing. But only respectfully with regard to others' beliefs. k

Any my apologies. I'm a guest here and, when there is a misunderstanding, it is probably my fault. k

That's nice, Khalou. Thanks. I was beginning to think that I'd lost my mind. I guess you guys have run into some pretty agressive atheists. k

Like I said. That's all you read? What was my answer?? I do not believe that theists are "delusional" and argue against athiests who say so. I do not believe that atheists' "worldly observations" address the whole truth (in the minds of the atheists) and argue against Christians who think so. Those phrases were chosen to show the lack of respect on both sides of the other. How could you read what I wrote and think otherwise? k Sorry. I'm sure it was my fault for not being clear. Thought I was. If people who are much smarter and more educated than me are Christians, then who am I to say that they are delusional? I thought that was obvious. Apperently it wasn't. k

Like I said. That's all you read? What was my answer?? I do not believe that theists are "delusional" and argue against athiests who say so. I do not believe that atheists' "worldly observations" address the whole truth (in the minds of the atheists) and argue against Christians who think so. Those phrases were chosen to show the lack of respect on both sides of the other. How could you read what I wrote and think otherwise? k

What an oxymoronic reputation! Why do you do that? Because the truth is important. If someone rejects Christianity, it should be based on an understanding of what they're rejecting, not some misinformation about it. One thing people need to realize is that there are many, many, many incredibly intelligent and well educated people who are Christians, so some lay person's perceptions of the religion that are based on ignorance shouldn't be allowed to turn people from the faith. That wouldn't be ethical. There is no way to disprove the validity of Christianity. Of that I'm convinced. I would have to be the most brilliant, and most educated person to have ever lived in order to trust my own perceptions enough to dismiss Christianity, or ANY religion, based on my own intellect. But I hold the same standards to Christians. If their belief is based on facts that aren't true, then they could easily lose that faith. It their faith is based on misinformation, and no matter what facts are presented (and I mean REAL facts- like "drop a ball, and it falls), and they dismiss them based on their faith, then that is simply ignorance. I don't suppose God really cared whether or not Galileo was correct, but the Church did for some inexplicable reason. Except that maybe the Church had built their faith on sand in the first place with regard to a geo-centric, static, central location of the Earth. Somewhere in all this debate and discussion is a place where knowledge and understanding can flourish and neither side just shuns the opinion of the other outright. That is the place of confidence, and mutual respect. Why should an atheist respect the delusions of a theist? Why should a theist respect the worldly observations of an atheist? Because without understanding of the other's viewpoint, neither can fully experience confidence in their own truth. If evolution being shown to be true would shake your faith, then your faith is based on sand. If the God of the Christians makes perfect sense and your worldview is based on the idea that He doesn't, then your sensibility is based on sand. The two opinions are so diametrically opposed that the best that can be hoped for is at least an accurate view of the other's beliefs, and what those beliefs are based on. k Your addition to the truth spoken on Worthyboards just muddies the waters. How so? k

What?? Did you read what I said? I do NOT believe that your beliefs are delusional. That's the point of the whole thing! k

Bad ol' sin. Life isn't about being just good or bad, it's about having Christ in your heart or not . Now, what if it's a good person that is a christian? While I can't honestly explain correctly how God thinks( hey, He is God, I am a single human being) , God did address some part of this subject in The Bible, or at least something you might find interesting . 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. Also, 1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; I need to state something, when we accept God as our Savior, while most of us expect life to be easy, it will not be easy, God didn't promised(that I know of) an easy life, He did promised however, to be there with Us, also He's main promess(that He will fulfill) is that whoever believed in Him, will have everlasting life in Heaven. There is only one promise I've ever found in the Bible as far as life on this earth is concerned. That we will be granted peace. The reason that peace passes all understanding is because it is not based on circumstances. A Christian who finds him (or her) self in the midst of horrible suffering will be granted this peace, and others will marvel and wonder where this peace comes from. I understand that. I want to know what happened to you, by the way it looks like, something very bad must have happened, I and most of us are willing to hear you. While maybe we won't fully understand you, we will try to with God's help. And I thank you for that. Something did happen, and it has lots to do with my last statement in this post. I may get to it sometime, but I have never been able to explain it sufficently to Christians in a way that they would understand. I'm therefore reluctant to do so here. It isn't a lack on the part of the Christians, I'm sure. It must be a lack of my ability to convey the concept. But even so, it wasn't what made me an atheist. Add another person to the list , I never believed in Santa Claus. But hope the conversation is not over though, I am interested in this discussion. GBU All. Me too. Wow. It happened again. I suppose you could read my responses that occur right after your bolded statements? k

Bad ol' sin. Life isn't about being just good or bad, it's about having Christ in your heart or not . Now, what if it's a good person that is a christian? While I can't honestly explain correctly how God thinks( hey, He is God, I am a single human being) , God did address some part of this subject in The Bible, or at least something you might find interesting . 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. Also, 1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; I need to state something, when we accept God as our Savior, while most of us expect life to be easy, it will not be easy, God didn't promised(that I know of) an easy life, He did promised however, to be there with Us, also He's main promess(that He will fulfill) is that whoever believed in Him, will have everlasting life in Heaven. There is only one promise I've ever found in the Bible as far as life on this earth is concerned. That we will be granted peace. The reason that peace passes all understanding is because it is not based on circumstances. A Christian who finds him (or her) self in the midst of horrible suffering will be granted this peace, and others will marvel and wonder where this peace comes from. I understand that. I want to know what happened to you, by the way it looks like, something very bad must have happened, I and most of us are willing to hear you. While maybe we won't fully understand you, we will try to with God's help. And I thank you for that. Something did happen, and it has lots to do with my last statement in this post. I may get to it sometime, but I have never been able to explain it sufficently to Christians in a way that they would understand. I'm therefore reluctant to do so here. It isn't a lack on the part of the Christians, I'm sure. It must be a lack of my ability to convey the concept. But even so, it wasn't what made me an atheist. Add another person to the list , I never believed in Santa Claus. But hope the conversation is not over though, I am interested in this discussion. GBU All. Me too.

What an oxymoronic reputation! Why do you do that? Because the truth is important. If someone rejects Christianity, it should be based on an understanding of what they're rejecting, not some misinformation about it. One thing people need to realize is that there are many, many, many incredibly intelligent and well educated people who are Christians, so some lay person's perceptions of the religion that are based on ignorance shouldn't be allowed to turn people from the faith. That wouldn't be ethical. There is no way to disprove the validity of Christianity. Of that I'm convinced. I would have to be the most brilliant, and most educated person to have ever lived in order to trust my own perceptions enough to dismiss Christianity, or ANY religion, based on my own intellect. But I hold the same standards to Christians. If their belief is based on facts that aren't true, then they could easily lose that faith. It their faith is based on misinformation, and no matter what facts are presented (and I mean REAL facts- like "drop a ball, and it falls), and they dismiss them based on their faith, then that is simply ignorance. I don't suppose God really cared whether or not Galileo was correct, but the Church did for some inexplicable reason. Except that maybe the Church had built their faith on sand in the first place with regard to a geo-centric, static, central location of the Earth. Somewhere in all this debate and discussion is a place where knowledge and understanding can flourish and neither side just shuns the opinion of the other outright. That is the place of confidence, and mutual respect. Why should an atheist respect the delusions of a theist? Why should a theist respect the worldly observations of an atheist? Because without understanding of the other's viewpoint, neither can fully experience confidence in their own truth. If evolution being shown to be true would shake your faith, then your faith is based on sand. If the God of the Christians makes perfect sense and your worldview is based on the idea that He doesn't, then your sensibility is based on sand. The two opinions are so diametrically opposed that the best that can be hoped for is at least an accurate view of the other's beliefs, and what those beliefs are based on. k

I'm sorry. You are correct. The "site" is probably against Christianity. Actually, I wasn't familiar with it, but I am now. k

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How does the link oppose Christianity? It opposes a book written poorly by a man who does his religion no service by being inaccurate. And even if it isn't true, it is only a commentary on the wisdom of a man. I think Christianity can stand easily in spite of any human disagreement about facts and logic. k

I could write that over 500 witnesses witnessed something, but if none of them write it down, then basically there are no other witnesses but me. You see, if what you say is true, then the church would have also said it in their defense. They chose to say that satan created copycat religions prior to Christ in order to fool people. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm just saying that there isn't any evidence that it happened except what's written in the gospels, which were written much later. "Josh McDowell is merely an exercise in after-the-fact rationalization of beliefs held on prior emotional grounds." *Absolutely no links to that site********* This site requires a lot of reading that most probably won't do, and I don't blame them. But Josh is, at the very least, unconvincing. k That link is hogwash. I am surprised the mods haven't deleted it. Hogwash? To what end? It is a critique of a popular book by others. To put this into perspective, I read a book called "The Jesus Mysteries" that tried to say that original Christianity was, indeed a Pagan religion. It was very convincing until I read a critique of the book. I no longer believe what the original book said because the critique was well done. I always read critiques of popular books that try to say interesting things. Don't you? Another was "The DaVinci Code". I don't believe the concepts that were put forth in that book for the same reason. This is why science demands falsification. Anyone can show evidence to believe something- ANYTHING- and stack up thousands of reasons to believe that thing no matter what it is. And why would the moderators delete a link? It's not like people have to believe what it says. It is simply information that the reader can take into consideration. k

Jesus addresses this issue. Mat 13:10 And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them. Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance. But whoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he has. Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand. Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive; Mat 13:15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. Mat 13:17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them. As in every other of the Mystery religions of the time, there were stories for the masses, and an inner circle that was privy to the deeper truths of those stories. But I was speaking about other things- How is it that Mark's Jesus predicts the times of the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem with incredible accuracy, but then goes on to predict His return "within this generation"? Could it be because Mark had already seen the times of the destruction, and believed that Jesus would return so soon? Another thing- Mark speaks about the Pharisees noticing that some of the Disciples were eating with unclean hands- not having washed. Interestingly, during Jesus' time, only the Priests practiced this custom, but after the destruction of the Temple, the hand-washing custom was prevalent among all. Mark obviously wasn't aware of how things were during the time of Christ. The list of inconsistencies goes on and on. Why would God want so many mistakes like this in His Bible? The Pharisees is the most interesting aspect of all. The Pharisees were the "party of the people". They would have taken a "wait and see" stance on any messianic claimant, and wouldn't care much about their place in society. It was the Sadducees that were given authority by Rome and would have been jumpy about such a claimant because, remember, the only messiah that was understood by the people was that of an earthly king that would conquer Rome and the earth. Under the Roman authority, the Pharisees would have to have kept a low profile. If the gospels were written to appease a Roman conquerer, as is likely, then the Pharisees as the bad guys would be more appropriate, but historically, it doesn't make sense. k

I could write that over 500 witnesses witnessed something, but if none of them write it down, then basically there are no other witnesses but me. You see, if what you say is true, then the church would have also said it in their defence. They chose to say that satan created copycat religions prior to Christ in order to fool people. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm just saying that there isn't any evidence that it happened except what's written in the gospels, which were written much later. "Josh McDowell is merely an exercise in after-the-fact rationalization of beliefs held on prior emotional grounds." *Absolutely no links to that site******* This site requires a lot of reading that most probably won't do, and I don't blame them. But Josh is, at the very least, unconvincing. k

I am not here to change your mind, only to insure that what you believe is accurate according to all that is known. If you are determined to believe what you have written, then go ahead on. If you would like to know what Moses thought of what he wrote in genesis, then there is a lot of information that you may not have yet heard. The thing is, if your faith is based on such things as Moses knowing about a devil, then your faith is in jeopardy. My own faith was based on such things, and I've since lost it. If you'd rather not lose your faith, then post no further. k You really don't know whereof your speak. You pretend to be wise with us who know God? I think not. You are a doubtmonger, and the Lord has something to say about the likes of those. Go peddle your doubt somewhere else, because you are far from being a seeker. So, because I post what I've learned which you haven't, I'm not a seeker? Why haven't you ever heard of what the Jews have always believed and why? How can you blaspheme truth in such a way? It doesn't bother you that I am merely looking for an answer to what I've learned, and yet you call me a pretender? If you have information against what I've said, then present it. If you don't, then don't accuse me of pretending to be wise. I assure you that I am not. Admit it. You have never even heard of these things before. If you had, you would have an answer. All you have is accusations and an offering that I leave. I suppose Jesus should have said that to the tax collector? Well, He didn't. He loved the tax collector, which made all the difference. I'm just going to have to assume that, either you have no explaination, and wish that I would just go away, or that you have based your faith on sand, and would rather not deal with me. k I usually do not enter anything in these kind of posts for they seem so contraversial and hateful. But I have to admit I do not see a whole lot of love being thrown around toward you and I want to extend my hand to you with the love of Christ for I know He loves you in every way and no matter what you say or do will ever change that. You say you were once a believer in Christ and you no longer believe, I seem to see in some of the things you write you still believe but you are actually trying not to. I am only saying that the little thing in you that is saying so much truth still lies in your heart and if you would just reach out to that truth it will prevail in your life. I do not know what has happened in your life that has made you decide to try and believe another way but I pray the Lord work in your heart to help you to reach to our God whom loves you very very much no matter what you say or do in Jesus' name!! Thank you. k

By your logic newton is not testable and is therefore non-exsistant, and let me explain why. Both God and Newtons laws are factual and hold ground when scrutinized, both Newton and God have a history that is recorded in books written by them, or people that knew them very well. Both Newton and God have been seen by humans and their accounts have been recorded. Why is it that you can say Newton exsisted and not say God exsists? Is it because there is a tombstone with his name? Have you ever seen his body? I disagree with this statment that God is not testable just as much as I disagree with the statment that Newton is untestable. Yes there is, read it again. It is as plain as the nose on your face. Really? Then how come Christians can't agree on it? Stop arguing with me and talk to me. Did I suggest that? Or are you twisting what I said around to mean something it's not? My statment was that people behave certain ways and the bible shows a map of all possible behavior patterns but you can take whatever you want out of it. [A] Hardly what? If you repress your emotions it is a sign your not really trusting God with your prayer, therefore your not really praying but worrying out loud. [C]What isn't healthy? [D]Really? How do you know what it is like for a person of faith when you don't believe yourself? I can tell you what my experience was living in a trailer 5 years ago, but just because I didn't like it doesn't mean it's bad to live in trailers. [E]I thought there perceptions were different. [F1]Then why aren't you a christian if it works so well, and why don't you doubt that it works?[F2] Do you think there could be the possibility that it could be both? or neither?

Bad ol' sin. Life isn't about being just good or bad, it's about having Christ in your heart or not . Now, what if it's a good person that is a christian? While I can't honestly explain correctly how God thinks( hey, He is God, I am a single human being) , God did address some part of this subject in The Bible, or at least something you might find interesting . 1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. Also, 1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; I need to state something, when we accept God as our Savior, while most of us expect life to be easy, it will not be easy, God didn't promised(that I know of) an easy life, He did promised however, to be there with Us, also He's main promess(that He will fulfill) is that whoever believed in Him, will have everlasting life in Heaven. I want to know what happened to you, by the way it looks like, something very bad must have happened, I and most of us are willing to hear you. While maybe we won't fully understand you, we will try to with God's help. Add another person to the list , I never believed in Santa Claus. But hope the conversation is not over though, I am interested in this discussion. GBU All. This is the rephrase, hope that helps out, if you don't understand what I said, I would be more than happy to redo it again . GBY All, Cell. Excellent! and thank you! I could have gotten by just by reading the bolded parts, and I'm grateful that you went to the trouble of cleaning it up. I'll try to get to it tomorrow, it's late. k

I am not here to change your mind, only to insure that what you believe is accurate according to all that is known. If you are determined to believe what you have written, then go ahead on. If you would like to know what Moses thought of what he wrote in genesis, then there is a lot of information that you may not have yet heard. The thing is, if your faith is based on such things as Moses knowing about a devil, then your faith is in jeopardy. My own faith was based on such things, and I've since lost it. If you'd rather not lose your faith, then post no further. k You really don't know whereof your speak. You pretend to be wise with us who know God? I think not. You are a doubtmonger, and the Lord has something to say about the likes of those. Go peddle your doubt somewhere else, because you are far from being a seeker. So, because I post what I've learned which you haven't, I'm not a seeker? Why haven't you ever heard of what the Jews have always believed and why? How can you blaspheme truth in such a way? It doesn't bother you that I am merely looking for an answer to what I've learned, and yet you call me a pretender? If you have information against what I've said, then present it. If you don't, then don't accuse me of pretending to be wise. I assure you that I am not. Admit it. You have never even heard of these things before. If you had, you would have an answer. All you have is accusations and an offering that I leave. I suppose Jesus should have said that to the tax collector? Well, He didn't. He loved the tax collector, which made all the difference. I'm just going to have to assume that, either you have no explaination, and wish that I would just go away, or that you have based your faith on sand, and would rather not deal with me. k

Genesis 22. An example of a man who was tried, and who trusted in the Lord, and who was rewarded for his faith, a faith made stronger by his experience with the Lord. That man was treated differently than I was by the Lord. Abraham was the father of the chosen race. I am not, and neither are you. Matter of fact, the faith of the Jews is now changed by Christianity by people like you through misinterpretation of the original text, and an obvious disregard for Jewish instance that not one ancient Hebrew ever heard of a devil or a hell. Isaiah didn't speak of the Messiah. Isaiah spoke of the king of Babylon. Of that there is no question. Except for how Christians interpret what was said. For verse after verse was all about the Babylonian king, then (according to Christians) he suddenly speaks of the coming Christ, and then immediately returns to a dialog about the Babylonian king. If you are comfortable with that, then so be it. Of course, if God is God, then anything is possible, but the question remains- why would God want to make it so difficult to believe the truth? Is faith in God such an important thing that normally sensible people must ignore what a ten year old would see as ridiculous is fact in order to maintain their faith? Why would a God set it up that way? And, by the way, the people who are telling me otherwise don't even know about the facts that I've studied. Is that the best that a God can do? Provide people that haven't even heard of the opposing facts? yet believe, and judge me accordingly? k

I am not here to change your mind, only to insure that what you believe is accurate according to all that is known. If you are determined to believe what you have written, then go ahead on. If you would like to know what Moses thought of what he wrote in genesis, then there is a lot of information that you may not have yet heard. The thing is, if your faith is based on such things as Moses knowing about a devil, then your faith is in jeopardy. My own faith was based on such things, and I've since lost it. If you'd rather not lose your faith, then post no further. k